Sonuvabish
Sonuvabish
Joined: Feb 5, 2014
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April 29th, 2014 at 10:09:09 AM permalink
Quote: kewlj

I wonder if this applies to casinos as well? Fremont Casino (downtown) has a big advertisement on the side of the building advertising jackpots of $1199! Clearly this is about avoiding that $1200 threshold that requires a hand pay and paperwork. Isn't that the definition of structuring?



No, this has absolutely nothing to do with structuring. That's the threshold for generating a tax form on a jackpot payout, not a transaction form. Structuring laws are designed to hinder laundering, drug trafficking, and terrorism...not collect taxes. Further, the amount is $10,000 not $1200. A person cannot structure his jackpot wns, and viewing a casino as structuring their payouts is a misinterpretation of the law. This advertisement suggests to the player that the casino will not inform the government of the jackpot. This should be irrelevant since the player is obligated to inform the government of any win.
1arrowheaddr
1arrowheaddr
Joined: Jun 20, 2012
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April 29th, 2014 at 11:06:02 AM permalink
Advertising a $1199 jackpot is clearly an attempt to circumvent W-2 laws. I assume the IRS doesn't care because it has been around for years.
1arrowheaddr
1arrowheaddr
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April 29th, 2014 at 11:08:59 AM permalink
Quote: arcticfun



However, there is a very clear notice accompanying the statement that the casino cannot guarantee its accuracy, that it is up to me, the player, to report accurately to the IRS, and that the statement itself can't be used other than for informational purposes.



The casino is more interested in recording your "chips off the table" amount than buy-in amounts. Pit bosses have no clue how much people buy-in for, unless of course you only buy-in once. I would guess that for table players 80% of win/loss statements underestimate player losses.
1arrowheaddr
1arrowheaddr
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April 29th, 2014 at 11:10:41 AM permalink
Quote: Sonuvabish

No, this has absolutely nothing to do with structuring. That's the threshold for generating a tax form on a jackpot payout, not a transaction form. Structuring laws are designed to hinder laundering, drug trafficking, and terrorism...not collect taxes. Further, the amount is $10,000 not $1200. A person cannot structure his jackpot wns, and viewing a casino as structuring their payouts is a misinterpretation of the law. This advertisement suggests to the player that the casino will not inform the government of the jackpot. This should be irrelevant since the player is obligated to inform the government of any win.



If this is the case why are employers required to report employee income to the IRS? All income is required to be reported by individuals so there is no need for businesses to report.
Sonuvabish
Sonuvabish
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April 29th, 2014 at 12:04:08 PM permalink
Quote: 1arrowheaddr

If this is the case why are employers required to report employee income to the IRS? All income is required to be reported by individuals so there is no need for businesses to report.



To pay employment taxes. And since employees typically make more than $1200 a year, I do not see why this is remotely analogous. If a business can attract persons to independently work for them for $599, the business need not report the person's information. These are completely different laws. The business does not go to jail for failure to comply, it pays a fine. There is no need to report because the law says so; if you still think this is structuring, you are beyond reason.
1arrowheaddr
1arrowheaddr
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April 29th, 2014 at 1:24:46 PM permalink
Quote: Sonuvabish

To pay employment taxes. And since employees typically make more than $1200 a year, I do not see why this is remotely analogous. If a business can attract persons to independently work for them for $599, the business need not report the person's information. These are completely different laws. The business does not go to jail for failure to comply, it pays a fine. There is no need to report because the law says so; if you still think this is structuring, you are beyond reason.



If the casino is advertising jackpots of $1199, it is an effort by the casino to AT LEAST attempt to market to people who are interested in avoiding W-2's/reporting requirements. How is it not? I would liken advertising jackpots of $1199 to advertising independent contractor jobs that terminate once a contractor has earned $599. I think the IRS would be very interested in a business that openly advertises a this arrangement. I don't think IRS cares about the $1199 thing because finding all wage income is much more central to the standard operating procedure of the IRS than penalizing recreational gamblers that probably lose money gambling anyway.
Sonuvabish
Sonuvabish
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April 29th, 2014 at 2:37:17 PM permalink
Quote: 1arrowheaddr

If the casino is advertising jackpots of $1199, it is an effort by the casino to AT LEAST attempt to market to people who are interested in avoiding W-2's/reporting requirements.



Yes

Quote: 1arrowheaddr

I would liken advertising jackpots of $1199 to advertising independent contractor jobs that terminate once a contractor has earned $599. I think the IRS would be very interested in a business that openly advertises a this arrangement.



No one wants to pay taxes on slot winnings, there is always buzz about the preference of hitting for $1100 over $1200 at the casino. No one is looking for a temporary job that terminates after earning $599, that is absurd.

Quote: 1arrowheaddr

I think the IRS would be very interested in a business that openly advertises a this arrangement.



So do I because a business is restricted in the amount of money it can spend to hire in help in this manner, and a large company could certainly not employ it's entire workforce in this manner legally, nor in reality.

Quote: 1arrowheaddr

I don't think IRS cares about the $1199 thing because finding all wage income is much more central to the standard operating procedure of the IRS than penalizing recreational gamblers that probably lose money gambling anyway.



They make no categorical distinctions between income, only the layman does. Going after gamblers is economically inefficient because they generally owe less than the cost of pursuing them, and an aggressive stance would decrease revenues generated from casinos. They don't care because it is not illegal. Structuring is not analogous to attempted tax evasion, which seems to be the theme. There is no such thing as attempted tax evasion because the attempt is an element of the completed crime itself and not an inchoate offense. Structuring is not tax evasion.
arcticfun
arcticfun
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May 7th, 2014 at 8:56:21 AM permalink
Did y'all know that some states, including MA and CT, don't allow gambling losses as deductions? That means if you have 50k in winning sessions, and 50k in losing sessions for a net of 0 in gambling income, your tax liability to the state is whatever the tax rate is APPLIED TO THE 50K IN WINNINGS?!!!! And for most people who usually lose money gambling, you are still taxed on every winning session even if you lost overall. This is unlike the federal tax return, where deductions up to the full amount of gambling winnings are allowed.
AcesAndEights
AcesAndEights
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May 7th, 2014 at 10:33:04 AM permalink
Quote: arcticfun

Did y'all know that some states, including MA and CT, don't allow gambling losses as deductions? That means if you have 50k in winning sessions, and 50k in losing sessions for a net of 0 in gambling income, your tax liability to the state is whatever the tax rate is APPLIED TO THE 50K IN WINNINGS?!!!! And for most people who usually lose money gambling, you are still taxed on every winning session even if you lost overall. This is unlike the federal tax return, where deductions up to the full amount of gambling winnings are allowed.


Yeah it's dumb. If I end up moving to MA not sure how I will deal with this.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
iamthepush
iamthepush
Joined: May 26, 2010
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May 7th, 2014 at 11:07:00 AM permalink
here is my 2 cents on how i think it works.

I was at the wynn a few years ago with a couple of buds. they were in the book watching a BB game. I would buy in at a BJ game for $1,000 -$2,000 play a few hands until I was up (a couple of times I busted) cash out at cage. Go watch the game for a few mins. Rinse and repeat. Everytime I bought in it was with my players card. The last time I tried to buy in (w/my card), pit boss told me if i did he was going to have fill out some form (SAR i think) and didn't really feell like it, so he told me to scram and next time I buy in do it with out using my card.

I think it has to do when you are buying in, not cashing out. My wife works at a jewelry store and if someone comes in and buys >$10k of jewelry with cash they have to fill out one of those forms.

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