100xOdds
100xOdds
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May 10th, 2014 at 7:26:32 AM permalink
I know those poker card shufflers have card recognition.
you can press a button and it'll re-arrange a deck back to Ace to King with every suit separated, as if it was a brand new deck you bought at a store.

shuffling wise, does it use card recognition as part of it's algorithm?
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EdCollins
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May 10th, 2014 at 8:13:57 AM permalink
I have no idea but I would be very, very surprised if it did.

What would the algorithm be? For example, after stepping through its shuffling routine, if it then checked the cards and found x number of hearts together in a row, would it then shuffle the cards again just to mix these x cards up? But x hearts in a row will happen from time to time, of course, no matter how large x is.

Likewise if it found all four kings in a row. That's going to happen from time to time.

If the shuffling algorithm itself is a good one, and I suspect that it is, there would be no need to inspect the cards during or after the shuffle.

But again, I have no idea.
Ibeatyouraces
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May 10th, 2014 at 8:21:23 AM permalink
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
EdCollins
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May 10th, 2014 at 8:29:31 AM permalink
Randomly placing cards into slots IS shuffling.

"Shuffling" is a procedure used to randomize a deck of playing cards. In this case, that procedure is to randomly place them in slots.
Ibeatyouraces
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May 10th, 2014 at 8:59:34 AM permalink
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kubikulann
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May 10th, 2014 at 11:07:26 AM permalink
A pit boss once explained that the machine computes (electronically) a random order, then places the cards in the slots in accordance.

Now, of course, maybe he didn't know s**t...
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Paigowdan
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May 10th, 2014 at 11:24:46 AM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

I know those poker card shufflers have card recognition.
you can press a button and it'll re-arrange a deck back to Ace to King with every suit separated, as if it was a brand new deck you bought at a store.

shuffling wise, does it use card recognition as part of it's algorithm?


No, they do not. In shuffling mode, they are set up to shuffle blindly, randomly, and honestly; in verification mode, they have the red and white "error" and "ready" lights flash rapidly, to signal that reading/deck verification is active, and that a deck is getting sorted.

On the new I-deal shufflers, while the shuffle itself is random and blind, it reads the packets on the way out, to know who has what hand, to verify a big win claim, and to prevent card mucking. But the shuffle part is 100% blind, no influence.

It has to be this way under gaming regs.
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michael99000
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May 10th, 2014 at 11:30:04 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

No, they do not. In shuffling mode, they are set up to shuffle blindly, randomly, and honestly; in verification mode, they have the red and white "error" and "ready" lights flash rapidly, to signal that reading/deck verification is active, and that a deck is getting sorted.

On the new I-deal shufflers, while the shuffle itself is random and blind, it reads the packets on the way out, to know who has what hand, to verify a big win claim, and to prevent card mucking. But the shuffle part is 100% blind, no influence.

It has to be this way under gaming regs.



So if I'm playing 3 card poker and I accidentally muck my mini royal, someone is notified of it and I'm given the cards back to re-play the hand ?
Paigowdan
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May 10th, 2014 at 11:39:01 AM permalink
Quote: michael99000

Quote: Paigowdan

No, they do not. In shuffling mode, they are set up to shuffle blindly, randomly, and honestly; in verification mode, they have the red and white "error" and "ready" lights flash rapidly, to signal that reading/deck verification is active, and that a deck is getting sorted.

On the new I-deal shufflers, while the shuffle itself is random and blind, it reads the packets on the way out, to know who has what hand, to verify a big win claim, and to prevent card mucking. But the shuffle part is 100% blind, no influence.

It has to be this way under gaming regs.



So if I'm playing 3 card poker and I accidentally muck my mini royal, someone is notified of it and I'm given the cards back to re-play the hand ?


No, if you fold your hand, it gets discarded as your game-play decision. If you play it, and it checks out, you get paid. The I-deal machine prevents people from pulling a mini-royal from out of their shirt sleeves.
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geoff
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May 10th, 2014 at 12:32:43 PM permalink
For those curious how the shuffling mechanism works what the machine does is assign each card in the deck a number in order 1-52 based on where it currently is (top is 1). The machine then runs a randomization algorithm that gives a random order for 52 cards. So it would have 35, 21, 37, 52, 11 and so on for every card in the machine. It then moves each slot from where it started to where it should be in the randomized version.
Lemieux66
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May 10th, 2014 at 1:36:48 PM permalink
Obviously it's rigged because I never get a hand.
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ThatDonGuy
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May 10th, 2014 at 4:44:15 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

No, they do not. In shuffling mode, they are set up to shuffle blindly, randomly, and honestly; in verification mode, they have the red and white "error" and "ready" lights flash rapidly, to signal that reading/deck verification is active, and that a deck is getting sorted.

On the new I-deal shufflers, while the shuffle itself is random and blind, it reads the packets on the way out, to know who has what hand, to verify a big win claim, and to prevent card mucking. But the shuffle part is 100% blind, no influence.

It has to be this way under gaming regs.


You would think so, but I searched the Nevada Gaming Regulations for "shuffle", "random", and even "cards", and I can't find it - except that a gaming machine that simulates cards has to be random.
Paigowdan
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May 10th, 2014 at 4:50:39 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

Quote: Paigowdan

No, they do not. In shuffling mode, they are set up to shuffle blindly, randomly, and honestly; in verification mode, they have the red and white "error" and "ready" lights flash rapidly, to signal that reading/deck verification is active, and that a deck is getting sorted.

On the new I-deal shufflers, while the shuffle itself is random and blind, it reads the packets on the way out, to know who has what hand, to verify a big win claim, and to prevent card mucking. But the shuffle part is 100% blind, no influence.

It has to be this way under gaming regs.


You would think so, but I searched the Nevada Gaming Regulations for "shuffle", "random", and even "cards", and I can't find it - except that a gaming machine that simulates cards has to be random.



My understanding is that shufflers must shuffle absolutely randomly - that you cannot knowingly order or "stack" the cards being shuffled in any meaningful way, and prove it so, like Video Poker machines.
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DJTeddyBear
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May 10th, 2014 at 5:12:22 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

So then washing the cards is shuffling to?

Technically, in a "randomization" sense of the word, yes, washing is a form of shuffling.

What most people think of as a "shuffle", is actually a "riffle", and like washing, is only one part of the shuffle processes.

In a poker room (since that's what we're talking about), dealers are taught that a hand shuffle is a specific method:

1: wash.
2: riffle.
3: riffle.
4: stripe (That's where they take a few off the top, then a few more, then a few more. Essentially a multiple cut).
5: riffle.
6: cut.

Some poker rooms, the stripe is after the first riffle.

Other games can have differing but similar shuffle procedures.

Also note that since the discards / muck pile tends to stay kinda messy, the mere act of gathering the cards and squaring them up is often considered a wash. Occasionally a player will ask for the cards to be washed, and then the dealer will take a few more seconds and do a more elaborate washing by spreading and mixing the cards before gathering and squaring.
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Paigowdan
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May 10th, 2014 at 5:20:45 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Technically, in a "randomization" sense of the word, yes, washing is a form of shuffling.

What most people think of as a "shuffle", is actually a "riffle", and like washing, is only one part of the shuffle processes.

In a poker room (since that's what we're talking about), dealers are taught that a hand shuffle is a specific method:

1: wash.
2: riffle.
3: riffle.
4: stripe (That's where they take a few off the top, then a few more, then a few more. Essentially a multiple cut).
5: riffle.
6: cut.

Some poker rooms, the stripe is after the first riffle.

Other games can have differing but similar shuffle procedures.


It's strip, like at a Gentleman's club, and not stripe, like on a flag. I love it.

Quote: DJTB

Also note that since the discards / muck pile tends to stay kinda messy, the mere act of gathering the cards and squaring them up is often considered a wash. Occasionally a player will ask for the cards to be washed, and then the dealer will take a few more seconds and do a more elaborate washing by spreading and mixing the cards before gathering and squaring.


Players cannot ask a dealer to add a wash; a floorman can allow it. Washes are often done as procedure after a big and rare hand in a game. (Quads, a Royal, etc.)
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GWAE
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May 10th, 2014 at 5:22:50 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

It's strip, like at a Gentleman's club, and not stripe, like on a flag. I love it.


Players cannot ask a dealer to add a wash; a floorman can allow it. Washes are often done as procedure after a big and rare hand in a game. (Quads, a Royal, etc.)



this is a YMMV, my local will wash anytime someone asks. There are certain players that are annoying and will ask for a wash every few hands if they don't win.
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ThatDonGuy
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May 10th, 2014 at 6:28:00 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

My understanding is that shufflers must shuffle absolutely randomly - that you cannot knowingly order or "stack" the cards being shuffled in any meaningful way, and prove it so, like Video Poker machines.


Well, there is this:

"It is unlawful for any person, whether the person is an owner or employee of or a player in an establishment, to cheat at any gambling game."

However, it's not a "gaming regulation"; it's Nevada Revised Statute 465.083. (There's no mention of "loading dice" in the Gaming Regulations either, but that doesn't make it legal!) Penalty is a fine up to $10,000 and/or 1-6 years in prison, although the prison sentence is mandatory for a second offense.
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