kewlj
kewlj
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
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December 16th, 2015 at 11:18:28 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

The last 900 hits of his career came when he was a below average player.

Rose is obviously ahead of Allen and Bagwell due to longevity. Overall as a hitter, Rose is probably outside of the top 50 in history. Only ranked in the top 10 in OPS three times in his entire career.



Just stop.

OPS is a power statistic. Rose wasn't a power hitter. That's like saying Jim Brown wasn't a great football player because he ranks low in TD passes. You are being ridiculous.

In Rose's final 6 seasons, from the time he was 40 years old to he retired at 45 years old, he had 803 hits, for a batting average of .272. Yes, the .272 over that span is 30 points below his lifetime average, but he was in his 40's for god sakes! And by the way that .272 over that time is 12 points higher than the all-time non-pitcher batting average and 19 points higher than all-time first baseman's average. His fielding percentage as a first baseman was .994, which is above the average, so the notion that his teams would have been better with someone else is BS.

You are cherry-picking data to make your case and even at that you are wrong. Let me share some legitimate data.

Pete Rose:
MLB All time hit leader
MLB 2nd all time in doubles
Rookie of the year.
12 time all-star
3 batting titles
1 MVP
5 times top 5 MVP voting
led his team to 8 playoffs and 6 world series and that was an era that only 4 teams per year made the playoffs.

Pete Rose is easily a first ballot Hall of Fame player and easily one of the best baseball players of all-time. If you want to hold the gambling against him, fine, but don't embarrass yourself by trying to make the case he is not deserving.

Pete Rose is 74 years old. He will be voted into the hall of fame almost immediately after his death. For the commissioner to state that the ban remains because Rose continues to gamble on baseball, when there is absolutely nothing illegal about that is ridiculous. It is just being spiteful. And for MLB to allow him to participate in ceremonies and things when it suits their needs (and draws more fans) is super hypocritical.
NokTang
NokTang
Joined: Aug 15, 2011
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December 17th, 2015 at 3:42:07 AM permalink
Quote: Aussie

Out of interest how did it come out that he was gambling on games? Leaked by a bookie? Friend?



Hello. I don't recall specifically. I think it was the clubhouse phone records and the tap on the bookie's phone. But I'm not sure. Good question. I hope someone answers who actually knows or takes the time to look it up. Have a nice day. Sunny and hot(as usual) here in Thailand. Chinese tourists everywhere.
TomG
TomG
Joined: Sep 26, 2010
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December 17th, 2015 at 5:23:02 AM permalink
Quote: kewlj


You are cherry-picking data to make your case and even at that you are wrong. Let me share some legitimate data.



No, that's what you are doing. OPS is a statistic that does a great job measuring how much a player helps his team on offense. OPS has a correlation coefficient to runs scored of 96%. Rose had a lower OPS than Joe Morgan, Tim Raines, Rod Carew, or Rickey Henderson; his was more than 60 points lower than Wade Boggs or Tony Gwynn.

All first basemen in the entire league had a .992 fielding percentage. Rose committed two fewer errors per 1000 chances. And fielding percentage is only a fraction of a players defensive value. All other defenensive stats were below average. Hitting .272, but having very little skill other than hitting singles, is absolutely and unquestionably below average. During those years Jack Clark, for example, hit 122 more home runs than Rose. Those home runs were worth about 12 extra wins. And he also made outs at a lower rate than Rose.

Quote: kewlj


MLB All time hit leader
MLB 2nd all time in doubles
Rookie of the year.
12 time all-star
3 batting titles
1 MVP
5 times top 5 MVP voting
led his team to 8 playoffs and 6 world series and that was an era that only 4 teams per year made the playoffs.



All you show from this is that he was a singles and doubles hitter who was popular enough to earn a lot of votes from the fans and media and also had good teammates. You should give him more credit than that. Mike Piazza won rookie of the year, made 12 All-Star teams, finished second or third in batting average three times, top five in MVP four times (and sixth once). And he was a catcher who hit far more home runs than Rose and made outs at lower rate
TomG
TomG
Joined: Sep 26, 2010
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December 17th, 2015 at 5:42:16 AM permalink
Quote: kewlj

OPS is a power statistic. Rose wasn't a power hitter. That's like saying Jim Brown wasn't a great football player because he ranks low in TD passes. You are being ridiculous.



Every event that happens in the game has a value for how much it helps a team win. You, of all people, should understand that. Each single, double, home run, and out, changes the chance a team wins. When you add up all those values for Rose, it becomes clear that there were quite a few players in baseball history who did better than him. When you add up all those values for Jim Brown it is obvious there were very few players in football history who did better than him.
RaleighCraps
RaleighCraps
Joined: Feb 20, 2010
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December 17th, 2015 at 6:41:56 AM permalink
Pete's nickname says it all, "Charlie Hustle".

He was disruptive to the fielding team. He would try to beat out every infield ground ball. If he hit a high fly ball, he would be rounding second just in case the fielder missed the catch. There is a reason he has so many doubles, because 1/2 of them would only be singles to most players who just trot to first base. When you have a guy on your team that is giving 110% on EVERY play, it makes everybody else on the team play harder too.

I agree that Pete has showed no contrition, and the ban on any active baseball participation should stand.
However, Pete should be on the ballot for the HoF, and if the writers weren't such a bunch of two-faced, sanctimonious, pompous a-holes, he would be voted in first round. As has been pointed out, there are many in the HoF who have done much worse things. The HoF was tarnished a long time ago with some of the selections. To hold Pete to a higher standard is just BS.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
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December 17th, 2015 at 8:01:25 AM permalink
Quote: kewlj

...For the commissioner to state that the ban remains because Rose continues to gamble on baseball, when there is absolutely nothing illegal about that is ridiculous...


Isn't this exactly what casinos do to AP's? We do nothing illegal yet they ban us for life and we don't gripe about that. As far as I'm concerned, all of the caught PED users should be permanently banned too.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
TwoFeathersATL
TwoFeathersATL
Joined: May 22, 2013
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December 17th, 2015 at 9:32:29 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Isn't this exactly what casinos do to AP's? We do nothing illegal yet they ban us for life and we don't gripe about that. As far as I'm concerned, all of the caught PED users should be permanently banned too.

PEDs are those little candy capsule things that come out of a dispenser that looks like one of your heroes, like Mickey Mouse, etc, right?
No, that was PEZ, nevermind.....
I was going to say that I've never seen a Rose PEDs dispenser.
Never seen a Rose PEZ dispenser either, BTW.
Now I want one....
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
darthxaos
darthxaos
Joined: Nov 9, 2013
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December 18th, 2015 at 11:02:09 AM permalink
Things that should matter with regards to sports records:

PEDs
Cheating
Gambling on games you have a COI in
Breaking the legs of another competitor before a match

Things that should not matter:

Wife beating
Dog Fighting
Murder (unless game-related, like you murder a rival competitor or something)

Yes those are all horrible things but they don't affect the game, and sports commissioners should let the law deal with that stuff.

This is why Pete Rose, as far as SPORTS is concerned, is worse than Michael Vick, Ray Rice, and even OJ Simpson.
RaleighCraps
RaleighCraps
Joined: Feb 20, 2010
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December 19th, 2015 at 9:32:13 AM permalink
As an upstanding citizen, role model? Pete gets F

As a player who had the most hits, played hard every inning, every at bat, every minute? Pete is at the top.

Pete the PLAYER, deserves to be in the HoF.

Pete the person, does not deserve to be any sort of role model, same as wife beaters, dog fighters, and murderers.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
TwoFeathersATL
TwoFeathersATL
Joined: May 22, 2013
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December 19th, 2015 at 11:36:34 AM permalink
Quote: RaleighCraps

As an upstanding citizen, role model? Pete gets F

As a player who had the most hits, played hard every inning, every at bat, every minute? Pete is at the top.

Pete the PLAYER, deserves to be in the HoF.

Pete the person, does not deserve to be any sort of role model, same as wife beaters, dog fighters, and murderers.


Said the guy with a private harem as an Avatar ;-)
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F

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