Should Vegas get a Professional Sports franchise (not minor league)

As we all know, Vegas is the largest American city settled in the 20th Century. Right now, its metropolitan area is like that of many small markets that field professional sports teams like Milwaukee, Indianapolis, St Louis, Cleveland, New Orleans, Nashville etc. I don't think there is any doubt as to the fact that Vegas is big enough, there are legitimate questions regarding how well would they be supported since Vegas doesn't have a large population of people that were born and raised there. There is the issue of sports gambling not being legal in all 50 states and some commissioners might be reluctant to be the first into this market.

So should Vegas get a pro sports team and please explain why you answered they way you did.

I voted yes. I don't think an NHL team would work, but I wouldn't mind a basketball, baseball, or football team. I'd definitely go to Las Vegas to watch my team. Seems like corporate sponsorship would not be an issue, and attendance also wouldn't be an issue

Not sure about the "should", but I know that the NHL has been actively investigating a Las Vegas franchise, likely a new one (as opposed to a relocation). Yes, although many of the people who live there were not born there, that dynamic should be changing as people take up somewhat permanent residence. From an economic standpoint, I don't see a downside other than the peril to citizens of a bond issue to finance a billionaire's playground. From the gambling standpoint, I don't see a reason not to have a team. The older arguments (about undue/unsavory influence on local teams) seems less germane in the day of internet gambling and ultra-fast communication.

That is a great point. Vegas is a vacation city. Who wouldn't want to schedule a 3-4 day weekend in Vegas with tickets to your favorite basketball, baseball or football team as part of the trip? I also don't think hockey would work in Vegas, but most small market teams like Milwaukee, Cleveland, St Louis have either basketball or hockey, not both

Quote: Gabes22

As we all know, Vegas is the largest American city settled in the 20th Century. Right now, its metropolitan area is like that of many small markets that field professional sports teams like Milwaukee, Indianapolis, St Louis, Cleveland, New Orleans, Nashville etc. I don't think there is any doubt as to the fact that Vegas is big enough, there are legitimate questions regarding how well would they be supported since Vegas doesn't have a large population of people that were born and raised there. There is the issue of sports gambling not being legal in all 50 states and some commissioners might be reluctant to be the first into this market.

So should Vegas get a pro sports team and please explain why you answered they way you did.

I'm all for anything that will help the Las Vegas economy. I won't suddenly become a LV team fan. I'm not going to buy team wear for myself or go to a bunch of games(maybe with friends) I would probably buy memorabilia and stuff for friends who are fans as gifts. I can see potential for a new LV football fan based sports bar. I might buy a few rookie cards and pay slightly more attention to the team.


I don't understand the betting issue. Explain how having a LV team and sports betting is a problem here significantly more so than anywhere else?
I imagine more action being put down on a LV team because the convinces of betting a local team. Perhaps its a bad Idea for the players living in the biggest party town in the USA with all the temptations. I'm sure we would get some interesting player headlines.

Las vegas is going to be awarded an NHL franchise this year. Personally, I don't think any professional team will currently succeed in Las Vegas. Although Las Vegas has a population greater than many other cities with professional teams, the nearby population is required to boost television viewership and Las Vegas has less population near it than any of the other cities. There are very few people living outside Vegas but within a 200 mile radius.

NFL Team

Las Vegas could face some of the same issues that Florida teams have, too much entertainment competition. Also is there any city in the country that has a larger % of workers who work during the evening hours? Visitors are nice, but teams survive on locals buying season tickets and corporate sponsors.

I a not saying the issue of sports betting is rooted in reality but it is a perception as to why many people nationwide do not want a pro sports franchise in Vegas. I am a Wisconsin Badger fan and about 10 years ago they had a football game at UNLV and mysteriously halfway through the fourth quarter the place went dark, and if memory serves me right it was very soon after Wisconsin had started to cover the point spread. The game ended halfway through the 4th and all bets were voided and there is a perception in Wisconsin that this intentionally due to the localized sports betting in the area. Not saying it happened that way, but that is the perception

Quote: DRich

Las vegas is going to be awarded an NHL franchise this year.

For real? Bleh. Hockey in the desert of the south west, yet still no team in QC. I'm with AZD. Western civilization is in decline. It is the end time, boys. Was fun while it lasted =P

Quote: Baccaratfrom79

NFL Team

Take the Bills. Please.

The lack of local rooting interests would be a problem. Look at Miami, there are a lot of transplants there and they struggle to fill stadiums.

The NFL for one would never allow it, hypocrites that they are. I see a problem with how deep support will go. Vegas is a transplant and transient city. Any team that settles there is going to be the "Washington Generals" to the other team who will be the reason for most of the attendance. The Arizona Cardinals were this way until the late-2000s. Steelers come to town and the Vegas team will sell well, Jaguars do and the games will be blacked out.

Las Vegas Gamblers does sound like a good name, though!

really shows the stupidity of the nhl going to vegas and seattle before Quebec city.

I don't see how a sports franchise succeeds in Vegas.

First as someone pointed out earlier, there is a finite population to the Vegas metropolitan area, that can compare to other cities, but what Vegas is lacking is the surrounding areas. I came from Philadelphia and the majority of the support for the Philadelphia sports teams came from outside the city. The 5 very populous suburban counties on the Pennsylvania side as well as south Jersey across the river. Even the extended Pa suburbs beyond the immediate 5 suburban counties, places like Lancaster, Harrisburg, Reading, Scranton, Allentown, all an hour to 90 minutes away. Vegas dosen't have that. You get an hour outside of Vegas and you have some ranches and isolated small towns. Those people aren't coming to Vegas for a hockey game. Lol.

On top of that, the population that Vegas does have is the poorest, most transient population, I have ever seen. Large homeless numbers as we all know, but far worse than that is the people and families living day to day....literally, in the many weekly type 'hotels'. Every place has it's homeless and poor, but vegas is outrageous. There are more people a paycheck or government check away from homelessness than I have ever seen anywhere else. Now yes, there some middle class and upper class neighborhoods in the western and southern suburban parts of the city, but without knowing the numbers, I would guess far below the percentages of other cities and areas and far below what is necessary to support a professional sports franchise.

Next there is competition for the entertainment dollar. Every place has this, movies, restaurants, shows, ect, but Vegas has a little more completion for those that have disposable income.

And finally, IMO, hockey is the least likely sport to succeed. This is going to sound politically incorrect, but Vegas has a large Hispanic/Latino population. The official number is like 30-some percent, but I believe it to be much more than that. Typically, I don't thing Latinos are big hockey fans, so you are selling something that doesn't appeal to a large percent of the population. In my opinion, soccer should have been the first step. See how that goes before thinking about any of the major 4 sports.

Quote: kewlj

I don't see how a sports franchise succeeds in Vegas.

Your post has nearly changed my mind. The Vagabonds has a nice ring to it.

But not before QC gets a team.

There are plenty of sports towns in America that are in transplant cities. Phoenix you mentioned as one, and when the Steelers, Packers, Bears, Cowboys come to town the home town does feel like it is playing a road game but I do think it takes 20-30 years for people to grow up rooting for the team and then spend money on it. You see the same thing in Atlanta, it Tampa, and other places, but they will and do eventually develop their own identity. Definitely though, while the team takes root, you will be seeing a lot of opposing fan bases in the stands. I would love to go see my Packers play there. It would be a perfect Friday-Monday excursion centered around a game. Personally I think the NBA would be perfect for Vegas. The last thing you want is a stadium of 75,000 with 30,000 rooting for the other team. They have the arenas with the capacity to field the team (although the NBA might want some more luxury boxes). As a sports fan, I think it something that can and should happen

A lot of good arguments that it would fail. I too, would oppose any taxpayer subsidies.

There are some reasons it might do well. One, it would be and would likely remain our only team. I think the transplants like it here more and are prouder to live here than in a place like Phoenix. Also, legalized sports betting seems to create a more acute interest in sports in general. I'm surprised how many people follow UNLV and even Bishop Gorman. It could become a pretty dedicated fan base, similar to that of the Portland Trailblazers.

In addition to the vacation packages, I figure hotels will buy up a decent amount of tickets to give to high rollers, business people and so forth.

I'm very tempted to put down a deposit for season tickets to the potential Vegas NHL team. My plan would be to sell most of them but it would be fun to attend some of the games. I think the local fan base would be awful. I rarely meet anybody over the age of 30 who was born here. Vegas has got to be the most transient city in America. However, I could see the team being financially successful through selling tickets to Canadians looking for an excuse to come down here.

BTW, I attended a home game of the Ariz Cardinals vs. Minnesota Vikings. I'd say that 60% of the crowd was rooting for the Vikings. The disparity would be even more here.

Hockey won't work. It doesn't work in Phoenix. The Coyotes have never turned a profit in 20 years now. They'll be gone within the next 3 years

Quote: Beardgoat

Hockey won't work. It doesn't work in Phoenix. The Coyotes have never turned a profit in 20 years now. They'll be gone within the next 3 years

HUGE difference in VEGAS s Phoenix.... both have golf to attract a small group that might take in a hockey game against their favorite team.
While VEGAS provides the full long weekend entertainment package....and for lots the hotel may be a free one....hell the casino might even purchase a block of seats to be given away by hosts to bring in the gamblers for the weekend

Football in Detroit can bring in an amazing amount of people for the visiting team....Caesars Windsor on the weekends Green Bay is in to play is flooded with cheeseheads

I just don't see that happening at a large enough scale to be a large percentage of attendance. You think that every year you're going to see thousands of Florida Pathers fans coming to Vegas for hockey? Carolina Hurricanes? Tampa Bay Lightning? No way. You might get a few hundred at the most, but I don't see this as a yearly trip those fans will be making. As for fans back east like New York rangers, islanders, flyers etc... They can already go to Atlantic City. Why fly 3,000 just to go to a hockey game every year?

Biggest draw would be Canadian fans in my opinion.

Don't people move to vegas to avoid the cold?

Quote: Wizard

I'm very tempted to put down a deposit for season tickets to the potential Vegas NHL team. My plan would be to sell most of them but it would be fun to attend some of the games. I think the local fan base would be awful. I rarely meet anybody over the age of 30 who was born here. Vegas has got to be the most transient city in America. However, I could see the team being financially successful through selling tickets to Canadians looking for an excuse to come down here.

BTW, I attended a home game of the Ariz Cardinals vs. Minnesota Vikings. I'd say that 60% of the crowd was rooting for the Vikings. The disparity would be even more here.

There are other markets like that and some in markets that do have professional sports teams, such as Orlando. Vegas has gone through it population boom, and while it is expected to grow over the next 20 years, it is expected to stabilize somewhat. I think that while many people aren't from Vegas, the next generation will have grown up there

Quote: Beardgoat

I just don't see that happening at a large enough scale to be a large percentage of attendance. You think that every year you're going to see thousands of Florida Pathers fans coming to Vegas for hockey? Carolina Hurricanes? Tampa Bay Lightning? No way. You might get a few hundred at the most, but I don't see this as a yearly trip those fans will be making. As for fans back east like New York rangers, islanders, flyers etc... They can already go to Atlantic City. Why fly 3,000 just to go to a hockey game every year?

Biggest draw would be Canadian fans in my opinion.

You are talking about franchises that aren't in the best shape. I would think the Blackhawks would be a draw, the Kings the Rangers, Flyers, Bruins. There will be two types of people to bring in attendance there. 1) Is the people who would come to Vegas centered around the game, but 2) is the people from these areas that are transplanted there already. I know, as a Packers fan, I can go to many towns in America and find myself a Packer bar or a Packer Organization in which to watch the game among friends.

The rangers, bruins, flyers, red wings are already a big draw in current stadiums. I'm sure it will be a big draw in Las Vegas too, just like they are in every city they play. But there is no chance of hundreds or thousands of people each year flying from New York or Philly or Detroit to Vegas every year just for a hockey game. Will people do it? Yes, maybe dozens of fans each year. Will those fans make it a yearly vacation?

Demo household Vegas vs Milwaukee. Looks very similar to me. I don't see Vegas as poor and vagrant. I still don't think they will support an NHL team tho.


Milwaukee
Less than $10,000 12.0%
$10,000 to $14,999 8.2%
$15,000 to $24,999 13.9%
$25,000 to $34,999 13.0%
$35,000 to $49,999 15.7%
$50,000 to $74,999 18.9%
$75,000 to $99,999 9.4%
$100,000 to $149,999 6.5%
$150,000 to $199,999 1.5%
$200,000 or more 1.0%
Median household income (dollars) 37,331
Mean household income (dollars) 47,900
Total households 221,194

Las Vegas
$15,000 13.3
$15,000 - $24,999 11.9
$25,000 - $34,999 12.3
$35,000 - $49,999 16.1
$50,000 - $74,999 18.9
$75,000 - $99,999 11.6
$100,000 - $124,999 6.6
$125,000 - $149,999 3.3
$150,000 - $199,999 3.2
$200,000 - $499,999 2.4
$500,000+ 0.4
Population 606,000

Are there any minor league baseball teams based in Vegas? Or any lower level pro teams? How does the scorching heat in summer effect them? I can't imagine it would be pleasant.

The Las Vegas 51s are a AAA affiliate for the New York Mets. I think most of the games they play are night games. IMO, however, if they were to get an MLB team they would probably have a retractable roof to make it pleasant enough to be at the game.

Las Vegas 51s the Mets Farm team. Most games played at night. Thursday night dollar beer nights are packed.
They just lost the Wranglers minor hockey team. I don't think due to attendance though. They always played at the oreans arena so not a ton of seats.
The 51's are on their 3rd Team in less than 10 years due to the stadium but they cant get the funding to build a new one. They play at Cashman field which is ok but lacks practice facilities.

Quote: Wizard

I'm very tempted to put down a deposit for season tickets to the potential Vegas NHL team. My plan would be to sell most of them but it would be fun to attend some of the games.

It will probably end up making more sense to just buy tickets on the secondary market for the games you would like to attend. There will be lots of them available and you will probably end up getting better seats at a price less than face value. When I was considering buying tickets I realized it would be between $8000 and $10,000 for four decent seats. Considering I will probably only go to five games a year I think I would get better seats for less money and not have to deal with trying to sell the tickets for the other forty games.

Quote: Beardgoat

I just don't see that happening at a large enough scale to be a large percentage of attendance. You think that every year you're going to see thousands of Florida Pathers fans coming to Vegas for hockey? Carolina Hurricanes? Tampa Bay Lightning? No way. You might get a few hundred at the most, but I don't see this as a yearly trip those fans will be making. As for fans back east like New York rangers, islanders, flyers etc... They can already go to Atlantic City. Why fly 3,000 just to go to a hockey game every year?

Biggest draw would be Canadian fans in my opinion.

I admit that the games against teams from the south-east US would not get much interest, I think we would do well enough with teams in the north-east. Plenty of people from the east coast would rather take the time to come to Vegas than the shorter trip to Atlantic City. I do agree that Canadian fans would be the biggest draw.

Quote: DRich

It will probably end up making more sense to just buy tickets on the secondary market for the games you would like to attend. There will be lots of them available and you will probably end up getting better seats at a price less than face value. When I was considering buying tickets I realized it would be between $8000 and $10,000 for four decent seats. Considering I will probably only go to five games a year I think I would get better seats for less money and not have to deal with trying to sell the tickets for the other forty games.

Yeah, that is what the other side of my brain is saying. If the season tickets were a good value then you would expect the private sector to gobble up the tickets as opposed to begging potential fans with huge ads in the LVRJ and commercials on TV.

Quote: Gabes22

The Las Vegas 51s are a AAA affiliate for the New York Mets.

Why 51s? Is that a blackjack deck with and ace removed?

Quote: Wizard

Yeah, that is what the other side of my brain is saying. If the season tickets were a good value then you would expect the private sector to gobble up the tickets as opposed to begging potential fans with huge ads in the LVRJ and commercials on TV.

Don't buy season tickets unless you really, really like the team and sport. Season tickets are for huge fans or businesses who do a ton of entertaining. On a new team you will no be able to sell for any kind of profit. Buying individual will give more flexibility. If you want to take a 3rd person you are locked if you buy just 2 season tix.

I think the NBA would sell better in Vegas than the NHL.

Quote: JimRockford

Why 51s? Is that a blackjack deck with and ace removed?

Area 51

Quote: Wizard

I'm very tempted to put down a deposit for season tickets to the potential Vegas NHL team. My plan would be to sell most of them but it would be fun to attend some of the games. I think the local fan base would be awful. I rarely meet anybody over the age of 30 who was born here. Vegas has got to be the most transient city in America. However, I could see the team being financially successful through selling tickets to Canadians looking for an excuse to come down here.

BTW, I attended a home game of the Ariz Cardinals vs. Minnesota Vikings. I'd say that 60% of the crowd was rooting for the Vikings. The disparity would be even more here.

This was the reasoning when they put teams in florida, that the Canadians there in the winter would support the teams but it hasn't worked out. The c.f.l. tried vegas also and it was a disaster.

Quote: thlf

Demo household Vegas vs Milwaukee. Looks very similar to me. I don't see Vegas as poor and vagrant. I still don't think they will support an NHL team tho.


Milwaukee
Las Vegas

Yeah. And I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there is more unreported cash floating around in Vegas.

Quote: Wizard

I'm very tempted to put down a deposit for season tickets to the potential Vegas NHL team. My plan would be to sell most of them but it would be fun to attend some of the games. I think the local fan base would be awful. I rarely meet anybody over the age of 30 who was born here. Vegas has got to be the most transient city in America. However, I could see the team being financially successful through selling tickets to Canadians looking for an excuse to come down here.

BTW, I attended a home game of the Ariz Cardinals vs. Minnesota Vikings. I'd say that 60% of the crowd was rooting for the Vikings. The disparity would be even more here.

this was in todays Detroit paper....


http://www.freep.com/story/sports/2015/03/13/detroit-sports-city-travel/70276376/

Reports like that are somewhat flawed because it is taking a city like Detroit which has 4 major teams compared to cities with 1 or 2.

Not sure if you can get enough NHL fans for some of the teams but you would certainly get enough support from the 4 western Canada teams. Vancouver already runs junkets to LA and Anaheim sometimes also with Phoenix or San Jose when the Canucks are on a road trip.

It is very popular because even with the air fare and hotels it is cheaper than tickets in Vancouver.

Same thing would happen when the Grizzlies were in Vancouver but in reverse. Lots of American NBA fans had season tickets because they were cheap and easy to get.