Can you effectively 'vet' someone from Somalia?

Abdul Artan was legally allowed into the US. How are we supposed to know what his plans were? He is exactly the refugee that Trump wants to keep out.

Quote: SOOPOO

Abdul Artan was legally allowed into the US. How are we supposed to know what his plans were? He is exactly the refugee that Trump wants to keep out.

Mental illness, or fatal rage, either one, are not limited to any demographic. Who knows what happened to set him off? From plowing into the crowd to shot dead was less than 2 minutes.

I am not sympathetic in the slightest ,but I don't think you can make this about his immigrant status.

Trump is concerned about what I'll call "sleeper agents:" folks who come here pretending to be loyal but just waiting to commit a terrorist act: like the 911 terrorists.

This murderous loser was just 18: certainly not old enough to have been co-opted before entering the states.

Of greater concern are those who become radicalized after coming to this country, but I see no way to vet them.

Quote: SOOPOO

Abdul Artan was legally allowed into the US. How are we supposed to know what his plans were? He is exactly the refugee that Trump wants to keep out.

Unless we have sophisticated Vulcan brain scan technology at our disposal, we can't possibly tell what someone's true intentions are. For that matter, I can't tell if my nice but somewhat strange neighbor, who is a white Christian from Indiana, is going to freak out one day and slaughter 45 people in a shopping mall.

That's why Trump is such a fraud. Terrorist incidents can't be completely predicted or prevented. He got people to vote for him by telling them that he would implement the Vulcan brain scans, thus falsely assuaging their (stupid, anyway) fears.

I am certain that 90% or more of the people who are so worried about terrorist incidents eat unhealthy food, text while driving, keep guns in the house, and don't get regular physical checkups.

Quote: beachbumbabs

but I don't think you can make this about his immigrant status.

You can't, but it won't stop many from trying...

I think I can extrapolate from the comments that ams, JoeS, and BBB are happy with fact that this cold blooded killer was allowed entry into our country, since it wasn't clear he was one at the time. And oppose stricter standards that would have prevented his entry. It is that thinking that has the rest of the country fed up, and has resulted in a President Trump.

Quote: SOOPOO

It is that thinking that has the rest of the country fed up, and has resulted in a President Trump.

I, for one, am happy that these attacks will immediately stop once President Trump takes office in January. That is what he promised, after all....

Quote: SOOPOO

I think I can extrapolate from the comments that ams, JoeS, and BBB are happy with fact that this cold blooded killer was allowed entry into our country,

Also, he technically didn't kill anybody.

Imagine the damage he could have done with a gun instead of a butcher knife!

Quote: SOOPOO

I think I can extrapolate from the comments that ams, JoeS, and BBB are happy with fact that this cold blooded killer was allowed entry into our country, since it wasn't clear he was one at the time. And oppose stricter standards that would have prevented his entry. It is that thinking that has the rest of the country fed up, and has resulted in a President Trump.

There is a line of thinking out there that contends that we can't stop everything, so we should not try to stop anything.

We have borders and we have laws. If we need to close the borders further to protect our citizens, then we should do it.

There is no "right" to come to America.

Quote: SOOPOO

I think I can extrapolate from the comments that ams, JoeS, and BBB are happy with fact that this cold blooded killer was allowed entry into our country, since it wasn't clear he was one at the time. And oppose stricter standards that would have prevented his entry. It is that thinking that has the rest of the country fed up, and has resulted in a President Trump.

Cmon, soopoo, that's insulting. And misleading.

What if the kid was disturbed but from Cleveland? Or came here happy but got pushed beyond what he could endure since? Or on drugs this morning?

You have made a speculative conclusion based on one fact. Then gone further and insulted those of us who disagree with you. Stop it.

Quote: SOOPOO

I think I can extrapolate from the comments that ams, JoeS, and BBB are happy with fact that this cold blooded killer was allowed entry into our country, since it wasn't clear he was one at the time. And oppose stricter standards that would have prevented his entry. It is that thinking that has the rest of the country fed up, and has resulted in a President Trump.

As are many such extrapolations, that one is, in addition to being intensely stupid, unfair and inaccurate. You should be ashamed of yourself. I resent the implication that I am happy with the fact that this one particular individual turned out to be a murderer.

Of course we're not happy that he was let in. We never said that. What we said is that it's impossible to tell if someone is going to be a murderer in the future or not. Trump's "vetting" wouldn't be able to tell, and neither would any psychological screening tool we have in place. What would be "the standards that would have prevented his entry"? Trump's Muslim ban? Is that practical? Is it fair? Is it even possible?

By your logic, we should lock YOU up, since you MIGHT kill someone sometime in the future.

I'll tell you what I AM happy about, though. I'm happy that over the centuries, we have allowed a diverse range of immigrants into this country. We're better off for it. We're a vibrant and dynamic culture because of it. The places we inhabit are more interesting because of it. We're a more productive people because of it. I LIKE the fact that we're not all WASPs.

I'd like to address your irrational fears by pointing out that immigrants, legal or illegal, commit FEWER violent crimes than native-born Americans. The fact that a few immigrants have committed such crimes doesn't change that. Good old-fashioned white Christians are murderers, too. But SOOPOO, I don't see you advocating that we deport everyone in Kansas.

This is pretty obvious, but I would keep out young single men with no family here and no practical employment skills. Country of original should be factored in too.

Quote: Wizard

This is pretty obvious, but I would keep out young single men with no family here and no practical employment skills. Country of original should be factored in too.

It seems to me that if anyone had mayhem in his heart, he would just visit the US on a regular tourist visa. You get at least 30 days no matter what and in most cases, six months--more than enough time to commit whatever horrible acts all those Mooozleeeem terrorists wish to do.

That's the problem. Clamping down on immigration for work, residency, or student status wouldn't make things more secure. Neither would total exclusion of Muslims, as you can't give someone a brain scan or a blood test to find out what their religion is. In point of fact, we already tend not to grant work/residence status to people like you describe, and students have to already be admitted to a university or college.

It's always a matter of just how "safe" we want to be. We could simply exclude all immigrants. Or we could "profile" them, which would weed out many of the baddies but would also exclude many legitimate applicants. It's not unlike the way we handle criminal court cases. We could strip away the basic rights of defendants, eliminate jury trials, and indeed, very few murderers would go free. The price we would pay is that many innocent people would be convicted as well. Likewise, if we implement draconic immigration laws, we MIGHT keep out "the terrorists"--at the cost of excluding a lot of people we would really like to come here.

Quote: Wizard

This is pretty obvious, but I would keep out young single men with no family here and no practical employment skills. Country of original should be factored in too.

What about limiting immigration to hot, single women who pass a "vetting test" by competently fellating a government inspector?

Trump would probably be down with that.

Quote: MrV

What about limiting immigration to hot, single women who pass a "vetting test" by competently fellating a government inspector?

Trump would probably be down with that.

How do you think Melania got here?!

Quote: beachbumbabs

Cmon, soopoo, that's insulting. And misleading.

What if the kid was disturbed but from Cleveland? Or came here happy but got pushed beyond what he could endure since? Or on drugs this morning?

You have made a speculative conclusion based on one fact. Then gone further and insulted those of us who disagree with you. Stop it.

True on the speculation based on one fact. It could turn out to be something other than what it is odds on to be right now.

Now you stop it on the silly disturbed kid from Cleveland deflection. I understand that there lots of other bad people here (citizens) already, that unfortunately I can't legally do anything about until their 'badness' crosses some legal line. But this person had no guaranteed legal right to be here, and on the contrary, we had a legal right to keep him out. I believe we had an obligation to keep him out, you obviously don't. If he had been kept out there wouldn't be 10 people in the hospital.

How do you explain to the mother of the kid in critical condition why we let the butcher in? I'm waiting....

In a case like this I always go back to "Casino". Everyone said Andy Stone was a standup guy and shouldn't get whacked. As always, the wisest most experienced man in the room, Remo Gaggi said "Why take the chance"? And that was the end for Andy.

Sounds like good advice to me when dealing with immigrants from Somalia.

Quote: SOOPOO

He is exactly the refugee that Trump wants to keep out.

How about this man from Somalia that the UK allowed to enter: Wealthy, well-educated (University and Graduate School), young, handsome, healthy, relatively safe driver of a RollsRoyce, good gambler, never barred from any UK Casino. Reputation for generosity.

Friends and acquaintances of his girl friend responded to her electronic pleas, searched her flat and the parking garage, found her corpse. He erased all his text and facebook messages, fled to a nearby airport, flew his father's corporate jet out of the UK and refused to return to the UK for questioning or to be questioned in Somalia by Letters Rogatory.

Want to keep wealthy investors out of the country too?

Quote: SOOPOO

True on the speculation based on one fact. It could turn out to be something other than what it is odds on to be right now.

Now you stop it on the silly disturbed kid from Cleveland deflection. I understand that there lots of other bad people here (citizens) already, that unfortunately I can't legally do anything about until their 'badness' crosses some legal line. But this person had no guaranteed legal right to be here, and on the contrary, we had a legal right to keep him out. I believe we had an obligation to keep him out, you obviously don't. If he had been kept out there wouldn't be 10 people in the hospital.

How do you explain to the mother of the kid in critical condition why we let the butcher in? I'm waiting....

Yeah, yeah. And we should have murdered Hitler's mommy before she gave birth to him. Since we didn't, everything he did is our fault. That's a really stupid argument to make. When we let that guy in, he wasn't waving a gun in the air or acting crazy. How was anyone supposed to tell what he was going to do? After all, Poo, YOU OBVIOUSLY KNEW AND FAILED TO WARN US.

What you're ignoring is the fact that in the same time frame, we let in thousands of other immigrants and visitors. Are you saying that because one went amok, we shouldn't have let any of the others in? Or are you so wise as to say that you could have stood there at the immigration checkpoint, and picked out the one guy who was going to commit murder? You ain't that smart, Poo.

You've been watching too many movies. We can't bar someone from entry based on what they will do in the future--because we don't know what that will be. We also, lacking godlike powers, can't make an informed speculation. When you develop "pre-cog" powers like in that Tom Cruise movie, give us a call and we'll use your talents to protect us from the baddies. Until then, you're just blathering, with no basis for the blather other than your personal fears and prejudices.

Quote: MrV

What about limiting immigration to hot, single women who pass a "vetting test" by competently fellating a government inspector?

Trump would probably be down with that.

We'd need a precise set of government standards regarding what constitutes "competent fellatio," with charts, diagrams, and illustrations. It would be hundreds of pages thick and would have to be distributed to all border control officers. All efforts at qualification would have to be video-recorded.

On the plus side, recruitment for immigration positions would soar.

Some people are just incompatible with western civilization. You can't lose on a bet you don't make.

Quote: Joeshlabotnik

Unless we have sophisticated Vulcan brain scan technology at our disposal, we can't possibly tell what someone's true intentions are. For that matter, I can't tell if my nice but somewhat strange neighbor, who is a white Christian from Indiana, is going to freak out one day and slaughter 45 people in a shopping mall.

That's why Trump is such a fraud. Terrorist incidents can't be completely predicted or prevented. He got people to vote for him by telling them that he would implement the Vulcan brain scans, thus falsely assuaging their (stupid, anyway) fears.

I am certain that 90% or more of the people who are so worried about terrorist incidents eat unhealthy food, text while driving, keep guns in the house, and don't get regular physical checkups.

But them things are your choice.

Quote: AxelWolf

But them things are your choice.

My point is that we are terrible estimators of risk and are afraid of things that are no real threat while being blissfully ignorant of actual dangers. How many people die every year of cardiovascular disease? How many people die every year from terrorist acts? How much money do we put into cardiac disease prevention programs? How much money do we spend on Homeland Security?

It's like so many posters on this board expressing trembling, existential fear at the threat of Syrian refugees being covert terrorists who will seek asylum in this country and then wreak havoc. Aside from the little fact that nothing like that has even happened, is it really something that we should be worried about? How likely is it to affect you or I?

And if you state that the fear is justified, how do you justify NOT being afraid of a dozen other things that have a much better chance of killing you? People fear terrorist incidents because they're glamorous and get huge publicity. But they'll smoke, text while driving, and eat high-cholesterol foods without a second thought.

We actually pay far too much attention to terrorism and divert far too many resources to it--WAY out of proportion to the threat it really is. As a cause of death in the US, it isn't even in the top 100.