kjberry
• Posts: 1
Joined: Mar 31, 2014
March 31st, 2014 at 2:50:45 PM permalink

Why the first two Monte Carlo BJ tables, which have all the same parameters, other than min/max bets have such a wide discrepancy in House Edge (0.0% vs. 0.5%)
UCivan
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Joined: Sep 3, 2011
March 31st, 2014 at 4:03:20 PM permalink
The updated pages shows the House Edges are all lower than 1%. On the other hand, we have head many time that statistically
(Casino) Hold = 10 * House Edge. So, using the formula, the Hold should be about 5%, or less 10%. Now, you look at the numbers posted on Gaming Commission's web sites, BJ's holds are 15-20+%. Does this mean "Hold = 10* HE" is not valid for the most popular game of blackjack?
rdw4potus
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March 31st, 2014 at 4:10:46 PM permalink
Quote: kjberry

https://wizardofvegas.com/guides/blackjack-survey/?sort=casino&dir=asc

Why the first two Monte Carlo BJ tables, which have all the same parameters, other than min/max bets have such a wide discrepancy in House Edge (0.0% vs. 0.5%)

0.0% is a typo.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
1BB
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Joined: Oct 10, 2011
March 31st, 2014 at 4:12:13 PM permalink
Quote: kjberry

https://wizardofvegas.com/guides/blackjack-survey/?sort=casino&dir=asc

Why the first two Monte Carlo BJ tables, which have all the same parameters, other than min/max bets have such a wide discrepancy in House Edge (0.0% vs. 0.5%)

I'm guessing typo. If not, Vegas here I come!
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
beachbumbabs
• Posts: 14268
Joined: May 21, 2013
March 31st, 2014 at 5:07:37 PM permalink
Quote: UCivan

The updated pages shows the House Edges are all lower than 1%. On the other hand, we have head many time that statistically
(Casino) Hold = 10 * House Edge. So, using the formula, the Hold should be about 5%, or less 10%. Now, you look at the numbers posted on Gaming Commission's web sites, BJ's holds are 15-20+%. Does this mean "Hold = 10* HE" is not valid for the most popular game of blackjack?

The HE is calculated using optimum strategy and assumes perfect play. Most people aren't capable of perfect play, so the HE is effectively larger for them. By your calculation, the HE would be 1.5% to 2.0% for that hold. To me, that seems likely, especially with all the 6:5 Blackjack now, where the HE is around 1.5% depending on the other rules.

If you look at the WoO BJ Calculator you can see a difference between optimum and realistic which reflects some of what I'm suggesting. If you change the default BJ pays 3.2 to 6.5, you'll see it go up about 1.4% just with that change. I could be wrong, but I think that's what you're seeing with the GC's website reports.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Mission146
• Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
March 31st, 2014 at 5:34:48 PM permalink
In addition to that, those reports probably count side bets with Blackjack, basically just overall table hold, so that also must be taken into consideration.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
UCivan
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Joined: Sep 3, 2011
March 31st, 2014 at 6:21:02 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

If you change the default BJ pays 3.2 to 6.5, you'll see it go up about 1.4% just with that change. I could be wrong, but I think that's what you're seeing with the GC's website reports.

Thanks, Babs, when did 6 to 5 start in Vegas?
Tomspur
• Posts: 2019
Joined: Jul 12, 2013
March 31st, 2014 at 6:34:12 PM permalink
Quote: UCivan

The updated pages shows the House Edges are all lower than 1%. On the other hand, we have head many time that statistically
(Casino) Hold = 10 * House Edge. So, using the formula, the Hold should be about 5%, or less 10%. Now, you look at the numbers posted on Gaming Commission's web sites, BJ's holds are 15-20+%. Does this mean "Hold = 10* HE" is not valid for the most popular game of blackjack?

Which jurisdiction holds 15-20% PLUS on blackjack?????
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
UCivan
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March 31st, 2014 at 7:02:45 PM permalink
beachbumbabs
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Joined: May 21, 2013
March 31st, 2014 at 7:03:52 PM permalink
Quote: UCivan

Thanks, Babs, when did 6 to 5 start in Vegas?

I really can't answer that question. In an isolated report, I can say in September Harrah's LV had 6:5 on all their party pit and low-limit tables, so sometime before that. The \$25 table in the Asian pit was 3:2. But the guys here who play a lot of Vegas blackjack, like kewlj, could probably tell you a lot more.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Tomspur
• Posts: 2019
Joined: Jul 12, 2013
March 31st, 2014 at 7:09:14 PM permalink
Quote: UCivan

If you look at the statewide gaming figures you will notice the following:

Number of locations = 152
Number of units = 2739
Hold % = 10.87%

There are some small areas with barely 30 tables which hold between 18 and 22% but you have to look at NV as a whole to get an accurate picture. SOme of those properties have drops per day of a few \$100.......

No way any large casino district holds 15 - 20% PLUS on blackjack......In the USA (just to qualify)
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
• Posts: 786
Joined: Feb 21, 2012
March 31st, 2014 at 7:16:26 PM permalink
When the NV gaming reports say a blackjack table held 15-20% that means 15-20% of the cash dropped was held. It is not the edge on the game.

Let's say a casino dropped \$10k at a table and paid out \$8,500 while the casino made \$1,500, it held 15%. It has nothing to do with the actual edge on the game. There is no other way to compute house advantage for table games in terms of regulatory reporting.
Tomspur
• Posts: 2019
Joined: Jul 12, 2013
March 31st, 2014 at 7:18:29 PM permalink

When the NV gaming reports say a blackjack table held 15-20% that means 15-20% of the cash dropped was held. It is not the edge on the game.

Let's say a casino dropped \$10k at a table and paid out \$8,500 while the casino made \$1,500, it held 15%. It has nothing to do with the actual edge on the game. There is no other way to compute house advantage for table games.

We are certainly not talking about HE, we are talking about hold% which is exactly as you mention.

I hope most people on this site knows the difference, which I'm sure they do :)
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
Venthus
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Joined: Dec 10, 2012
March 31st, 2014 at 7:41:27 PM permalink
Quote: UCivan

Huh. Interesting report. I notice that Bingo has, by far, the smallest hold in most cases, including a few periods/places where it was negative.
Tomspur
• Posts: 2019
Joined: Jul 12, 2013
March 31st, 2014 at 9:08:46 PM permalink
Quote: Venthus

Quote: UCivan

Huh. Interesting report. I notice that Bingo has, by far, the smallest hold in most cases, including a few periods/places where it was negative.

I would assume it is because the drops are relatively low (comparatively speaking) and there are some wild swings with regards to jackpots and other promotional payouts?

But I know almost zero about Bingo so I would be guessing :)
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
beachbumbabs
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April 1st, 2014 at 8:56:01 AM permalink