86'd from m life for 6 months
A trespass ban means they can get you in the parking structure, the interior sidewalk areas approaching the property, ... not just the casino.
If you had been banned from the M-Life program, you can simply not take part in the program but I would imagine walking around on their property or paying cash to have a meal won't be an issue.
If you were banned from their table games then you cannot gamble at their tables but slots are no issue at all.
All MGM properties share information between them but if you are banned from playing table games at one prpoerty it doesn't mean you are banned from all of them.
It really depends on what you did and if you are a recognisable AP or not.
Hope this helps
I never looked into how to do that, or whether it is even possible given current technology.
Quote: MrVCan you somehow easily modify your appearance so as to defeat their facial recognition measures?
I never looked into how to do that, or whether it is even possible given current technology.
Facial recognition.....youre funny :)
Quote: TomspurFacial recognition.....youre funny :)
Not my intent.
Isn't that how "undesirables" are detected: automatically via comparing the current image caught by camera to images of all "undesirables?"
If that isn't how they do it, then HOW DO THEY DO IT?
Was this a confrontation in the poker room or something?
Quote: AxelWolfObviously this was not AP related since normally when they 86 for that, you are done, unless you talk your way back in. I guess there could be specific laws regarding the length of time a 86ing is good for.
Was this a confrontation in the poker room or something?
yeah come on, we need details.
Preferably including pics of the tantrum on the casino floor involving "Tempest & Tiffany" throwing racks of black chips.Quote: GWAEyeah come on, we need details.
Quote: MrVNot my intent.
Isn't that how "undesirables" are detected: automatically via comparing the current image caught by camera to images of all "undesirables?"
If that isn't how they do it, then HOW DO THEY DO IT?
I know exactly how they do it but I'm not going to discuss it here. I used to work for them so I know a little something of their procedures but somewhere deep down inside me it would feel wrong to put all their secrets on an open forum :)
What I do find very strange is that they took away all your offers? There is no way in hell that is legal.
I would speak to the Nevada Gaming Commission to find out more. Be curteous and nice and I'm sure they will help you or at least give you good information. That is their jobs.
All the best
Quote: sodawaterI was under the impression that if you are "trespassed" from a Nevada casino, they still have to give you a chance to leave willingly if they spot you in there. Is this not correct?
As far as I know you are 100% correct. They cannot forcibly remove you or call the cops until you show that you are unwilling to co-operate or if you break their tresspass on several occasions proving you have no intention of leaving on your own.
But casinos have done much stranger things.............
Quote: sodawaterI was under the impression that if you are "trespassed" from a Nevada casino, they still have to give you a chance to leave willingly if they spot you in there. Is this not correct?
I used to believe this was true as well. That was the ruling in the Wilkinson Case back in the 70's. But in a recent discussion with Attorney Bob Nersesian, he stated, that this is not the law, but it is common policy for Casinos to allow the patron to leave on their own, in cases involving APing (no criminal wrong doing).
Now as for the zeroing out accounts and cancelling offer...this has become a common practice. Common sense would say that this is some sort of breach of contract or something along those lines, but there is almost always small print which says the casino has the right to cancel the offer at anytime. The casino industry is not the most honorable industry.
Quote: kewljI used to believe this was true as well. That was the ruling in the Wilkinson Case back in the 70's. But in a recent discussion with Attorney Bob Nersesian, he stated, that this is not the law, but it is common policy for Casinos to allow the patron to leave on their own, in cases involving APing (no criminal wrong doing).
Now as for the zeroing out accounts and cancelling offer...this has become a common practice. Common sense would say that this is some sort of breach of contract or something along those lines, but there is almost always small print which says the casino has the right to cancel the offer at anytime. The casino industry is not the most honorable industry.
I speak under correction but I thought what they meant by that is that they have the right to cancel any "offer" as a promotion BUT after the offer has been earned or more specifically after express comps have been "earned" then how can they recind that?
Again, I'm no expert and I'm sure you have much more practical experience than me KJ but it does seem like they are overstepping the letter of the law wehn they take away comps already earned?
Quote: strictlyAPDoes anyone think I'll have a problem at other Vegas properties because of this?
You are not trespassed at any other property. IMO you can feel free to go to any other casino company and only be a little careful about MGM properties.
Quote: TomspurI speak under correction but I thought what they meant by that is that they have the right to cancel any "offer" as a promotion BUT after the offer has been earned or more specifically after express comps have been "earned" then how can they recind that?
Again, I'm no expert and I'm sure you have much more practical experience than me KJ but it does seem like they are overstepping the letter of the law wehn they take away comps already earned?
Comps stands for complimentary, as I am sure everyone knows. That means they are a gift. The way I understand it, they are not really the patrons property until redeemed.
I really have not had any issues of this type, but I know a number of other AP's that have. They have has comp accounts 'zero-ed out' that had thousands of dollars in them. It usually is following a backoff/baring, but some have reported that 'zero-ing' of comps was the first action taken. The first shot fired....so to speak. For this reason, my partner and I try not to let our balances get too big, exchanging points for cash or free play fairly frequently at locations that allow this.
Quote: strictlyAPI'm worried about staying at Cosmo or getting harassed by security when playing if they get info from aria
You won't and they won't.......
Afterwards, if it's not fixed, I would contact gaming, let them know exactly what happened, and ask them to get your express comps back to you. Comp dollars and player points are the property of the player, not the casino. It's no different than them reaching into your safe and taking $2,900.
I'm also guessing there is something else that has happened that caused your account to be flagged for whatever reason and so you didn't get the benefit of the doubt. Do you often pickup and give no play?
Also, the person who said that you are not trespassed at any other property is correct. Each casino is held by a separate holding company. The Mirage has no more right to trespass you from Bellagio than I do. They can ask you to leave at those places, but you can't get a ticket until you've been trespassed by each place individually.
The casinos are getting very aggressive about perceived advantage play from machine players, often stepping on the wrong side of the law. I have no doubt with the measures they have taken some normal people will be stopped, detained, rights violated, and 86'ed.
Quote: tongni
Afterwards, if it's not fixed, I would contact gaming, let them know exactly what happened, and ask them to get your express comps back to you. Comp dollars and player points are the property of the player, not the casino. It's no different than them reaching into your safe and taking $2,900.
If you read sections 24 and 26 of the Mlife terms and conditions, it clearly states that management has the right to cancel all comps and comp offers including express comps at their discretion, without any notice and that by signing up for the program you are agreeing to these terms and conditions.
In the case of comps expressly earned according to published reward program rules, this is also my understanding, and also what I would be inclined to do. I don't resemble any sort of attorney, but the way I got this understanding was privately from the manager of a large poker room that is in the company being discussed here, as he did me the courtesy a few years ago of correcting a mistaken impression of mine by letting me know that Nevada Gaming Enforcement definitely does explicitly regulate gaming comp programs and that he is very much subject to their jurisdiction in awarding and paying them as promised. As it was explained to me by someone whose business it is to know what he's saying about this, they aren't required to have any, but when they do choose to have them he is not free to change the terms after the fact without exposing himself to getting his hand slapped by Gaming. That was solely about earned gaming comp points, not about other kinds of offers or promotions the hotel/resort property may have. Also, what I believe I understand from that educational conversation was solely about the State of Nevada, and I imagine things might be a lot different in some other jurisdictions.Quote: tongniI would contact gaming, let them know exactly what happened, and ask them to get your express comps back to you. Comp dollars and player points are the property of the player, not the casino.
And I am deeply disappointed that there was no "Tiffany & Tempest" tantrum involved; please do better next time you get tossed. What happens in a Vegas vacation really ought to be made photo worthy.
Quote: mickeycrimmThe Fire Ball Mail. Try kicking me out of a joint. I'm the Fireball Mail. Good luck to you my kind friend. I will throw you over the roof.
There ain't nothing to me like Mickey Crimm getting drunker than a pig. I always like my drunk self telling the whole world to kiss my ass, It's the greatest thing since sliced bread.
I'll tell yiou what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna let you punks off easy this time.
Quote: DrawingDeadIn the case of comps expressly earned according to published reward program rules, this is also my understanding, and also what I would be inclined to do. I don't resemble any sort of attorney, but the way I got this understanding was privately from the manager of a large poker room that is in the company being discussed here, as he did me the courtesy a few years ago of correcting a mistaken impression of mine by letting me know that Nevada Gaming Enforcement definitely does explicitly regulate gaming comp programs and that he is very much subject to their jurisdiction in awarding and paying them as promised.
Nevada Gaming is NOT going to side with you. In Nevada the Gaming Commission is a joke. They are basically a rubber stamp, siding with the industry 99.9% of the time. To have any chance of satisfaction, you will have to hire an attorney and go to court, which would be more cost than it's worth.
Johnny Chang (MIT team), 21forme (a professional AP who occasionally posts here) and I believe Munchkin have all talked about having comp balances zeroed out by different casinos.
Earlier in this thread, I had said that I never had an issue with comp balance being zero-ed out, but I did have an issue with a casino, Flamingo, not honoring a comp offer, when I checked in. I had the printout which stated that my stay was comped at $00.00 cost. But at check in they said they would not honor that. I complained up the chain of command with each level telling me, they reserved the right to revoke offers without notice at any time. There is little honor and integrity in this industry.
But back to the OP, strictlyAP's case. I have never heard of a temporary 86ing. My guess would be that the person involved views this as you were trying to scam them, pull one over on them. Normal protocol is probably a permanent 86ing, but because of your strong play history, the person involved wasn't at the level necessary to make that call, so he/she issued a temporary suspension, until someone higher up could review the situation and make the call.
Quote: kewlj
But back to the OP, strictlyAP's case. I have never heard of a temporary 86ing. My guess would be that the person involved views this as you were trying to scam them, pull one over on them. Normal protocol is probably a permanent 86ing, but because of your strong play history, the person involved wasn't at the level necessary to make that call, so he/she issued a temporary suspension, until someone higher up could review the situation and make the call.
I don't know about the west coast but on the east coast, they certainly do have temporary 86'ing. I know of a few people who have suffered from these.
The cases I am familiar with:
24 hour 86'ing: A friend found $20 bucks on the floor which had been laying there for over ten minutes. Security picked him up later and gave him the temp ban.
three month ban: Angry at losing, the man slammed his fist through the e-roulette machine. He agreed to pay for the damages and did so on the spot. Banned for three months.
Six months: similar to above except the man was aggressive about paying the damages. Also I know of a third person who was given an open ended ban of three months minimum but not allowed in until he paid the damages which he paid after four or five months if I'm not mistaken.
three years: use of another player's casino card. I know of several people.
Just because a casino does something doesn't mean it's legal, and you can't write into your T&C the powers to do illegal things legally. While it's true that they can block access to your points, it is not legal, and a call to Gaming should help you get them back. I suggest you read the book Beat the Players by Bob N. He cites a case very similar to this (the player prevails). In most cases the casino knows the law and will back down once the proper people have been notified. There is little downside to filling a complaint, and the first step even if you wanted to go to court would be to file a complaint anyways.
Quote: strictlyAPI'm worried about staying at Cosmo or getting harassed by security when playing if they get info from aria
What do you think they would say? "This guy used the wrong offer, so we asked him to leave. He did so without a fight." ? OK...and then??
Quote: AxelWolfa poker room is the only place I have ever seen suspend someone. Security might ask someone to leave for the night. This is a strange reaction indeed. I bet someone can get an inside answer to this.
maybe there is a little bit more to this? Maybe he was a little irate and that is why security got involved. I know that I would have been throwing a pretty big fit if they took 1k in free play from me and revoked 2900 in comps.
Quote: tongniI disagree. I have had two instances where there was a somewhat serious dispute that was not going to get resolved, and a call to Gaming fixed it. You can call them and ask if they will help you get your player points back, heck, even on this board alone there are multiple ancedotes about people getting comp dollars back from Borgata by calling the DGE, which is about as worthless of a government organization as it gets.
Just because a casino does something doesn't mean it's legal, and you can't write into your T&C the powers to do illegal things legally. While it's true that they can block access to your points, it is not legal, and a call to Gaming should help you get them back. I suggest you read the book Beat the Players by Bob N. He cites a case very similar to this (the player prevails). In most cases the casino knows the law and will back down once the proper people have been notified. There is little downside to filling a complaint, and the first step even if you wanted to go to court would be to file a complaint anyways.
The one issue with this is make sure your comps aren't too old. I waited about 3 weeks before I complained and I was fine. My friend waited about 6 months and the comps were too old. Keep in mind when comp dollars are "frozen" they're still on the clock, at least at borgata.
When such incidents happen at Harrah's, they may say the same.
Regarding entering the casino if you're banned: Don't worry about the facial recognition, that's unlikely to be a problem. It's unlikely that they've taken the time to upload your image into the data base. Casino's simply aren't that efficient. Also, the facial recognition program isn't always that effective. Even then, It's not really an issue unless you're playing a game and they have a reason to check you. Your only real concern is a security guard or a pit person recognizing you. When several security guards come around, it's for a reason. It's so that each one can look at your face and remember you.
Regarding defeating facial recognition: Get a digital camera that has facial recognition software, and you'll discover various tricks. Like taking a pair of glasses and drawing a couple of thin dark lines at the top of one side of the lens, adding a short dark horizontal line below one eye and above another, add facial lines, scars, etc...
Another effective method that I read about is using tiny infrared lights under a baseball cap. This make it impossible to scan the face using infrared cameras.
-Keyser
Quote: KeyserMGM may tell you that you're banned from all MGM properties. But it doesn't mean that you really are.
When such incidents happen at Harrah's, they may say the same.
Regarding entering the casino if you're banned: Don't worry about the facial recognition, that's unlikely to be a problem. It's unlikely that they've taken the time to upload your image into the data base. Casino's simply aren't that efficient. Also, the facial recognition program isn't always that effective. Even then, It's not really an issue unless you're playing a game and they have a reason to check you. Your only real concern is a security guard or a pit person recognizing you. When several security guards come around, it's for a reason. It's so that each one can look at your face and remember you.
Regarding defeating facial recognition: Get a digital camera that has facial recognition software, and you'll discover various tricks. Like taking a pair of glasses and drawing a couple of thin dark lines at the top of one side of the lens, adding a short dark horizontal line below one eye and above another, add facial lines, scars, etc...
Another effective method that I read about is using tiny infrared lights under a baseball cap. This make it impossible to scan the face using infrared cameras.
-Keyser
I do have one friend who has been backed off of a particular game (but not banned from the property). He literally gets followed by 2-3 security personnel every time he enters the property. I have been with him while this has happened. He is still allowed to play there, use his comps, etc.
My point is, they can (somehow) be aware that you have entered the property. I'm not sure if this is due to facial recognition software or some other method, but, whatever they are doing, it works (at least in this case).
Quote: Dicenor33I banned several casinos from taking my money.
LOL! now that's comedy gold!
I had almost the same exact experience minus the security and threats to 86. The problem, was in the past MLIFE would issue offers like " 3 free nights, $200 in free play, at every property" It gave the impression that you could just bounce around from casino to casino getting freeplay so long as you waited the 5 days in between bookings. The caveat was that you could only use the freeplay component of the offer one time, BUT they would let you use the free nights over and over until you stayed at all of the properties detailed in the offer.
About a year ago they changed the wording on these offers to say that the freeplay component could only be used once. Prior to that one would think you could use the freeplay multiple times as the wording implied that each offer was independent of another.
Anyway back to my story. I had already booked NYNY under a freenights and freeplay offer and stayed there. 2 months later I booked the Bellagio under the offer and when I went to the player card desk to ask for my freeplay the lady looked confused. She called a supervisor and he stated that he had to do research and would call me back. The whole thing was weird and I had never experienced that before, normally they just put the freeplay on your account. 2 hours later I got a call from the manager and came back. He explained to me that I already used the freeplay at NYNY. I basically yelled at the guy telling him "SO WHAT!" this is a different offer. He said he would make a one time exception and give me the freeplay, but for the offer the freeplay is only valid once.
TLDR
MLIFE is shady AF for throwing this player out. It was their mistake to begin with by not wording the offer correctly. It should be a warning to any and all players that casinos make up the rules as they go along and don't have to abide by terms and conditions that the normal world abides by. I'm an AP but still an idiot and play slots for fun. Like the OP I'm down lifetime, and to kick someone out over something that was their own doing is IDIOTIC.
Quote: kewljNevada Gaming is NOT going to side with you. In Nevada the Gaming Commission is a joke. They are basically a rubber stamp, siding with the industry 99.9% of the time. To have any chance of satisfaction, you will have to hire an attorney and go to court, which would be more cost than it's worth.
Johnny Chang (MIT team), 21forme (a professional AP who occasionally posts here) and I believe Munchkin have all talked about having comp balances zeroed out by different casinos.
Earlier in this thread, I had said that I never had an issue with comp balance being zero-ed out, but I did have an issue with a casino, Flamingo, not honoring a comp offer, when I checked in. I had the printout which stated that my stay was comped at $00.00 cost. But at check in they said they would not honor that. I complained up the chain of command with each level telling me, they reserved the right to revoke offers without notice at any time. There is little honor and integrity in this industry.
I was 86ed fram harrahs (over the phone nothing in writing) for complaining and posting pictures of bedbugs in my room on their facebook page.
Long stoey short buy stock in mgm and unless you had a criminal charge as a part owner of the company they can not remove you. You have a right to support and check on your investment in places the general public are allowed. Does not give you rights to restricted areas etc
They do not have to alloe you back into a rewards program
