Is this fair? (roulette)

I know the casinos can do whatever they want, I got that. When I play during the day, there is a guy that comes in and plays big. He'll drop 10K like its nothing, probably 5 days a week. I'm not saying he loses 10K but he's willing to.

Anyways, (the guy hates smoke) when he sits down, floor runs over and puts the sign down, non-smoking table. When he leaves, the sign comes off the table. What if a dollar chip player did not like smoke? Would that sign still come out? NOPE! Ken

Ya know...it's not fair, and...
Ya know...money talks...and loud money talks loud.
If a dollar player wants to enjoy a smoke, then match the high-roller's action, - cash on the barrel, else, take a break at the bar for a quick puff.

You walk into a [smoking] casino and you might expect to enjoy a smoke while playing.
Usually as a dollar player, - but always as a 10K player.

In Nevada, casinos are not truly public or government businesses, they're privately operated company businesses, and as such, yes, they can reset table limits and table rules [such as smoking] on an "ad hoc" and "as needed" basis - even on a whim of the shift manager - as "table needs" change as determined by the pit. And what determines that need is the wishes of the biggest action on the table, within reason. A dollar player's nicotine fit is not that important, because he can grab a puff away from the table, or chew on a peice of nicotine gum. As a matter of fact, a dollar Roulette player is just not that important at all. Shoot, the Klondike Casino on Boulder Highway and Sunset Road has a 10c Roulette wheel, and nobody complains about nothing...can they?...about what? They just gamble. We dealers have to walk to the parking lot on break for a smoke, if we smoke, and can't smoke at the tables, obviously, while having people blow smoke at us. We don't say, "oh, the horrors." We say, "WTF - next deal, place your bets."

Other states may be different, like New Jersey. Not here.

From a rich man's point of view - life is fair - as money talks.
I used to be the first to say, "It sucks - don't it! It's So unfair - the injustice of it all!" But playing with [or dealing to] either smoking or non-smoking players - doesn't matter....win or lose for the player, and if he tips...that matters...casinos see money earned the same way.

IMO, no way its fair. One rule for everyone. Ken

Quote: mrjjj

IMO, no way its fair. One rule for everyone. Ken

I agreed with you, but I said it was not "nominally" fair.
One rule for everyone? Would you do away with the VIP check-in counters for high-rollers, better comps for high rollers, even though you play $1 a hand - right next to someone who buys in at $10,000? Certainly you cannot expect to look the same to the casino operators?

Casinos will argue that "you get what you pay for" and in that is the fairness. You get comped an Egg salad sanwich at the coffee shop, and the high roller gets comped a luxury suite with champagne and lobster. Can you understand that difference in treatment? And at a dollar a hand at Roulette, you cannot expect much. Comps, winnings, - even courtesy at times. I bet $50 to $60 a hand and I am happy with a $25 comp at the coffee shop, or movie tickets. And if I see someone buying in for $10,000 next to me, I won't mind if he smokes or not.

So would you say this guy has EARNED the right (as a perk) to make floor put that sign out? Also, I believe we have one (maybe two but not real sure) table that is non-smoking. He should play there, IMO. Ken

But Dan, mrjjj doesn't use a players card. So comps don't really apply to him. Yet he wants one rule for everyone? You can't have it both ways.

Why do you care so much where another player plays or doesn't play mrjjj? Oh that's right, the entire universe revolves around you. You are too cheap to tip the dealers, yet you expect royal treatment from them? I still can't tell if you are for real or not.

Quote: MarieBicurie

But Dan, mrjjj doesn't use a players card. So comps don't really apply to him. Yet he wants one rule for everyone? You can't have it both ways.

It absolutely doesn't matter if he is using a players' card or not!
What matters is that is he betting a freakin' dollar a hand on a game next to someone who buys in for Ten Thousand Dollars.

For a dollar a hand, you cannot make or press any demands at all against a host casino - aside from basically keeping quiet and hoping that you'd win a few hands. Such a player is lucky that the dealer and casino just bealer tolerates such meager low-level action. They'll take the few cents from that player to pay for a roll of tissue paper in the employee's bathroom, because the corporate level accountant says to allow the small action to pick up a few extra pennies for such casino company expenses. But..."demand consideration" from the table games pit to such a miserly player? No...not happening. Any complain would be met by a comment from the floorman, "You're done for tonight here...you can take your action to the Klondike at Boulder and Sunset - because THEY have 10 cent action."

Try to bet a f*ucking dollar a hand - and try to run a game on a casino through any table rule demands at all, and SEE what happens in Las Vegas or Henderson: you'll be told ONE of Two things:
a) "No!" - or if you push it...
b) "Security is escorting you out of here! Stand up and step away from the table..."

A $10,000 table buy-in on the other hand - especially where they "tolerate" $1 action - takes TOP PRIORITY and allows you to request modest rule changes, such as a "no smoking" table, or a higher table limit, or a extra period of time to make your bets or set your hands, or quicker service from the cocktail waitresses, etc! They also call you "Sir."

In Casinos, there is NO one rule for every one - and that is the way it is supposed to be.
a) $1 - $5 - you better not make any demands, you are lucky you are allowed to play! Bitch about something, and you are escorted right out. Occasionally the police are called to arrest you on disorderly conduct.
b) $10 or so - be quiet and play, hoping you'd win. You can ask that a pack of cigarettes are comped after two hours of play, sometimes.
c) $15 - you get a buffet comp
d) $25 - you get a coffee shop comp and some movie tickets, AND they [the floor] starts to listen to you in some places. Discounted room rates!
e) $50-$75 a hand. Good comps (steak house on occasion) and they begin to take you seriously. FREE rooms for a few days if you play and call ahead.
f) $100 or $200 a hand. You are respected, and are taken seriously. You can now get free hotel rooms and private car rides to McCarran Airport. VIP check-in.
g) $500 - free hotel rooms, no smoking tables on demand, $100+ steak house comps. Limo pick up at McCarran Airport.
h) $2000 a hand: luxury suites with three-star room service, show tickets, Mercedes-Benz and driver airport pick up...
i) $10,000+ - luxury suites, Lincoln/Cadillac rent a car, and the casino will pay for your airfare.
j) $25,000+ a hand - private plane, luxury suites, Limo on call, etc.,

THIS IS ACTUALLY VERY FAIR!

"Why do you care so much where another player plays or doesn't play mrjjj? Oh that's right, the entire universe revolves around you. You are too cheap to tip the dealers, yet you expect royal treatment from them?" >>> I like how some here STRAY from the topic. lol How did the 'dealer' get involved in MY thread? So, MarieBicurie, is it a YES or a NO? Ken

Well, I do agree 100% that bigger players should get better treatment.

"A $10,000 table buy-in on the other hand - especailly where they "tolerate" $1 action - allows you to request a "no smoking" table, or a extra period of time to make your bets or set your hands, or quicker service from the cocktail waitresses, etc!" >>> Lets be clear. Its not a 10K buy in per say. He'll take out stacks of hundreds if he continues to lose. The guy does have some damn nice winning days. $100 per number is our max bet here. The table IS a smoking table at the time...then he sits down and the sign comes out. "non-smoking table" Ken

You could always bet bigger if you are a smoker.

Quote: mrjjj

"Why do you care so much where another player plays or doesn't play mrjjj? Oh that's right, the entire universe revolves around you. You are too cheap to tip the dealers, yet you expect royal treatment from them?" >>> I like how some here STRAY from the topic. lol How did the 'dealer' get involved in MY thread? So, MarieBicurie, do you agree with my TOPIC question or not? Ken

Ken -
The "DEALER" got invoved in your thread because he knows that a $1 player gets NO consideration at the casinos - especially if he makes any demands like he's Donald Trump against a $10,000 player - and "the dealer" agrees with this policy when any cheap player is making demands at the table, - which sounded like the situation. Not saying that is your real casino mode. [But $1 a hand??!! You could have been betting M&m's..]

Just enlightening you as to why you experienced what you had - versus what you can expect for one dollar a hand action. [Were you playing at the Klondike??!!]

Write us a post when you buy in for $10,000 [and bet $500 a hand with tipping] - and then you will then see the red carpet being rolled out while not needing to make ANY demands of the casino.

Read the above post post on "Dollar Playing Levels."

It has everything to do with the consideration a player receives from a casino.

I am surprised this thread is occurring. 99% of the "real gambling people" here already know how this works. No offense, it's just how it is done in casinos. Really.

Quote: mrjjj

"A $10,000 table buy-in on the other hand - especailly where they "tolerate" $1 action - allows you to request a "no smoking" table, or a extra period of time to make your bets or set your hands, or quicker service from the cocktail waitresses, etc!" >>> Lets be clear. Its not a 10K buy in per say. He'll take out stacks of hundreds if he continues to lose. The guy does have some damn nice winning days. $100 per number is our max bet here. The table IS a smoking table at the time...then he sits down and the sign comes out. "non-smoking table" Ken

Yeah...Let's be clear...you did say $10,000...then you say he's taking out C-note after C-note...(a hundred a pop, still considerable after a few of 'em) versus a dollar a hand player. What were you pulling out? Fives? And were you tipping the dealer in front of floor supervision, or being a one dollar player who's openly complaining about something like smoking versus non-smoking...

What is the casino gonna do? Let a one dollar play slow down a game on a $10,000 high-roller? about NOT being able to smoke? Here in Vegas?

Again, money talks, and we got to understand that in our treatment by dealers and floormen and pit bosses...Nothing rude about this, This Is Just How It Works!

Its not a 'hand', its roulette. "Just enlightening you as to why you experienced what you had" >>> This is what I witnessed many times, not sure if I 'experienced' anything. I was only wondering what you think about it, fair or not fair? (which you did answer). Ken

(I am a non-smoker) Again with tipping? lol I dont tip. Follow along.....if the guy loses, spin after spin etc., he takes out stack after stack of hundreds. I watch and kind of count in my head. On real bad days, its around 8K-10K.

"What were you pulling out? Fives?" >>> My buy in is usually $600 (nickel chips) but 3K-4K I walk in with. Ken

Quote: mrjjj

(I am a non-smoker) Again with tipping? lol I dont tip. Follow along.....if the guy loses, spin after spin etc., he takes out stack after stack of hundreds. I watch and kind of count in my head. On real bad days, its around 8K-10K.

"What were you pulling out? Fives?" >>> My buy in is usually $600 (nickel chips) but 3K-4K I walk in with. Ken

So Now it comes out.
Your buy-in is "now" $600, and you're now betting "nickels"..AND you now walked in "with $3k to $4k," not that the casino saw you buy on for that. BUT saw you play a dollar a hand, ahem. And you don't tip a CENT. [And will THAT change on a later post from you, too?]

Look, Casino people know what they see up front (especially from a dealer who sees this 40 hours a week as his job):
A smallish player ["not that there's anything wrong with that"] griping about a simple request from a high roller to limit smoking. And you're a non-smoker who complains about a change to a non-smoking table? So the floor [pit boss] said "No," feeling it was a unreasonable and mute request anyway - in favor of a clear high-roller at his casino. [And with you a non-smoker, did his "non-smoking" demand bother you?]

Maybe if you had tipped, the table dealer would have backed you up on your request. "lol."

End of discussion. The pit boss speaks. Those are now the table guidelines and rules. Abide by it, or play at another table, or leave for another joint, and get on with your nickel gambling life. Or resent it and vent your spleen here that your money and action isn't as loud or as powerful as a high-roller. We will tell you that, as that is how the business works.

MONEY TALKS, griping walks.

That's what it boils down to.

"So Now it comes out" >>> ? ROFL. Maybe at this site. You can scroll through around 4K posts from other boards, me stating that. What do you mean 'now'? As opposed to when?

"And you don't tip a CENT. [And will THAT change on a later post from you, too?" >>> Nope, same answer. I have STARTED threads on this topic on other boards, my answer stays the same.

"especially a dealer who sees this 40 hours a week as his job" >>> The dealer has NOTHING to do with my topic question. Are you sure you're at the correct thread? lol FLOOR decides to put the sign out or not. Lets drop tipping and dealers from the topic, thanks. lol

"Maybe if you had tipped, the table dealer would have backed you up on your request" >>> What request? Ken

Ken,
A dealer has everything to do this casino procedural question - with years of cainos table games knowledge and experience - and who are you to say otherwise? As a Nickel player? Huh? And you ADMIT that level of play here? And proud of it? Huh? No...A DOLLAR player?? And make demands like Donald trump at some casino? And be told "NO!" by the floorman in front of a dealer who knew that that answer was coming to you, be it on a forum or on the casino floor? I just love it.

I know that the floor decides on these questions, and I know from experience what the floor will decide upon you, Ken - and they had indeed! And for the record, Ken, I turned down a floor position I was qualifed for, because I didn't want to take work home with me, or answer to politics. (And it's less money). I knew what the floorman's reasoning was, and was glad about his decision upon you. "ROFL" here.

Your getting rebuked here on a gamblers' forum board by a dealer about your dismissal by a floorman - [just as you had at that real casino when the floorman said NO to YOU Ken], is something I knew was coming a professional dealer, but that you cannot grasp as an amateur player, hence your gripe here at this board. And it was mostly due to your dollar or nickel a hand penny-ante play combined with complains and/or demands. "ROFL"

Look, Ken, you got rebuked on the casino floor by a casino professional, and you had it coming, and you got rebuked here by a professional dealer, and you had it coming. ROFL for sure.

Look, Ken the best times I have have ever had as a dealer is when I see fine people win a boat-load of money to joy and celebration, but it is also when I see nickel fleas get shot down with their heads handed to them only cry about it - on the floor of a casino or on a gambler's forum.

Ken, If your next thread here at this site is something like "I Turned $30 into $1,500 at a casino betting $100 a hand while tipping! - and were saluted by the casino personnel who complied with my reasonable requests!" - I'd be the first to salute you also. Because that's how it is done. Doesn't sound like this had happened.

But if your thread was something like, "I was a cheap dollar-a-hand jerk who didn't tip, and the casino floormen also said NO! to me - in favor of the high-roller, and so I had a resentment," I'd say some casino protocol learning was in order.

Ken...keep coming back, - you'll win if you work it!

"And make demands like Donald trump at some casino?" >>> What does this mean? Lets stick to my question/point. Lets say a guy sits down and does not want it to be a smoking table, he says this to the dealer. You think the dealer, on his/her own, has the authority to make that decision? He/she tells the request to floor, then they decide. I dont know how/why you dragged the dealer into this conversation? I am not saying this is the policy at 4K casinos around the WORLD.

"Your getting rebuked here on a gamblers' forum board by a dealer about your dismissal by a floorman" >>> What are you talking about? lol It was a SIMPLE question. I thought I would get answers like...YES I agree or NO I dont agree. You drag things in like...tipping, dealers, Donald Trump etc.

"just as you had at that real casino when the floorman said NO to YOU Ken" >>> What are you talking about? When did the floorman say anything to me? lol Do you need some sleep? 3/4th of your last post made no sense and had LITTLE to do with me. Ken

You never answered these two..... "So Now it comes out" >>> What do you mean 'now'? As opposed to when?

"Maybe if you had tipped, the table dealer would have backed you up on your request" >>> What request? Ken

Quote: mrjjj

"And make demands like Donald trump at some casino?" >>> What does this mean? Lets stick to my question/point. Lets say a guy sits down and does not want it to be a smoking table, he says this to the dealer. You think the dealer, on his/her own, has the authority to make that decision? He/she tells the request to floor, then they decide. I dont know how/why you dragged the dealer into this conversation? I am not saying this is the policy at 4K casinos around the WORLD.

"Your getting rebuked here on a gamblers' forum board by a dealer about your dismissal by a floorman" >>> What are you talking about? lol It was a SIMPLE question. I thought I would get answers like...YES I agree or NO I dont agree. You drag things in like...tipping, dealers, Donald Trump etc.

"just as you had at that real casino when the floorman said NO to YOU Ken" >>> What are you talking about? When did the floorman say anything to me? lol Do you need some sleep? 3/4th of your last post made no senses and had LITTLE to do with me. Ken

Ken, I never said that the dealers decide or have that authority. And We don't need or want it, that's why we often reject promotions to floormen or dual rates.
What I said is that the dealers pretty much know exactly what the floormen are going to decide, and abide and smile with it. And I say this as a dealer who turned down a floorman's position.

I clarified this in earlier posts to you - that I AGREE with the FLOORMAN SHOOTING you down, as did the dealer whom you had [and did not back up you as you would have mentioned in your posts], resulting in the floorman rightfully tell you NO! - and that dealer [with this dealer in particular] - agreeing with that decision.

Also realize that dealers DO have a lot of authority as it is...because THEY ACTUALLY run the games...and not the players [though they sure as hell often want to or try to]...and ALL floormen and management back them up on this by the rules, too.

Ken, do you realize, that when the floorman said NO to you, it might have been in perfect accordance as to how the DEALER was running the game on you? Now...Did she back up you up? You didn't mention this...Her silence was another NO as she wasn't defending you either - and she was the one on top of the table's action...think about that...

Who is the floorman going to listen to anyway, Ken? A dollar player taking shots or making a gripe about something petty - or a professional dealer with whom the floorman had worked with for years...[Besides, if any procedural question comes up, surveillance decides anyway, not the player.]


Read the thread.

You mentioned the dealer like 4 times. F the dealer. My question (remember, it is MY question) has to do with if you think its fair....thats it...nothing tricky with the question, my God.

"I clarified this in earlier posts to you - that I AGREE with the FLOORMAN SHOOTING you down, as did the dealer whom you had [and did not back up you as you would have mentioned in your posts], resulting in the floorman rightfully tell you NO! - and that dealer [with this dealer in particular] - agreeing with that decision" >>> And lets try it a third time. I asked nothing. I made no request, what are you talking about?

"Also realize that dealers DO have a lot of authority" >>> Thats cool but I'm ONLY referring to my question. So, generally speaking, the 'dealer' has little to do with my question. I am not asking for other examples where dealers have authority, I could careless. If floor says to place the 'no smoking' sign on the table and the dealer objects, what happens? Thats rhetorical. Ken

"You could always bet bigger if you are a smoker" >>> I'm a non-smoker.

@Paigowdan >> "So Now it comes out" >>> What do you mean 'now'? As opposed to when? Ken

No, Ken, again...

1. As player, You can't make the table rules, nor can you run the game against the casino, if you are a player. The house sets the rules. some of which you might disagree quietly with, or less quietly with. Doesn't matter. The house sets the rules. Floormen and dealers oversee this - with the dealer actually running the game on behalf of the house, not the players.
2. But if you are a high-roller player, you can request some minor rule changes and get them, such as dedicated cocktail waitress services, raising the table limits, and having smoking/non-smoking tables, even if lower-level payers have a petty objection or resentment to it, or are annoyed by it. If you're betting $1 or $5 a hand, you really can't say squat about how the table is run. The house worries about what annoys the high-roller, and quite often it is other complaining players!
3. The high-roller could have requested that the table limits be raised to a level higher than you were playing at, Ken - which would have knocked you off the table, without "smoking/non-smoking" being an issue. But he didn't request that that against you. At a $10,000 buy-in, he didn't complain about you - while you were complaining about him, certainly here. He just wanted to play, and he did.

Simply put, money talks, and quite often those without money (who are often betting a pittance per hand, ahem) complain about "injustice." No, it's not injustice, it just gambling by the rules of the table, as set by the house offering the game. We are not "entitled" to gamble, aside from New Jersey.

We play by the rules of the table we're at, as set by the house offering the game. That's it.

"As player, You can't make the table rules" >>> No joking, really? lol

"But he didn't request that that against you. At a $10,000 buy-in, he didn't complain about you - while you were complaining about him. He just wanted to play, and did" >>> Oh, so I owe the guy a favor? Second time, it was not a 10K buy in. Second time, I did not complain about him.....what are you talking about?

Will you answer my past questions? I can post them again if needed? Ken

Yes, Ken,
you owe the guy a favor.
This anonymous high-roller seems very graceful and deserving of the kind of money that he had, where he can buy in at what he had bought in for, considering his patience with his probable table experience.

You also owe the dealer a favor.

And the floorman.

And again, the guy next to you who bought in for big money at the same table.

And maybe some people only God knows about...lord knows we all do.

Anyway...Your questions were thoroughly and fully answered here already - please print out and read this thread:

1. Players don't run the game - the house runs the games through their dealers and floormen. Their decision are final, no matter what you think - or especially what you feel.
2. Money talks - and high rollers get more consideration than low-rollers concerning minor table requests, as well as comps, waitress service, and a host of other perks. Don't bitch about them - get a better job, or write a hit screenplay, or win American Idol or some sh]t to join his league. Christ, if someone bought in at that level, I wouldn't show myself to bet $1 or $5 a hand. By all means, Ken, "don't be a peon who protests too much!" I'd either raise my play, or just watch, or leave. But that's me.
3. You're at a casino's descretion to be there to gamble, so don't complain about any injustice if the casino runs the game as they see fit, even if you don't like it because they listen and considered another player's wishes before yours, Ken. It's happened to us all. It's a part of gambling.
4. High-rollers get more consideration than $1 or $5 players - see #2, above. You generally can't resent them. This is one of the earliest "beginning" lessons a casino gambler can learn. You respect them, and if they don't bother you, then you enjoy their company on the same table they grace your minor presence with, if they don't act like jerks themselves about it.

@Paigowdan......."So Now it comes out" >>> What do you mean 'now'? As opposed to when?

Also, you stated at least 4 times that my 'request' was shot down by floor. For the FOURTH time asking, what request are you talking about? We'll stick to these two questions, then I'll move on. Ken

Is it fair?

No.

The casino is telling you: we appreciate this guy's action far more than we appreciate yours and we will go out of the way to keep the other guy happy. So screw you.

Capitalism at its finest.

Now look at that guys. A quick, easy, polite, response. Yes or no, either one is fine. You stuck to the topic boymimbo, thanks. You didn't talk about cherry pie, why is the sky blue, what color is the casino floor or stats from the 1998 Boston Red Sox!! Its like pulling teeth here. Thanks again boymimbo. Ken

Quote: boymimbo

Is it fair?

No.

The casino is telling you: we appreciate this guy's action far more than we appreciate yours and we will go out of the way to keep the other guy happy. So screw you.

Capitalism at its finest.

Exactly - I don't see "fairness" or "equal treatment" on the list of basically any retailer's priorities. If you spend more, you get better treatment. Why is that surprising?

I for one feel that bigger players should get better treatment and that smokers should be arrested on sight, cained in public, and then jailed for a term of at least five years.

"Why is that surprising?" >>> I'm not saying it is, I only asked for different views. You did answer MathExtremist, thanks man! Herb on the other hand....well....he's still Herb. lol Ken