Not Good News For Vegas
Thread Rating:
February 13th, 2013 at 9:04:37 PM
permalink
Two unrelated things don't bode well for the economic
recovery of Vegas. First, the big ferris wheel project,
Skyvue, is off the table due to lack of funding. And
the reopening of the Sahara is also not going to happen,
no funding there also.
This shows us Vegas is still majorly on the ropes. Just a
few years ago both these projects would have been an
unquestioned done deal. Now they can't find financial
support anywhere in the world. Its really pretty amazing,
and very depressing.
A few weeks ago all the construction companies working
on Skyvue filed suits to get paid. Where have we heard
this before..
http://www.lvrj.com/news/skyvue-s-financial-troubles-mount-187065001.html
recovery of Vegas. First, the big ferris wheel project,
Skyvue, is off the table due to lack of funding. And
the reopening of the Sahara is also not going to happen,
no funding there also.
This shows us Vegas is still majorly on the ropes. Just a
few years ago both these projects would have been an
unquestioned done deal. Now they can't find financial
support anywhere in the world. Its really pretty amazing,
and very depressing.
A few weeks ago all the construction companies working
on Skyvue filed suits to get paid. Where have we heard
this before..
http://www.lvrj.com/news/skyvue-s-financial-troubles-mount-187065001.html
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
February 13th, 2013 at 9:28:13 PM
permalink
Vegas has too many premium (3 star plus) properties as-is. One major property needs to close and all of the others will be more viable. Unfortunately the are basically all owned by the same 3 companies and they can all take the heat for a long time.
February 13th, 2013 at 10:47:10 PM
permalink
Maybe the suckers have finally wised up.
"What, me worry?"
February 13th, 2013 at 11:25:41 PM
permalink
Vegas is not immune to overbuilding and contraction cycles. When business is good everyone overbuilds. then the necessary contractions come. In the next cycle theyll overbuild again.
Unless youre name is Wynn, Adelson, or you are a major shareholder, does it make a difference to you?
Personally I like that Vegas is struggling a bit. It might mean better offers to get me to play there.
When business is good they won't bother courting me.
Unless youre name is Wynn, Adelson, or you are a major shareholder, does it make a difference to you?
Personally I like that Vegas is struggling a bit. It might mean better offers to get me to play there.
When business is good they won't bother courting me.
February 13th, 2013 at 11:53:41 PM
permalink
Don't bad economic times in Las Vegas cause misery and disgruntlment to casino dealers?
Their tips go down, they're let go, have hours cut; all because of tough times.
So I guess it makes a difference, if not to us then to them.
Their tips go down, they're let go, have hours cut; all because of tough times.
So I guess it makes a difference, if not to us then to them.
"What, me worry?"
February 14th, 2013 at 12:16:27 AM
permalink
So what? Ain't no MBA type around who cares about the dealers.Quote: MrVDon't bad economic times in Las Vegas cause misery to casino dealers?
Management bonuses, stock prices, ... dealers ain't nothin' but bell hops what ain't got a union!
February 14th, 2013 at 2:37:46 AM
permalink
Quote: MrVMaybe the suckers have finally wised up.
I get better video poker at Harrah's Rincon in San Diego than I do at Caesars Palace. Plus Rincon gives me bounce back, free play, and Total Rewards comp multipliers that I don't get in Vegas but I can use in Vegas, as well as the same Great Gift Wrap Up points.
The only reason for me to go to Caesars Palace is if I want to throw dice and play real craps (or I could go to the $3 table at Jean) or I want to see a show. Since they cut my "offers" I told my host they are not big enough to get me up there.
February 14th, 2013 at 2:57:29 AM
permalink
Where are you reading that Sahara rebuild into SLS is not going to happen? They broke ground just today, hours before you made this post.
http://www.lvrj.com/business/sbe-entertainment-secures-last-of-415-million-in-financing-for-sahara-190944381.html
Who cares about the ferris wheel...
http://www.lvrj.com/business/sbe-entertainment-secures-last-of-415-million-in-financing-for-sahara-190944381.html
Who cares about the ferris wheel...
February 14th, 2013 at 3:12:30 AM
permalink
How much better? And how much better at VP is Rincon when compared to a Vegas property known for its VP?Quote: AlanMendelsonI get better video poker at Harrah's Rincon in San Diego than I do at Caesars Palace.
February 14th, 2013 at 3:22:21 AM
permalink
This is actually good news. If EvenBob thinks that something is bad then it must be good because one thing I've learned from this board and the past election cycle, EvenBob is always wrong.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
February 14th, 2013 at 4:06:33 AM
permalink
As for the Wheel, the one you are talking about had funding problems from the start, whereas the CZR Linq is moving right along and will open later this year. When a broke company like Caesars can get it done, someone still has faith in Vegas and the December numbers really looked good.
http://lasvegasblog.harrahs.com/las-vegas-casinos/imperial-palace/the-linq-and-its-high-roller-wheel-are-shaping-up-nicely-thanks/
http://lasvegasblog.harrahs.com/las-vegas-casinos/imperial-palace/the-linq-and-its-high-roller-wheel-are-shaping-up-nicely-thanks/
February 14th, 2013 at 6:24:42 AM
permalink
How much heat is generated by a 250 foot tall half-completed eyesore across from one of your properties?
February 14th, 2013 at 7:28:31 AM
permalink
Quote: s2dbakerIf EvenBob thinks that something is bad then it must be good because one thing I've learned from this board and the past election cycle, EvenBob is always wrong.
A common malady among those who make up their own "facts" as they go along.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
February 14th, 2013 at 7:42:26 AM
permalink
Quote: bbvk05Vegas has too many premium (3 star plus) properties as-is. One major property needs to close and all of the others will be more viable. Unfortunately the are basically all owned by the same 3 companies and they can all take the heat for a long time.
This makes the closing/renovation of places like O'Sheas and Bill's baffling. They don't need any more 3*+ properties. They needed to hang on to those low-rent places.
February 14th, 2013 at 7:45:39 AM
permalink
It's the same principal that a casino would rather have a $25 BJ table open with one person playing than a full table at $10. People who are willing to splurge on a 4 or 5 star hotel are much more likely to spend more money than people who would stay at a 2 or a 3 star place.
When planning a trip to Vegas the cost of the hotel should be the least of your concerns, it should be what you spend while on the trip. In Vegas, I can get a room at the Wynn, Encore, Venetian, Palazzo or any other 5 star hotel for under $200 a night, which in my hometown would cost upwards of $700/night. The real cost is what you spend on meals, gifts and gambling. For instance, I can afford to stay at Wynn/Encore, but I couldn't afford to eat in their restaurants for 3 meals a day for 4-5 straight days.
When planning a trip to Vegas the cost of the hotel should be the least of your concerns, it should be what you spend while on the trip. In Vegas, I can get a room at the Wynn, Encore, Venetian, Palazzo or any other 5 star hotel for under $200 a night, which in my hometown would cost upwards of $700/night. The real cost is what you spend on meals, gifts and gambling. For instance, I can afford to stay at Wynn/Encore, but I couldn't afford to eat in their restaurants for 3 meals a day for 4-5 straight days.
A flute with no holes is not a flute, a donut with no holes is a danish
February 14th, 2013 at 7:54:39 AM
permalink
Quote: FleaStiffHow much better? And how much better at VP is Rincon when compared to a Vegas property known for its VP?
At Rincon I play 8/5 Aces and Faces. And it's available even as low as 25-cents per coin. Caesars doesn't have it, but it has the mirror version of Aces and Faces which is Bonus Poker. But at Caesars, the paytable on Bonus is 7/5 or lower up to and including $5/coin. There are about five machines at Caesars with 8/5 Bonus at the $5 level. Even at the $25 and $100 level at Caesars you can still find 7/5 Bonus right next to a machine with 8/5 Bonus.
I am not a Deuces player and if you are talking about Palms with its full pay DW machine you will have to exclude me. I don't like the game and I don't know it well enough to play it. I also don't like the Palms. Never did. Not my crowd, not my atmosphere.
February 14th, 2013 at 7:58:34 AM
permalink
Quote: BozWhen a broke coming like Caesars can get it done, someone still has faith in Vegas
I think you meant to type "when a broke company like Caesars..."
this is the irony of American business. A big brand company such as Caesars can still raise millions and millions of dollars of capital when needed. But when you and I max out a couple of credit cards, they not only cut off our credit spigot but they also raise the interest rates on the credit we already have.
February 14th, 2013 at 8:00:03 AM
permalink
I think that the Linq and The Quad are an attempt to centralize the low rent places and the low rent activities in one centrally administered place. Carney shops, ferris wheels, cheap grub, cheap rooms, walking around and pushing strollers.... ie, non-gambling and non-3star stuff.Quote: jc2286They don't need any more 3*+ properties. They needed to hang on to those low-rent places.
The economics was to tear down the brand new porte cochere and build a Day Club instead. So that is what is getting done.
Go for the immediate 3star money and segregate the scattered ploppies into one area of lower-class carney-festival stuff.
February 14th, 2013 at 8:00:42 AM
permalink
I am a total rewards member and I am stunned at how Caesars keeps buying and operating while having so much debt it makes Greece and Europe look prosperous.
February 14th, 2013 at 8:18:33 AM
permalink
Quote: jc2286This makes the closing/renovation of places like O'Sheas and Bill's baffling. They don't need any more 3*+ properties. They needed to hang on to those low-rent places.
I'm not so sure. Except for the locals who live there, Las Vegas has always been a gaming destination. With the proliferation of regulated (i.e. not back-room/illegal) gambling throughout the country, Las Vegas is probably wise to set its sights on higher-budget gamblers. The cost of a plane ticket is a significant percentage of a lower-stakes gambler's budget, and many of those players are saving the airfare and playing nearer to home. Think about how many gamblers in the United States live within a 30-minute drive of a regulated gaming machine.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
February 14th, 2013 at 8:33:53 AM
permalink
That might be. And if they can't get higher budget gamblers then higher budget nightclubbers and higher budget gourmands might be a good target.Quote: MathExtremistWith the proliferation of regulated gambling throughout the country, Las Vegas is probably wise to set its sights on higher-budget gamblers.
Ploppies used to travel to Vegas because that is where gambling was legal, now its legal all over the place but its only Vegas in Vegas. However, "Vegas" is an emotional word and its meaning varies. Ploppies can now trek to a nearby Indian casino and have "the Vegas experience" on half a tank of gas. No need to spend an arm and a leg (and be x-rayed) just to get to Vegas. Air fare and hotel become larger expenses for the low rollers.
Perhaps that is why the low rolling Linq is really just a new wrapper for the Imperial Palace and a name change, its not a major re-build or anything.
February 14th, 2013 at 8:43:32 AM
permalink
The cost of air fare is the main deterrent to my wife and I coming to Las Vegas.
Hard to justify paying about $700 off the top just to get there for a few days, when I can drive to a couple Las Vegas-like tribal casinos that offer 95% of the Las Vegas "experience."
Hard to justify paying about $700 off the top just to get there for a few days, when I can drive to a couple Las Vegas-like tribal casinos that offer 95% of the Las Vegas "experience."
"What, me worry?"
February 14th, 2013 at 9:39:39 AM
permalink
Quote: AlanMendelsonI think you meant to type "when a broke company like Caesars..."
this is the irony of American business. A big brand company such as Caesars can still raise millions and millions of dollars of capital when needed. But when you and I max out a couple of credit cards, they not only cut off our credit spigot but they also raise the interest rates on the credit we already have.
Thanks, I did. Exactly American capitalism at its best!
February 14th, 2013 at 9:57:04 AM
permalink
Quote: MathExtremistI'm not so sure. Except for the locals who live there, Las Vegas has always been a gaming destination. With the proliferation of regulated (i.e. not back-room/illegal) gambling throughout the country, Las Vegas is probably wise to set its sights on higher-budget gamblers. The cost of a plane ticket is a significant percentage of a lower-stakes gambler's budget, and many of those players are saving the airfare and playing nearer to home. Think about how many gamblers in the United States live within a 30-minute drive of a regulated gaming machine.
I don't go out there for gaming. I don't need to, I have a casino within driving distance, as you alluded to. I go out there to have fun. And that fun include the whole financial spectrum, from spending several hundred to see 'O', fancy dinners, tables at clubs, to playing beer pong, $6 late night steak+egg specials, and other cheap "low" activities... it's the latter of which that are disappearing, and that's very disappointing.
February 14th, 2013 at 12:40:38 PM
permalink
I agree, jc2286. Tomorrow, my wife and I and two of our neighbors will make a day trip to Harrah's Cherokee. It's a three-hour drive each way, but I can play craps there at $10 minimums (I prefer $5) and get better rules than I can find most places in Vegas -- 10x odds and buy vig on the win. However, Cherokee offers me almost nothing else. I like Las Vegas because there are just so many options for my entertainment, and I generally go there two or three times a year.
February 14th, 2013 at 1:31:04 PM
permalink
For me Vegas is just about the place nearest to me with VP, decent craps and table games.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
February 14th, 2013 at 2:06:55 PM
permalink
Quote: jc2286This makes the closing/renovation of places like O'Sheas and Bill's baffling. They don't need any more 3*+ properties. They needed to hang on to those low-rent places.
Don't be so fast to come the that conclusion. It might be in Caesar's best interest to upgrade those properties because it will take business away from their competitors along with Caesar's own properties. It will increase their market share.
It's just like if McDonalds wants to build. Every new McDonalds take some business away from another nearby McDonalds, but it also takes business away from their competitors. So everybody is constantly building and trying to recapture market share. Overbuilt doesn't necessarily mean that Caesar's should bear the burden of reducing the available stock.
Typical businesses would close down locations that are losing money and damn the consequences. That doesn't happen in Vegas for two reasons- first, these properties can't just be sold and converted into something more usable. They are pretty much designed for a single use. Additionally, the people that own them are the uniquely qualified operations that have the skill and experience to run these places. These properties are worth more to an outfit like Caesar's than anybody else. Second, these gigantic conglomerates can take the burn of losing money for a long time. Investors are willing to finance such major companies with debt.
You have like 2/3 giants just clobbering each other and not backing down in Vegas. Where independent properties would just fold, each one here rearms constantly and is taking a lot of damage.
February 14th, 2013 at 2:40:42 PM
permalink
Quote: PokeraddictWhere are you reading that Sahara rebuild into SLS is not going to happen? They broke ground just today,.
I read a blurb somewhere that the funding deadline
expired Jan 31st and because SBE had been silent
well into Feb, it was assumed the project was dead.
That was Monday, I think. Now they make an
announcement they're breaking ground yesterday,
yet Casino Death Watch says today it hasn't happened
yet. http://www.lvrevealed.com/deathwatch/
SBE has a track record for making announcements that
aren't true, thats why some are skeptical.
Death Watch said this 3 months ago:
We read about a lot of plans, which we always take with a grain of salt. The key for us is two sentences in the article. First, "Initially, work on the redevelopment was scheduled to begin at the end of the summer." Second, "... SBE plans to make an announcement on groundbreaking for redevelopment within a few weeks." They claim to have the financing set up, but as loyal readers of this site know, until the first shovel hits the ground, and until the heavy machinery shows up to stay, we retain a certain amount of skepticism.
I read somewhere else or heard on a podcast that
SBE will say they're redoing the hotel, and you'll
see construction there, and a year later there will
be a new restaurant on the property and not a
renovation at all. So I guess we'll see.
Later edit. Its interesting that Penta Construction, who's
doing the work on the Sahara, has nothing about the
groundbreaking on their blog. They mention the Sahara,
but nothing lately.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
