Did Mission's Divorce Agreement Suck?

Quote: Mission146

I've recently made a similar decision in the context of my divorce by which I voluntarily entered into a VERY one-sided spousal support agreement with my ex-wife by which I have assured she and the kids have transportation, housing and I pay 100% of the bills with her getting child support on top of it until she is out of nursing school. I currently have zero cars when, if I went with just the court-ordered child/spousal support amounts based on my income, I'd have enough money left that I could afford three or four car payments...besides that, there's also the fact that I'd still have the PT Cruiser that I had already and gave to them!

And my phone didn't ring why, exactly…?

Quote: aceofspades

And my phone didn't ring why, exactly…?

My side of the deal is that when she gets a nursing job, we have joint custody and I have to pay exactly nothing (including no child support) from that point forward, so it kind of balances in the end.

Quote: Mission146

My side of the deal is that when she gets a nursing job, we have joint custody and I have to pay exactly nothing (including no child support) from that point forward, so it kind of balances in the end.

You know the kids need a college education fund, don't you ? Of course you do. Forgot who I was talking about for a minure SORRY

Quote: Mission146

My side of the deal is that when she gets a nursing job, we have joint custody and I have to pay exactly nothing (including no child support) from that point forward, so it kind of balances in the end.

You have that in writing, it's a legal
and binding agreement? Cause if
it's just a hand shake deal, you will
probably be surprised down the
road. Them womens be fickle
characters, especially when they
see you doing well and having fancy
young chicklets on your arm.

Quote: boymimbo

As for your decisions you made for your children and justifying the over-amount that you paid, the guidelines are there for a reason. There is absolutely no reason why you couldn't go with the court ordered settlement and then GIVE, voluntarily, over that amount. My court ordered settlement is the minimum I can pay, but that allows me to pay 100% for the extras for my child and enrich her life by having the choice and the money for my kid to do extra-curricaulars and go on trips, etc. You can look after your kids voluntarily without a court order... happens all of the time with responsible parents.

Essentially, with this deal, I have the long-term financial benefit of not paying child support to someone who doesn't need it after my ex-wife is out of school and has a nursing job. At that point, we will have 100% split custody, (nurses usually work three twelves on/four days off and then vice-versa, so the kids will likely split their time at our residences in this fashion) and all of this as well as waiving any form of support is also in the settlement order.

So, it's not that the Court ordered me to do this, per se, I wrote the settlement order myself.

Quote: Buzzard

You know the kids need a college education fund, don't you ? Of course you do. Forgot who I was talking about for a minure SORRY

Oh, yes, they'll be spending equal time at our residences when my ex-wife is nursing.

Quote: EvenBob

You have that in writing, it's a legal
and binding agreement? Cause if
it's just a hand shake deal, you will
probably be surprised down the
road. Them womens be fickle
characters, especially when they
see you doing well and having fancy
young chicklets on your arm.

It's all part of the Court ordered settlement agreement for spousal/child support, which I wrote. I also claim both kids for tax years 2014&2015, after which, each of us will claim one of the children.

I'm surprised she agreed to it. Those kids
will get much more expensive as they get
older and she let you off the hook financially
when she gets out of school? Why?

Quote: Mission146

My side of the deal is that when she gets a nursing job, we have joint custody and I have to pay exactly nothing (including no child support) from that point forward, so it kind of balances in the end.

I do not know which state you are in but, most, if not all states, do not allow a waiver of child support as the parent cannot waive the rights of the child to be supported…if she falls on hard times or just gets the proverbial bug up her ass - you can bet the Court will award her child support, agreement or not!

Just reading through the other thread and WOW, some really negative reactions that don't make sense to me.

What kind of "personal information" did you give up to join this site? A username, and an email address, that's it. No "real names" are involved, unless you happened to use your real name when you registered.

The worst that could happen, as I see it, is the new owners start sending us unsolicited email (SPAM). I would hope that the Wiz discouraged them from doing this during the deal. Even if he didn't, if they don't provide an "unsubscribe" button then they will severely negatively impact their street cred. It would be a really bad PR move for them to start spamming people.

Barring substantial changes in how the forum is run (a total possibility, of course) I don't see a reason to immediately jump ship just because of an ownership change.

Quote: EvenBob

You have that in writing, it's a legal
and binding agreement? Cause if
it's just a hand shake deal, you will
probably be surprised down the
road. Them womens be fickle
characters, especially when they
see you doing well and having fancy
young chicklets on your arm.

I have to agree with Bob,
She finishes school, meets a new man and he's telling her get the support so they have more fun with more money.

I beg to differ. Mission married a lady.

Quote: aceofspades

I do not know which state you are in but, most, if not all states, do not allow a waiver of child support as the parent cannot waive the rights of the child to be supported…if she falls on hard times or just gets the proverbial bug up her ass - you can bet the Court will award her child support, agreement or not!

It seems that the State of Ohio allows for this as it was in the Court Order, which again, I personally wrote. Besides, it also states that we'd each be taking what they call, "Residential Custody," of one child, so neither of us would owe the other anything, anyway.

Quote: EvenBob

I'm surprised she agreed to it. Those kids
will get much more expensive as they get
older and she let you off the hook financially
when she gets out of school? Why?

First of all, she'll be making more money than me. Secondly, she is very pleased with, in light of the fact that neither of us wanted to be married to the other anymore, that she will be able to get through school with exactly zero worries about finances or any need to move out of the marital house. Third of all, I'm not, "Off the hook financially," they'll be spending an equal amount of time at each residence and, besides that, we're going half on school clothes, insurance and all of those other types of things.

Good luck to all, but I'd have established a reasonable graduation deadline and reasonable expected time of high paying nurses's job thereby denying her any opportunity to have psychological problems with being a nurse or going on to graduate school or getting a low paying nurses job.

Quote: Buzzard

I beg to differ. Mission married a lady.

Because Buzzard and others have given considerable respect to the lady [who I never met] I will refrain.

On another issue, I am informed that Pierce has taken steps to rectify some other matters, which although they evidently spun out of control due less to his own neglect but instead actions by persons I will respectfully refrain from mentioning, required that he man-up and face them. So it is with relief I give him his due on that.

I hope, Mission, that your ex-wife doesn't turn around on you in a couple of years and tries to renegotiate things. Life and money change people and their goals as do the needs of children. Miscommunications in friendships especially when new beaus come along typically result in hatred and jealousies. The state of Ohio will recognize law, not your agreement, in the end, and I would not be surprised one iota if there isn't attempt for your ex-wife to go for full custody and the monetary benefits that come with it. That could easily be accomplished by not completing nursing school, or rather than becoming an RN, go down the LPN route, or not find a job, etc. There are plenty of ways where this agreement can go south.

I'm not saying that Beth is b--ch crazy.

What I am saying is that priorities change. Kids grow. Parents grow attached to their kids. The parent with custody does not want to let them go. The parent will look at their financial situation with the support coming in and will typically choose to screw over the ex-spouse and work the minimum rather than embarking on the more difficult path (for her) that you've chosen and use the excuse that she's staying home and working less for the sake of the children. And it's prime time. You've got limited access to your kids right now. They are building their life around their mother and your involvement because you are lacking a vehicle is minimized. Easily, if the ex has someone else in her life, the someone else can take over the chores of picking up and dropping off the kids. In a couple of years, your kids might NOT want to spend significant chunks of life with you because it interferes with their lifestyle and friends.

So, don't be surprised if in a couple of years that your ex drops nursing school, chooses a less demanding career, keeps the support payments and keeps custody. She will go to the court, tell the sob story of how she couldn't finish nursing school, how her income isn't as expected, and that it's in the children's best interests to stay with you, and continue the defacto arrangement that you've gladly signed over.

Court orders are easily changeable. Situations change. Past performance does not guarantee future results, and frankly, you have no recourse in the future if the situation changes. The courts will alway work with what is in the children's CURRENT (and best guess at the future) BEST INTEREST and you will get no credit for what you are doing now in the court's eyes, and besides the point, the children won't WANT to spend time with you anyway.

I hope that I am wrong, but I speak from very personal experience, pretty much doing exactly what you did. I thought at the start, just as you did, that we could be two mature adults. But children and time changes people's perspective and priorities. My kid told me a couple of years back that she hated coming over every other weekend because she couldn't do the activities she wanted to do, hated the transfer and hated the driving.

GET a CAR and spend as much time with the children that you can and hope that your ex follows through on her side of the arrangement.

Hey Buddy,

Let's talk at WoV East (or before/after) about financing you a car. I may have one for you.

-Your friendly neighborhood banker :)

What does the agreement you drafted provide in the event she chooses to relocate her and the kids' current residence such that the notion of shared residential time in the future is not workable?

For example, what if tomorrow she meets a new guy (or gal: hell, it's a changing world), they marry and the new spouse gets transferred to NYC, and she wants to follow with the kids?

In the end how you will fare depends on the life choices she makes and upon whether she chooses to honor the agreement.

Quote: MrV

In the end how you will fare depends on the life choices she makes and upon whether she chooses to honor the agreement.

Indeed, plus, the $0 in alimony and child support only works in practice if you actually say no when the kids come calling. That's not exactly easy to do.

Quote: FleaStiff

Good luck to all, but I'd have established a reasonable graduation deadline and reasonable expected time of high paying nurses's job thereby denying her any opportunity to have psychological problems with being a nurse or going on to graduate school or getting a low paying nurses job.

this was my thought. I see all the time on the judge shows where the person agrees that they owe money but said there was never a time line. The judge sometimes says they are within their rights not to pay yet but sometimes they say there has been more than enough time. Either way I would have said in the agreement that she has to continue the normal course at a specified graduation year. Also, what happens if she does not pass the nurse examine. You are hopefully aware that more than half of the students that start nursing school never become a nurse.

Quote: FleaStiff

Good luck to all, but I'd have established a reasonable graduation deadline and reasonable expected time of high paying nurses's job thereby denying her any opportunity to have psychological problems with being a nurse or going on to graduate school or getting a low paying nurses job.

I never said we did not establish that, she has two total years to complete all, which means she can finish one semester behind schedule, if necessary.

Quote: MrV

What does the agreement you drafted provide in the event she chooses to relocate her and the kids' current residence such that the notion of shared residential time in the future is not workable?

For example, what if tomorrow she meets a new guy (or gal: hell, it's a changing world), they marry and the new spouse gets transferred to NYC, and she wants to follow with the kids?

In the end how you will fare depends on the life choices she makes and upon whether she chooses to honor the agreement.

Neither of us can move more than 200 miles away from the County in which we were married without the written consent of the other until the children are 18.

(She thought I'd move to Vegas...lol...so she wanted that in there)

Quote: Mission146

I never said we did not establish that, she has two total years to complete all, which means she can finish one semester behind schedule, if necessary.

Is she planning to get a BSN on that schedule? If not...don't be surprised to be paying up later. At my g/f's work they have been pushing LPNs to either get their BSNs or lose their jobs. It's also pretty sad that a teacher in Missouri makes nearly as much as a nurse...and teachers are definitely underpaid here. If my g/f realized that, I don't think she wouldn't have ever bothered with nursing. The only plus with nursing in Missouri (if you have a bachelors) is job security. Of course, she'd rather work with kids...but she is forced to work with adults for now. :-\

Quote: Mission146

Neither of us can move more than 200 miles away from the County in which we were married without the written consent of the other until the children are 18.

(She thought I'd move to Vegas...lol...so she wanted that in there)

I am not going to say much on the situation as it is not my business except to say it seems that most details were covered, not surprising given Mission's detail-oriented personality. It also goes to show how much better things go when both sides (from outward appearances) act mature and logical and don't just play mind games to get each other better.

I have read divorce agreements over a dozen pages long. Taking it down to the minute of the day when the kids get turned over from one side to the next. Deciding who gets the tax benefit is one thing, but it is just amazing how many people cannot make a simple agreement for the kids. Then there is testimony of how they treated each other.

In my life I am beginning to know more and more divorced friends or those effectively divorced. I am glad none have really been off the rails.

Quote: tringlomane

Is she planning to get a BSN on that schedule? If not...don't be surprised to be paying up later. At my g/f's work they have been pushing LPNs to either get their BSNs or lose their jobs. It's also pretty sad that a teacher in Missouri makes nearly as much as a nurse...and teachers are definitely underpaid here. If my g/f realized that, I don't think she wouldn't have ever bothered with nursing. The only plus with nursing in Missouri (if you have a bachelors) is job security. Of course, she'd rather work with kids...but she is forced to work with adults for now. :-\

She's in the process of getting a BSN, she could be an LPN right now.

Trust me, damn few women go into Nursing for the money alone. Shame it didn't work out, Mission.

Quote: AZDuffman

I am not going to say much on the situation as it is not my business except to say it seems that most details were covered, not surprising given Mission's detail-oriented personality. It also goes to show how much better things go when both sides (from outward appearances) act mature and logical and don't just play mind games to get each other better.

I have read divorce agreements over a dozen pages long. Taking it down to the minute of the day when the kids get turned over from one side to the next. Deciding who gets the tax benefit is one thing, but it is just amazing how many people cannot make a simple agreement for the kids. Then there is testimony of how they treated each other.

In my life I am beginning to know more and more divorced friends or those effectively divorced. I am glad none have really been off the rails.

My standard divorce agreement is 73 pages long

Quote: aceofspades

My standard divorce agreement is 73 pages long

But aren't the last 30 pages the details
of your billing breakdown?

Quote: EvenBob

But aren't the last 30 pages the details
of your billing breakdown?

HAHA

While this is humorous, I must go into some detail here…

If an attorney (in most states) represents the "non-monied" spouse (meaning they have no income or have not been the primary earner in the family throughout the marriage), the spouse who is the "monied" spouse may be ordered to pay the other spouse's legal fees. Now, before we all get our panties in a bunch, if you look at it closely, you see that, as monies earned during the marriage are considered marital, the spouse is merely paying from the marital pot for the other spouse during the divorce (as the parties are still married).

Judges, however, can sometimes be shortsighted, biased or idiots (sometimes all three) and will refuse to order attorney fees for the "non-monied" spouse. This results in either the attorney attempting to be released from the case, which, is usually not granted if the only dispute is whether or not the attorney will get paid or, the attorney will be ordered by the Court to continue working on the case and "collect later". I have always believed that a 13th amendment claim of indentured servitude could be brought.

I have attorney colleagues that are owed tens of thousands of dollars in attorney fees. Clients have become hip to this attitude of the Courts that all attorneys are so wealthy that they need not be paid regularly. Additionally, I am owed tens of thousands as well at the moment. Will I ever see this money, who knows??? Yet, I have not been allowed "off" the case as it is close to trial and the client would be "prejudiced" if they were left at this stage of the case without legal counsel. Of course, attorneys be damned!

People love to lash out at attorneys but they fail to see this side of the equation. While there are legal remedies such as suing the client for the fees, most states require mandatory arbitration of such, which is usually client friendly. Additionally, once these proceedings are initiated, you can guarantee the client will all of a sudden come up with every possible scenario under which the attorney has committed malpractice and file a suit for that. Finally, even if you are lucky to obtain a judgment against them, these are people who rarely worked during their marriage and now find themselves "depending upon the kindness of strangers" (aka living with family or a new significant other) and thusly, it is difficult to find any income to garnish. Additionally, these people sometimes move to a state that does not allow income garnishment for judgments nor does it allow liens on any assets purchased with another party. So, there goes that idea.

I can endure all the attorney jokes you can throw at me but having to endure the reality of the bias against attorneys actually collecting from their clients is far worse.

Quote: Buzzard

Trust me, damn few women go into Nursing for the money alone. Shame it didn't work out, Mission.

I don't really know how to respond to that, my ex-wife and I both recognize that we are fundamentally incompatible and are happy to be divorced and pursuing new romantic interests. Besides, she's as much as said she's in nursing for the money alone...lol

Hopefully, the forum is still here a few years down the road and you can let us know how it all turns out!!!! I wish you the best and hope that your ex fulfills her side of the bargain. In the meantime, please, for your children's sake, get yourself a car and see them as much as you possibly can.

Quote: Mission146

Besides, she's as much as said she's in nursing for the money alone...lol

Well, I hope Ohio pays way better than Missouri for nurses then...

Of course I think nurses in hospitals should start at $50,000 a year at least (they don't here).

Quote: aceofspades

I can endure all the attorney jokes you can throw at me but having to endure the reality of the bias against attorneys actually collecting from their clients is far worse.

Anybody who is a friend of a lawyer
knows their life is feast or famine if
they have a solo practice. They spend
half their time trying to get money
owed them. It's the same with many
doctors. People just assume doctors
and lawyers are very wealthy and can
be screwed out of what their owed without
a second thought.

An ex lawyer of mine was disbarred 3
years ago and spent 18 months in a club
fed for tax evasion because he was so
broke most of the time he had no money
to pay his taxes. Of course he did have
a 100 acre horse farm that he couldn't
afford, but that's another story.

Quote: EvenBob

An ex lawyer of mine was disbarred 3
years ago and spent 18 months in a club
fed for tax evasion because he was so
broke most of the time he had no money
to pay his taxes. Of course he did have
a 100 acre horse farm that he couldn't
afford, but that's another story.

So that makes you assume all lawyers are like this?

Quote: tringlomane

Well, I hope Ohio pays way better than Missouri for nurses then...

Of course I think nurses in hospitals should start at $50,000 a year at least (they don't here).

a friend of mine just got hired a few months back as a nurse. 2 year degree so not sure what kind she is but UPMC started her at $23 an hour and then got bumped up to $26 an hour after 90 days.

Quote: tringlomane

So that makes you assume all lawyers are like this?

Are like what, get disbarred for tax evasion? So
obtuse it doesn't deserve an answer.

Quote: EvenBob

Are like what, get disbarred for tax evasion? So
obtuse it doesn't deserve an answer.

LOL

Quote: tringlomane

LOL

Obtuse: slow-witted, unintelligent, ignorant

Quote: EvenBob

Obtuse: slow-witted, unintelligent, ignorant

Really?

I wrote my response because I'd rather not get suspended because I don't trust myself to avoid it like you have about 100 times.

Quote: tringlomane

Really?

I wrote my response because I'd rather not get suspended because I don't trust myself to avoid it like you have about 100 times.

Avoiding getting suspended is an art
form around here. It's a challenge I
gladly accept. For instance, saying
what you wrote is obtuse is not saying
you yourself are obtuse. Everyone is
obtuse once in awhile. Everyone..

Quote: aceofspades

Yet, I have not been allowed "off" the case as it is close to trial and the client would be "prejudiced" if they were left at this stage of the case without legal counsel.

While I don't claim to be familiar with NJ state and local court rules re: withdrawal of attorneys, I am certain you could have withdrawn earlier, had you not waited too long.

Why wait to be "trapped" into staying on involuntarily on a divorce trial?

Just withdraw earlier.

Easy.

Quote: tringlomane

So that makes you assume all lawyers are like this?

No I assume most are much worse !

Been dying to reply, but been on a bit of a bender lately. I'm slightly clear headed at the moment, so let me jump on this opportunity.

Please bookmark, copy/paste, print, and read what boymimbo has said. I'd start with 5 times a day for the next two weeks, and probably increase it after that.

You are smart. You have integrity, common sense, a drive to do the "good thing". Like most men, I've no doubt you are honor bound and covered most bases in the sort of unquestioning black-and-white that I'd expect. And as great as this all is, it will be your undoing.

I don't know a single thing about Beth, and it doesn't matter. Much, much sooner than you think, you will no longer know her either. Every bit of your perfect arrangement will slowly but surely start to make no sense at all, for one party or the other. I'm sure your agreement currently has the best interest of the children in mind. But sure as the sun will rise tomorrow, your individual ideas of "what's best" will change, and they'll do so a lot sooner than you expected.

In the words of the Rza, "Protek yo gotdamn neck". You are, step for step, following me down the same path to disaster that I chose. And as someone who has spent >0 minutes contemplating the feasibility of employing a hit man, I fear for your future.

You built what was no doubt a sensible agreement founded on logic and honor. And those traits will evaporate faster than paint thinner on hot asphalt. Brace yourself, dear boy.

Quote: Face

You built what was no doubt a sensible agreement founded on logic and honor. And those traits will evaporate faster than paint thinner on hot asphalt. Brace yourself, dear boy.

That's basically what I said. People change,
it's inevitable. And needs change, so agreements
have to change and it's always for the worst.

It's real simple. You have a whole lot of people
involved in this. Soon the kids will be making
demands, the eventual boyfriend of your wife
and whatever girl you end up with will be making
demands, but mostly your ex will change and
start re-evaluating everything. That's why Ace
has 100 page divorce contracts, he anticipates
all these demands and covers them early on.

I can't agree more with the two posts above. The courts will make sure that the agreement covers the kids needs - one should NOT voluntarily go above and beyond that. I've been happily divorced for almost 20 years, the reasonable and agreeable ex wife of 20 years ago has changed about a dozen times during the years. In the end I raised the kids myself during the last 6-8 years as each turned 18. Go above and beyond based on what you feel is best for your kids OUTSIDE the agreement..... My kids had everything they needed growing up - I didn't have to give away everything to the ex to make it happen..... Mission I wish you the best....

You guys are scaring the bejeezus out of me and I'm not the one in the hot seat. Yikes!

Don't marry.

Don't reproduce.

Don't fall in love.

Devote all your spare time to gambling and the internet.

Problem solved.

Quote: MrV

Don't marry.

Don't reproduce.

Don't fall in love.

Devote all your spare time to gambling and the internet.

Problem solved.

Bingo! Well, almost....

For me marriage worked long enough for me to have 3 amazing kids, I'd do the same thing all over.... The 20 years post marriage has been the best, can't ever see getting married ever again, I love women but the way I look at it is that I have a great thing going, why risk messing it up? Besides the solo trips to Vegas are amazing!!!

Quote: andyg99

the reasonable and agreeable ex wife of 20 years ago has changed about a dozen times during the years...

Only a dozen? You got lucky, they often change
a couple times a year.