Should Buffalo-Hunting be Illegal?

Greetings!

Given the line of discussion in one of the other active threads, I became curious as to the feelings of people on whether or not Silver Mining (aka: Buffalo-Hunting, Sweeping) should be considered an illegal activity.

This is not a question of whether or not the activity is illegal, as that varies by jurisdiction. Further, I should like to avoid the question of whether or not casinos should 86 people for such behavior, as they have a fundamental right as a business to do so regardless of the legality of the act.

I have arguments both in favor and against, and there are certainly more, so I'm going to present a few of mine right now:

Arguments in Favor of Illegality

1.) Player Protection

-I think that a player should be able to play machines comfortably and be able to leave money on a machine with a reasonable expectation that it will still be there provided the player returns in a reasonable period of time. For example, it's kind of a pain when you have to take a leak to have to ticket out, wait for the ticket to print and then come back and put the ticket back in, especially if the acceptor is being uncooperative. It's even more of a pain with coin-dropper machines because it could take some time for all the coins to fall.

-I'm not suggesting that a player should have the right, however, to essentially, "Hold," a machine for an indefinite period of time just because there is money on it. If possible, I think either ten or fifteen minutes would be an acceptable length of time.

-Ultimately, the gaming experience is safer and more pleasant if a player can briefly vacate a machine without worrying about his ticket and/or coins being taken, whether maliciously or without knowing the player would be back.

2.) Casino's Money

-There is an argument to be made that when a good (including money) is left at an establishment, then it becomes the property of that establishment. States have varying regulations in this regard with the personal property law in Ohio (with regards both to businesses and residences) becoming the property of the property owner after thirty days of being unclaimed. However, I do not know if there is a more stringent, less stringent, or no law at all on this in regards to money left behind in the form of credits in the State of Ohio.

-Anyway, the gist of this argument is that the money rightfully belongs to the casino, along with any share that is jurisdictionally bound to go to the State, in the first place.

3.) You Would Have People Constantly Doing This Otherwise

-This is a pretty simple argument, it states that if the only fear is being tossed out, more people would do this.

Arguments in Favor of Legality

1.) Not Hurting Anyone

-In the majority of cases, when credits are left on a machine, it is either done intentionally or out of neglect. I would further say that, in many cases, the player does not return to the machine seeking the credits. If we accept that as true, then there is no reason for this law to exist.

2.) It is NOT the Casino's Money/Finders Keepers

-This argument is that it should be the case that both the casino and anyone inclined to take the money have equal right to the money, so it's just whoever gets to it first. If money is dropped in a retail establishment, for instance, an employee usually has the responsibility to turn the money in to a supervisor or risk termination, but if a customer finds the money first (depending on jurisdiction and, sometimes, amount) the customer can simply take it.

It should be legal, but Casinos can enforce their own policies. But it has to be obvious that it was intentionally left, you can't just nab tickets when people turn around to order a drink, that is theft, but if somebody leaves a machine, and cashes out and walks away, then any tickets they leave should be fair game.

Casinos will end up getting the money either way though.

i did not know there were three different names for this pastime.

do you actively look for abandoned credits? have you cashed over ten TITO's that were from credits left by another player this year?

if so, please consider graduating to something a little more rewarding/less humiliating. I suggest panhandling, or scouting various gas stations for unguarded "take-a-penny" jars.

Simply adding in a ticket or bill, after spotting abandoned credits, playing 1 spin/hand will create a legitimate defence.

The law in NV is murky(other stats its clear) and I believe they have to prove intent. I bet there are cases that went both ways.

They're slot machines, not theater seats. You want to go to the bathroom? Cash out and take your ticket. Someone's taken the machine in those 10 minutes? Tough luck, but there are 3,000 other machines to pick from.

If you leave money in the machine, you are an idiot, and should have NO expectation that it still be there when you get back.

As far as it being legal or not legal, I think that argument gets trumped by it being irredeemably stupid.

Can't have laws making criminals of little people without resources to defend themselves and at the same time letting businesses do the same thing with impunity. I left money in a bank account years ago thinking it was safe, then found out they stole all the money through dormancy fees. Current laws in most states basically say look for the owner and give the money back if you find them or they find you(even Pennsylvania) and you have committed no crime.

I can testify you cannot safely leave money for too long in Pennsylvania because employees cash it out and collect your things so making this specifically illegal won't do any good.

If you want to take a break and come back, get a slot attendant or another player to watch your machine in your absence.


I consider "Buffalo Hunting" essentially the same as "Stooping" at the racebook.

One guy did tell me that he was doing it to buy new little league uniforms. He said he stopped in to one place for 1 sweep through on his way home every day, and that usually was good for a dollar or two. Not sure about the uniforms, but I can believe he could pick up a dollar an hour.

I am pretty sure in PA it is not the casinos money if they find it. It gets turned into the state. It's like a tax on stupid people.

I think it should be illegal personally. If it wasn't then you have people who skirt the lInes and claim found money.

However, I think PA takes it to far. If they see that you actually found it, like it was on the floor then you should be able to keep it.

Quote: Mission146

I'm not suggesting that a player should have the right, however, to essentially, "Hold," a machine for an indefinite period of time just because there is money on it. If possible, I think either ten or fifteen minutes would be an acceptable length of time.

There's no real way to enforce this. "I was only gone for 9:59!" "No, it was 10:01." For that matter, what stops someone from leaving for nine minutes, coming back, playing for one or two minutes, and then leaving again? Any rule along the lines of "if you leave the machine for more than 10 minutes in any 60-minute period, then the machine, and your credits, can be taken by another player" would require keeping track of everybody's machine usage.

Also, how do you indicate that a machine is "in use" - and how long it has been since whoever was last playing it left? Leaving the players' card in the slot is just asking for a rash of card thefts.

I've lost my car before. Just because I don't know where it is and don't know how to get back to it and didn't realize it was lost doesn't mean it's not still mine.

You have no idea how common "abandoned" tickets are. It is a several times a day occurrence even in my small joint. It goes just like this...

Betty comes in and drops $100 in a nickel machine. Nickels come and nickels go. Eventually Betty finds herself with $500.XX and wants to go big. Betty moves to a quarter machine.

The ".XX" is the key. Being nickels, there's 20 possibilities for ".XX" (.05, .10, etc). Only 4 of those 20 are gonna jive with the quarter machine (.25, .50, etc). So chances are real good it's not gonna match. Betty pops in her ticket and unless the .XX is one of the four quarters, the machine is gonna instantly spit out the remainder, which is just a few cents. No one thinks to check this ticket; they just assume the machine didn't take theirs and they try to reinsert it. A quarter machine isn't gonna take a ticket for $0.15, so it keeps spitting it back out. Betty thinks the machine is broken, so she takes the ticket for $0.15 thinking it's her $500 and goes elsewhere, leaving her $500 behind.

It happens all day long, every day of the year. Making it a free for all is gonna cause problems by the truckload.

I think the whole playing solo and needing the restroom aspect is the basis for a lot of the problem. There was an internet café we liked for a little while where all the machines had a sign taped to the front edge, flipped up when not in use, that you could flip down asking people to leave the machine alone while you were in the bathroom or away for a couple of minutes. I'd like to see casinos offer this, maybe with sticky glass cups or something, and I think the vast majority of people would respect the sign for at least a few minutes (the sign could say "reserved for 10 minutes" or something and a person who really wanted the machine could wait it out). It would still be necessary, I think, to ticket-out; that's too much to ask, to leave significant credits sitting there.

As to leftover credits, I do what someone else said: punch the TITO for the ticket and lay it on top, regardless of value. I think it's bad karma to take someone else's leavings. That's just me. However, I think the law should be on the books but not enforced, so they can use it for a significant error, borderline theft, or to help settle disputes, but not do petty enforcements in every case of someone leaving a nickel credit or something. And if someone's buffalo hunting on a regular basis, that's on them and their life choices, without judgment. Perhaps, like other laws regarding value, "grand theft vs. petty theft", for example, there should be an enforcement threshold, like $10/item or something. You find a .05 ticket or a leftover dollar on a machine, surely it's not worth the cost of enforcement to bother you about it.

I don't think the money should belong to either the casino or the state by default. Maybe they should be forced to put all of it into a pool for a drawing among their players' club or something, but it was their patrons' money to start, and collectively it might be a serious amount over a year.

Quote: Mission146

Anyway, the gist of this argument is that the money rightfully belongs to the casino, .

I pointed out in another thread, NV gets 75%
of the money now, so casinos don't do anything
to protect it. The casinos vehemently opposed
the new law in 2011 because before, they kept all
the money themselves.

$600-$1200 a week.

Voucher Vulture

Not a crime according to the article.

Quote: Tanko

$600-$1200 a week.

Voucher Vulture

Used to be $1000 a day. That's a decent income.

Quote: Tanko

$600-$1200 a week.

"He works 12-hour days and finds $600 to $1,200 a week,"

The article about Vegas said they find about $100
a day, so it's about the same. The guy is right, you
can't do it if you look like a bum.

This article is sad.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There's no way in hell this guy looks like a high roller

I can't explain what a high roller looks like, you just know it when you see it. Its not about the clothing, (this guys look and clothing doesn't even say high roller anyway). Again Ive seen high rollers dress terrible, but that's meaningless. Oftentimes you can just tell how they carry themselves. They usually have the look of confidence or something. I doubt anyone single, living with there sister, losing anything they do find, exudes anything but sadness and desperation.

This article seems a bit fluffed to me. $1000 A DAY? I highly doubt that.

Quote: AxelWolf

This article is sad.

Nothing sad about it at all. He probably
thinks what you do is sad. He gets out
of the house, is good at what he does,
and makes a living at it. Nothing sad
about it.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I think the whole playing solo and needing the restroom aspect is the basis for a lot of the problem. There was an internet café we liked for a little while where all the machines had a sign taped to the front edge, flipped up when not in use, that you could flip down asking people to leave the machine alone while you were in the bathroom or away for a couple of minutes. I'd like to see casinos offer this, maybe with sticky glass cups or something, and I think the vast majority of people would respect the sign for at least a few minutes (the sign could say "reserved for 10 minutes" or something and a person who really wanted the machine could wait it out). It would still be necessary, I think, to ticket-out; that's too much to ask, to leave significant credits sitting there.

This would seem to be ripe for players card programming.

If you are a 7 Stars player at Caesars you press a "hold" button and have a number of options for how long the machine is held, say 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 30 minutes, 1 hour or 2 hours. If you are a lowly gold player you get nothing, or maybe 5 minutes. Once you hit the button the machine is locked down, including any funds you have in it, until you return and put in your card and your code. If you exceed the time then a tech is called to open the machine and save the cash to your account, if you elect to cash out prior to holding the machine it just goes back online automatically. Or, since casino's may be risk adverse to having people leave their money in the machine, it could require you to cash out prior to allowing you to hold it.

Seems like that would be player and tech friendly and make everyone's life a little easier, (except for the little old lady who's standing behind you just waiting to vulture your machine).

Quote: Hullabaloo

If you exceed the time then a tech is called to open the machine and save the cash to your account, if you elect to cash out prior to holding the machine it just goes back online automatically.

The types of superstitious gamblers that you think this might appeal to would probably be put off by it, convinced that holding/locking the machine will disrupt the natural flow of the RNG and assure them to lose* as soon as they come back.


*... at a greater than expected rate.

Quote: Dieter

The types of superstitious gamblers that you think this might appeal to would probably be put off by it, convinced that holding/locking the machine will disrupt the natural flow of the RNG and assure them to lose* as soon as they come back.


*... at a greater than expected rate.

Don't think the superstitious type even know what an RNG is.

I like the idea though.

Quote: EvenBob

Nothing sad about it at all. He probably
thinks what you do is sad. He gets out
of the house, is good at what he does,
and makes a living at it. Nothing sad
about it.

It's sad that he wastes all his hard work on horse bets, as he states.

Quote: AxelWolf

This article seems a bit fluffed to me. $1000 A DAY? I highly doubt that.

I think you are dead on there. An interesting article but why should the "journalist" be bothered with doing any confirmation on whether Mr. Bemsel is full of *%#$ regarding his claim of profitability.

my experience with people who make variable amounts of money per week, is that they will take the best week they ever had [roughly] and claim they make that all the time.

Quote: odiousgambit

my experience with people who make variable amounts of money per week, is that they will take the best week they ever had [roughly] and claim they make that all the time.

The truth lies somewhere in between. Some people do seem to try seemingly full time anywhere allowed. Depends if they take it to practically stealing or not by taking from people just around the corner with jacket and ashtray on the seat. Of course it threatens longevity being kicked out, but some people make up for brains with balls and don't care.

Quote: EvenBob

"He works 12-hour days and finds $600 to $1,200 a week,"

How many days a week? 12 hours a day scouting for lights on a rows of machines.

I mean, that is easy, you can easily spot lights on a machine where all the others are dark or have a different pattern.

But that sounds like a hella lot of walking.

Compared to sitting and playing 20 minutes for a known bonus you find.

Quote: rxwine

But that sounds like a hella lot of walking.

The great workout program is just one of many perks the job offers.

Quote: odiousgambit

my experience with people who make variable amounts of money per week, is that they will take the best week they ever had [roughly] and claim they make that all the time.

Speaking as someone who reviews credit applications all day long, I guarantee you that you are correct. It always falls apart in verification.

Quote: Mosca

Speaking as someone who reviews credit applications all day long, I guarantee you that you are correct. It always falls apart in verification.

Mosca, you should do a post about what you learn about human nature based on reviewing credit applications. (or maybe a blog post). If you think it would be interesting.

It reminds me of the creeps who steal waitresses tips in restaurants.

Milling about the casino to look for those who are ignorant of slot machines or think placing a twenty dollar bill inside the machine puts the money on their card and they can now take the card with them without having to hit that cash out button must be the Nevada equivalent of retrieving luggage carts at airports.

Quote: EvenBob

Nothing sad about it at all. He probably
thinks what you do is sad. He gets out
of the house, is good at what he does,
and makes a living at it. Nothing sad
about it.

Really?
scouring the floor and trash everyday. single
daily two-train, two-hour trip from Metuchen, N.J. still lives with his sister



Mr. Bemsel said,
He works 12-hour days and finds $600 to $1,200 but winds up blowing most of it on bad horse picks.
"I do this is to feed my gambling addiction,” he said. “It’s an illness.”

I’ll hit a big one, one of these days, and be back on top.”

Quote: AxelWolf

Really?
scouring the floor and trash everyday. single
daily two-train, two-hour trip from Metuchen, N.J. still lives with his sister



Mr. Bemsel said,
He works 12-hour days and finds $600 to $1,200 but winds up blowing most of it on bad horse picks.
"I do this is to feed my gambling addiction,” he said. “It’s an illness.”

I’ll hit a big one, one of these days, and be back on top.”

You missed something in your quote. It says $600 to $1200 a week. Most likely he is working at least six days a week. He is probably making $10 an hour.

Quote: AxelWolf

Really?
scouring the floor and trash everyday. single
daily two-train, two-hour trip from Metuchen, N.J. still lives with his sister

You should hear what I think about what you
do. But I don't want a suspension.

Quote: EvenBob

You should hear what I think about what you
do. But I don't want a suspension.

I'll bite. What is wrong with what Axel or any other AP player like him does? Using math skills to make money off of advantages that are there for anyone to find if they are smart enough? Utilizing promotions casinos are not smart enough to think through?

Please tell us what you think. If it is fact based, I doubt you will get suspended. As if that should be a concern to keep you from posting your opinion.

Quote: Face

It happens all day long, every day of the year. Making it a free for all is gonna cause problems by the truckload.

Then the casino and computer experts had darn well better sit down and solve the problem if its all day long, every day of the year.
And it doesn't matter if its pennies or quarters or dollars or whatever. Its an annoyance to the customers if it happens once and its most certainly an annoyance to the casino employees if its all day long, every day of the year.

Just how many employees have to take time from their real duties to handle some of these misunderstood TITO problems? Surveillance personnel can not watch for switching cards at BlackJack when they are running tapes backwards to verify a thirty-five cent TITO error. What better cover is there for a team of card switchers than to send in some grey haired grandmotherly types and then have them line up for TITO problems to be resolved.

Seems to be a glaring problem that someone somewhere is probably already exploiting.

Reminds me of an episode of extreme cheapskates. A Greek guy goes to car washes pretending to have lost a ring in the vacuum. Once through having an attendant open the trap, he has his minor children root through the collection stealing all the coins jewelry and valuables they can find. He palms a ring pretending he found his lost ring and takes off.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

Reminds me of an episode of extreme cheapskates. A Greek guy goes to car washes pretending to have lost a ring in the vacuum. Once through having an attendant open the trap, he has his minor children root through the collection stealing all the coins jewelry and valuables they can find. He palms a ring pretending he found his lost ring and takes off.

Sounds like a form of AP to me. There are lots
of car washes in Vegas, don't tell you know who..

Heard an update from a patron at Rivers tonight. She said if she found money, she can turn it into security and if nobody claims it in 30 days, she can have it. I imagine she was speaking the truth.

That sounds reasonable.

Why do so many people think this should be legal?

If someone leaves their bag at a bar stool, you can't just walk up and help yourself.

Quote: gamerfreak

Why do so many people think this should be legal?

If someone leaves their bag at a bar stool, you can't just walk up and help yourself.

That's a totally different thing for a few reasons:

A.) The bag is readily identifiable and traceable by the owner, moreover, the bag may actually contain information that ties it to its owner.

B.) Depending on the amount of the slot ticket in question, it could arguably be said that the person left it behind more-or-less intentionally. You see this happen quite a bit on slots upon which the person no longer has enough to make the maximum bet, or whatever it was they were betting. That's one reason I actually do like the slots with the, 'Wager Saver,' feature, that essentially does away with leaving tickets behind.

C.) Slot tickets left behind are a huge PITA in Pennsylvania, a jurisdiction where it IS actually illegal to take them. On such machines, you either have to print out the voucher and set it on top of the machine or give it to security. As a practical matter, I don't think it would often become an issue...but if the casino actually WANTED a particular person gone, they could make it a bigger deal than it really is.

D.) Unlike a bar where a reasonable effort is going to be made to find and return the bag to its rightful owner, it is difficult to say what a casino will do or how much they will even be able to do to identify the owner of the ticket.

My position is let each casino develop their own policy. I spoke with a casino manager in Vegas about voucher vultures and he said they don't like them but there isn't much you can do about it. After you trespass them but they just come back. The police won't bother to take them to jail for violating a trespass over nickel and dime slot tickets. There seems to be an unspoken agreement between casino security and the policy to only bother the LVPD over major crimes.

I would vote in favor a law against voucher vulturing but intent should have to be proven. For example, a documented case of a patron being warned about it and then he does it again. I wouldn't want to see little old ladies thrown in jail over picking up a 2-cent voucher from the floor.

Quote: Wizard

I would vote in favor a law against voucher vulturing but intent should have to be proven. For example, a documented case of a patron being warned about it and then he does it again. I wouldn't want to see little old ladies thrown in jail over picking up a 2-cent voucher from the floor.

Much less adding money to a machine with credits on it already and legitimately playing the machine, technically a crime in PA, you have to cash out the voucher for the credits already on it first.

Quote: Mission146

Much less adding money to a machine with credits on it already and legitimately playing the machine, technically a crime in PA, you have to cash out the voucher for the credits already on it first.

I know that could happen accidentally but I tend to think the vast majority of the time it is just cover for a credit stealer.

Once when I was playing at the Four Queens with a friend. He went to the bathroom and asked me to guard his machine. While I was playing my own machine, some vulture sat down, put in $1, made a $5 max bet, lost the hand, and cashed out some $100 in credits. That is when I woke from my video poker induced trance and stopped him from taking the credits. Casino security then showed up and rightly trespassed the vulture.

I had that happen at The D, but it was $15 in actual nickels, or something like that. The sad thing is I had to go to the restroom, so I offered the guy sitting near me a buck to make sure nobody cashed out my machine...and he's the one who did it, I'm sure! His girlfriend was with him, hopefully she broke up with him as a result.

Quote: gamerfreak

Why do so many people think this should be legal?

If someone leaves their bag at a bar stool, you can't just walk up and help yourself.

It has always been common law. If you find something, you try to find the owner, and return the property to them if you find them or they find you. Otherwise it is yours. The law Is even this way in Pennsylvania, but somehow people are brainwashed and cannot see or comprehend the fine print right in front of them. Sometimes the key 🔑 is whether something is lost or abandoned.
As soon as casinos came to Ohio, the state changed unclaimed funds reporting minimums from ten to fifty dollars. Always assumed so casinos could keep these titos people don't take, but I'm not sure.

Quote: Wizard

He went to the bathroom and asked me to guard his machine.

the lesson to be learned is to say "Dude! Cash out and get a ticket! Tip the seat and I'll still save the spot for you"

Quote: Wizard

I know that could happen accidentally but I tend to think the vast majority of the time it is just cover for a credit stealer.

Once when I was playing at the Four Queens with a friend. He went to the bathroom and asked me to guard his machine. While I was playing my own machine, some vulture sat down, put in $1, made a $5 max bet, lost the hand, and cashed out some $100 in credits. That is when I woke from my video poker induced trance and stopped him from taking the credits. Casino security then showed up and rightly trespassed the vulture.

Oh what A bunch of BS. In my whole life of playing machines I never heard such BS. I guard machines next to me everyday. Someone sat right next to you and you didn't realize it and your gambling at a casino and your friend went to the bathroom and your not on high alert?? You didn't put a jacket or bag on the chair or an astray on the chair or pull the chair close to you draping your arm over the chair? Some credit hustler sat down right beside you and played and cashed out and you didn't even notice?? You deserve far worse than some credits being stolen from a machine next to you. Really unbelievable negligence... Not only to yourself but to your friend as well! I don't believe this bs story one minute! Your telling me that you didn't play the machine so it's in the middle of a hand so nobody can put money in or out??

Quote: odiousgambit

the lesson to be learned is to say "Dude! Cash out and get a ticket! Tip the seat and I'll still save the spot for you"

The machine in question was an old coin one that didn't have TITO. The 10-7 Double Bonus bank at the Four Queens, to be specific.