Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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May 13th, 2013 at 2:02:32 AM permalink
Quote: DeMango

That hole carder could also be described as a businessman, extracting wealth from the gaming industry!



There is a lot to it being just "point of view" that is justified. In terms of a hole carder being a businessman, no, I disagree with that, because the hole carder adds no real value for the money extracted. The casino does, by providing a forum for gambling, and for those who enjoy gambling. The hole-carder is not gambling, he's doing something different.
(One can argue that a burglar extracts wealth from the medical profession by virtue of burglarizing a doctor's home, and that is indeed righteous and proper. )

So, the question here is: "What does a hole-carder, edge sorter, or card counter add to the casino, or to the experience of the recreational player at the casino?"
The answer is little, aside from increasing costs for everyone. He's just out to line his pockets, without providing a true service, really.
Do we go to the casino to have fun, or do we seriously believe we can go there to extract wealth.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
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May 13th, 2013 at 4:12:01 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Yes, this is true. Advantage Players are often very serious, dedicated, and relentless, while casino workers are more of a "regular worker" type. It's a little bit like comparing a Green Beret to someone in the National Guard.



A very little bit. Its more like comparing the motivated kids in school who got scholarships to the kids who smoked pot behind the gym and lifes dream was to make it to tenth grade so they could drop out and get factory jobs. Casino workers are dedicated to looking at their watches and making it to the next break. I,m not joking dan, and you know its true.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
Joined: Aug 1, 2011
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May 13th, 2013 at 6:22:55 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

My pleasure. WizardofOdds.com was/is revolutionary; it really advanced the state of gaming for both the players and the operators.




I wasn't particularly talking about an endeavor being lucrative, and it is indeed for at least for some. I was talking about a career.
It's like when a mother discusses and accounts for her children's occupations at a relative's cocktail party:
"Jim...is a Neurologist at Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center in New York."
"Beth...is an aviation engineer with General Electric."
"Eileen....is in early childhood education."
"Frank....hole cards Mississippi Stud at West Coast Casinos...."

I was looking at this business at a distance from this business.

Don`t tell my mom I`m a holecarder, she thinks I`m a piano player in a whorehouse.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
Ahigh
Ahigh
Joined: May 19, 2010
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May 13th, 2013 at 6:31:52 AM permalink
I'm not sure, but a similar train of thought could be used to blame the creators of the games for losing money as a result of playing the games.

Basically, the vast majority of people who play games expect and fulfill those expectations to lose money.

On Friday, Kelly and I met up with friends from our high school. This friend was an avid BJ player, and I had to explain that I only played craps and I didn't "know anything" about blackjack. When I assumed she knew more and started asking questions, she had no idea about the difference between 3:2 and 6:5 blackjack.

This difference has nothing to do with AP and everything to do with those who design the games. It took at least one designer to come up with 6:5 blackjack.

Continuous shuffling seems like it could deal with AP. I'm no expert, but pointing fingers at AP as to why people are getting "ripped off" is a pretty biased way to look at the "problem" of people getting ripped off in Vegas.

When people lose their money, they often are fully prepared to lose their money as a result of not caring about the process of it.

They come, they lose, they leave.

The real problem is that we are shifting more towards a customer who wants to be entertained and does not expect to have a financial gain as a result of risking their money. IE: people are just not that smart about gambling, and they just don't care to be either!

It's easy to live here in Vegas and become detached from the reality of how ignorant the average American is about how to get the best deal when gambling!

Most people who don't live here and come and visit real quick are just not that knowledgeable about what they are doing. Slot machines being popular is a just one facet of this observation that I am pointing out here. Not knowing and still enjoying the process of gambling (rather than a positive result at the end) is just sort of how things are right now.

I think in the early days, it was more about the potential to win than the flashing lights and entertainment aspects.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
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May 13th, 2013 at 6:54:32 AM permalink
What I took away from this interview is what I always suspected (RECONFIRMED, slaps own hand) , all the way back to the days of AOL and skip's page.The great, Killing the golden goose thread started after a few AP employees loved to blab about good plays openly in great detail. IE: All American VP 103%. The Casino management may be lurking and learning argument against TMI was laughed at (not by me). So next time before posting about some potential AP remember Casino management is learning/watching/reading . Lose lips sink ships.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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May 13th, 2013 at 7:31:18 AM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

I'm not sure, but a similar train of thought could be used to blame the creators of the games for losing money as a result of playing the games.

Basically, the vast majority of people who play games expect and fulfill those expectations to lose money.

On Friday, Kelly and I met up with friends from our high school. This friend was an avid BJ player, and I had to explain that I only played craps and I didn't "know anything" about blackjack. When I assumed she knew more and started asking questions, she had no idea about the difference between 3:2 and 6:5 blackjack.

This difference has nothing to do with AP and everything to do with those who design the games. It took at least one designer to come up with 6:5 blackjack.


The changes in the "base game" of Blackjack: 6:5, H17/S17, DOA - all these things are tinkered with by local casino management. Public domain games are not changed by manufacturers, they are changed by casino operators.

Quote: Ahigh

Continuous shuffling seems like it could deal with AP. I'm no expert, but pointing fingers at AP as to why people are getting "ripped off" is a pretty biased way to look at the "problem" of people getting ripped off in Vegas.


No it isn't. Customers pay for loss prevention, and the cost of doing business goes only up. Granted, businesses can still be greedy, but it is harder to be greedy with aggressive competition. Assuming a business is close to its profit margin, loss prevention costs drive up customer prices (house edges/bad rules/less comps). And yes, a business can run with this condition, but not efficiently.

Quote: Ahigh

When people lose their money, they often are fully prepared to lose their money as a result of not caring about the process of it.


That's a different element here: when people do not care about the process, they're setting themselves up to lose. It is stacking the deck against oneself, as opposed to stacking the deck for oneself.

Quote: Ahigh

The real problem is that we are shifting more towards a customer who wants to be entertained and does not expect to have a financial gain as a result of risking their money. IE: people are just not that smart about gambling, and they just don't care to be either!


If you're saying gamblers are chumps, I'll disagree. They've wisened up a great deal. I don't think they have a 100% expectation of loss, nor a 100% expectation of a win. When they approach a table, it is more of a "let's see what happens. I may win." There is some expectation or potential for a win.

Quote: Ahigh

It's easy to live here in Vegas and become detached from the reality of how ignorant the average American is about how to get the best deal when gambling!

Most people who don't live here and come and visit real quick are just not that knowledgeable about what they are doing. Slot machines being popular is a just one facet of this observation that I am pointing out here. Not knowing and still enjoying the process of gambling (rather than a positive result at the end) is just sort of how things are right now.


For some. I do believe that those who "know that they don't know" how to gamble would go to a show, or play Roulette or reel slots, where where optimal strategy is "press a button for next spin" or "pick a number."

Quote: Ahigh

I think in the early days, it was more about the potential to win than the flashing lights and entertainment aspects.


I think it still is.

I think that many non-gamblers come to Vegas for the non-gambling activities now (conventions, shows, amenities, nightlife), and that many locals are non-gamblers or rare gamblers.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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May 13th, 2013 at 7:36:56 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

What I took away from this interview is what I always suspected (RECONFIRMED, slaps own hand) , all the way back to the days of AOL and skip's page.The great, Killing the golden goose thread started after a few AP employees loved to blab about good plays openly in great detail. IE: All American VP 103%. The Casino management may be lurking and learning argument against TMI was laughed at (not by me). So next time before posting about some potential AP remember Casino management is learning/watching/reading . Lose lips sink ships.



There is a saying in the information age: Information yearns to be free. Even if AP techniques were masked, and they are not fully, you would still only have a window of opportunity, that the golden goose has a life expectancy.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
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May 13th, 2013 at 9:54:35 AM permalink
Dan, During the 90's every month something new came along worth a minimum of a easy 10k that's not including the normal day to day AP, Banking, progressives, Bounce back, drawings, etc. Why do you think such a big decline?
I Blame the following for the decline in AP from 1988-2004
1) the internet: starting with Skip Hughes page I think it morphed into vpFREE
2)Double Agents,defectors, consultants
3) big corporations buying up multiple casinos and learning from mistakes
4) some Advantage players themselves doing dumb things IE: creating attention to everything things like playing 2 VP machines @ once, Reading books during AP, to cheap for cover play or tipping.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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May 13th, 2013 at 11:30:04 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Dan, During the 90's every month something new came along worth a minimum of a easy 10k that's not including the normal day to day AP, Banking, progressives, Bounce back, drawings, etc. Why do you think such a big decline?


In a word, evolution. Casinos, and their management, evolve. As stated, casinos may not be as fast and as strong as dedicated AP players or teams, but progress is being made. It is all simply an adapt or die process. Big openings (and losses) cannot be sustained, and small opening and losses get closed up, cleaned up, if for efficiencies alone. And it is actually the old-school manager who felt that a little hole-carding, a little counting down, a little edge sorting is okay, and is going to happen in a "what can ya do" sense, - when not caught and back-roomed. (Big losses caused a visit to the desert in the old days.)
A lot of the game protection focus is now moving away from reactive measures (surveillance, back-offs, flat-betting), which are expensive, poor for public relations, and are an after-the-fact, or an "after-being-hit" reaction. Indeed, the usage of "surveillance plus back offs" as a solution openly indicate that you have a problem, a highly fraud-able game or bad game parameters.

Quote: AxelWolf

I Blame the following for the decline in AP from 1988-2004
1) the internet: starting with Skip Hughes page I think it morphed into vpFREE


The Internet has information for "any and all sides."

Quote: AxelWolf

2)Double Agents,defectors, consultants


Yup. Even the language smacks of espionage: Double Agents, defectors....some on the other side might call defectors "reformed players."

Quote: AxelWolf

3) big corporations buying up multiple casinos and learning from mistakes


Agree. When a casino operator has a formal department for table games policies and protections, it gets results. Plus, an operator consisting of many casinos will have the resources for this effort, whereas a stand-alone private casino might not.

Quote: AxelWolf

4) some Advantage players themselves doing dumb things IE: creating attention to everything things like playing 2 VP machines @ once, Reading books during AP, to cheap for cover play or tipping.


People give themselves away.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
teddys
teddys
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
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May 16th, 2013 at 8:15:01 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

My pleasure. WizardofOdds.com was/is revolutionary; it really advanced the state of gaming for both the players and the operators.




I wasn't particularly talking about an endeavor being lucrative, and it is indeed for at least for some. I was talking about a career.
It's like when a mother discusses and accounts for her children's occupations at a relative's cocktail party:
"Jim...is a Neurologist at Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center in New York."
"Beth...is an aviation engineer with General Electric."
"Eileen....is in early childhood education."
"Frank....hole cards Mississippi Stud at West Coast Casinos...."

I was looking at this business at a distance from this business.

Who cares what your mom says at a cocktail party? Most people don't care, unless you've got weird guilt issues.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4

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