TomG
TomG
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December 16th, 2015 at 5:23:52 AM permalink
He is now far more accessible to fans than player of his caliber, because he was caught gambling.

If Rose was not given a lifetime ban is there anything else that would be much different? No team would have ever hired him as a manager (or even hitting coach) ever again. He wouldn't have accepted a job in the minor leagues. He lost a few years where he could have been an assistant at spring training. And if the punishment was 10 years, he wouldn't have had that many opportunities to do that, before getting so old.

The important question isn't 'Should he be in the Hall-of-Fame?' The important question is 'Why would anyone ever look at his career differently just because he isn't?' He isn't even close to the best player blackballed because of off the field issues.

The Baseball writers somehow did a pretty good job at choosing the right guys for the first century. This century has been pretty bad. Sutter and Gossage make it, but not Schilling or Mussina? Jim Rice makes it, but not Dwight Evans (or Fred Lynn)? Andre Dawson, but not Tim Raines? Tony Perez, but not Jeff Bagwell? Rose would have gone in easily if not for gambling, but is still only around the 10th best ever at whichever position we rate him at (left or right field); Mike Piazza is probably third best in Major League history at his position. Leaving out Pete Rose just leaves out another player who deserves to be in based on on-the-field play, but for some reason wasn't chosen. He's the only one who has been able to make a second career out of it.
kewlj
kewlj
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December 16th, 2015 at 8:34:33 AM permalink
Quote: terapined


This is the most important rule in baseball and Pete Rose broke it
He should be banned just as Shoeless Joe Jackson ban still stands



I don't believe the shoeless Joe Jackson ban is a fair comparison. Shoeless Joe was about more than just gambling. He fixed games. That is a criminal offense. There is no evidence that Pete Rose did anything like that. Furthermore Joe Jackson's action occurred as a player, so as a player he is banned. Pete Rose's actions occurred as a manager. I am ok with him being banned as a manager. But as a player there is no evidence of any wrong doing...just speculation and assumptions. I don't think his career as a player, one of the best should be effected because of something he did as a manager. I think the two should be separate.

And I sure as hell don't think his actions today, as a private citizen, engaging in a completely legal activity like gambling should in any way effect what he did as a player and that is exactly what the commissioner said on Tuesday, when reasoned that the ban stays in effect because Pete Rose continues to gamble on baseball, a completely legal action.

Quote: TomG

Rose would have gone in easily if not for gambling, but is still only around the 10th best ever at whichever position we rate him at (left or right field); Leaving out Pete Rose just leaves out another player who deserves to be in based on on-the-field play, but for some reason wasn't chosen.



"Just another player"? "10th best ever at whichever position"? How about hitter? Perhaps the single most important skill of the game. He is the all-time hit leader!
muleyvoice
muleyvoice
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
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December 16th, 2015 at 9:47:11 AM permalink
"Just another player"? "10th best ever at whichever position"? How about hitter? Perhaps the single most important skill of the game. He is the all-time hit leader!

Please don't confuse the issue with facts.

At least people know who Pete Rose is. Who knows the name of the pitcher who is in the Hall of Fame, and only pitcher to lead both leagues in ERA for a season. Hint : Yoga Berra said if everybody pitched like Old Sarge ( shrapnel in his back, Purple Heart ), there wouldn't be a 200 hitter in baseball.
Rigondeaux
Rigondeaux 
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December 16th, 2015 at 12:07:49 PM permalink
We don't know that Rose didn't fix games but he might have. It's very probable that he overspent resources to win individual games, which could cost the other team a win and hand a win to the next team they played.

If you get in the hole for more than you can pay, throwing a game is going to be on the table. If your team is out of contention... hey, why not? One game to save your skin. But then anybody who knows about it has you in their pocket forever.

PEDs are much more of a grey area and don't threaten the integrity of the game nearly as much. They ruined the record books, which kind of sucks. But cheating, or pushing the boundaries of cheating to gain an edge is a part of every sport and always will be. It's simply a different animal from allowing outside gambling interests to influence the outcomes of games.

Look at boxing. Was the number 2 sport for decades and is now a fringe sport. There are many reasons for that, but one is that fans don't believe the outcomes are determined honestly (which is true, but it's rarely because of gambling).

If you are a player or manager, you must know that betting on baseball means you're done.

Look at it this way. You can be a lawyer if you have beat your wife, or are a drunk or have used drugs. Not if you tamper with a jury, even if it is to help an innocent person go free. Similar standards exist for working in a casino or any number of other jobs. Doesn't matter if you're a good person, or if some other person did something morally worse. The integrity of the field demands zero tolerance of certain behavior and everybody knows that going in.
DRich
DRich
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December 16th, 2015 at 12:19:13 PM permalink
I think Pete's deserves to be included in the hall but I must say that I have no respect for the guy. He lives in Vegas and many people I know think the guy is scum.

The real question is can he still get into the HOF after the changes they made last year:

"3. Eligible Candidates -- Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:

A. A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning fifteen (15) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election.

B. Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3(A).

C. Player shall have ceased to be an active player in the Major Leagues at least five (5) calendar years preceding the election but may be otherwise connected with baseball.

D. In case of the death of an active player or a player who has been retired for less than five (5) full years, a candidate who is otherwise eligible shall be eligible in the next regular election held at least six (6) months after the date of death or after the end of the five (5) year period, whichever occurs first.

E. Any player on Baseball's ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate."

Source: http://baseballhall.org/hall-of-famers/bbwaa-rules-for-election
Order from chaos
sisyphus
sisyphus
Joined: Dec 7, 2015
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December 16th, 2015 at 4:18:49 PM permalink
I would hope that Pete Rose couldn't care less if he were inducted into the goofy "Hall O Fame". Sadly, he does, which takes him down a notch or two in my world.
muleyvoice
muleyvoice
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
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December 16th, 2015 at 4:51:49 PM permalink
" PEDs are much more of a grey area and don't threaten the integrity of the game nearly as much. "

They let Barry Bond be a coach, but Pete can't be. What bullshit... How many lives did the druggies ruin ? Young men forced to bulk up or forget making the majors. Too many made the wrong choice. Baseball could give a shit less what is going on, unless it affects the bottom line.
Aussie
Aussie
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December 16th, 2015 at 7:53:12 PM permalink
Out of interest how did it come out that he was gambling on games? Leaked by a bookie? Friend?
TomG
TomG
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December 16th, 2015 at 9:28:54 PM permalink
Quote: muleyvoice

They let Barry Bond be a coach, but Pete can't be. What bullshit... How many lives did the druggies ruin ? Young men forced to bulk up or forget making the majors. Too many made the wrong choice. Baseball could give a shit less what is going on, unless it affects the bottom line.



Before Barry Bonds ever used drugs the Sports Writers gave two NL MVP awards to drug users instead of Bonds. They also voted to put drug users in the Hall-of-Fame (and they continued to do so even after Bonds started using). Before Bonds ever used drugs other sports had drug testing for over 25 years, yet both management and players insisted to keep drug testing out of baseball.

Had Bonds not been born in the 1960s, he wouldn't have been playing baseball at a time when everyone involved (media, fans, management, and other players) encouraged drug use. Had he been born in the 90s, he would be ahead of Trout and Harper.

Quote: muleyvoice

How many lives did the druggies ruin ?



Far less than the number of lives ruined by the War on Drugs
TomG
TomG
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December 16th, 2015 at 9:48:39 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

How about hitter? Perhaps the single most important skill of the game. He is the all-time hit leader!



The last 900 hits of his career came when he was a below average player. Had his teams simply had an average first baseman for those years they would have won more games. Over 75% of Rose's hits were singles. The value of a single is less than 1/3 the value of a home run. Rose hit a home run in only 1% of all plate appearances. For comparison Dick Allen hit a home run in almost 5%. A walk is about 72% as valuable as a single. While Rose did walk a fair amount (10% of all PA compared to 8.5% for the rest of the league), it is still well behind many other all-time great hitters. Jeff Bagwell walked in 15% of all PA.

Rose is obviously ahead of Allen and Bagwell due to longevity. Overall as a hitter, Rose is probably outside of the top 50 in history. Only ranked in the top 10 in OPS three times in his entire career.

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