pai gowpeek
November 4th, 2012 at 8:44:26 PM
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saw a patent applied for this game in feb of this year, anyone have any info on it?
The bet will not be paid- not now not ever
November 9th, 2012 at 2:48:01 PM
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November 9th, 2012 at 5:57:41 PM
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are you the creator?
The bet will not be paid- not now not ever
November 9th, 2012 at 6:47:24 PM
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Pai Gow peek was created by Randy Zinkil of Gaming Network a number of years ago. Gaming Network is now defunct, but they set up a new company called Games Marketing, to distribute games in their portfolio.
I don't know of any installs of the game. The game is more expensive to play, requiring three units as you must play the Low, both, and high betting spots. Furthermore, if you win the hand on both sides, you get even money, but if you "push" (you win one side and lose the other) you actually lose two bets, to win one even money bet. This covers the advantage you get by seeing five of the dealer's seven cards before you set your hand.
I don't know of any installs of the game. The game is more expensive to play, requiring three units as you must play the Low, both, and high betting spots. Furthermore, if you win the hand on both sides, you get even money, but if you "push" (you win one side and lose the other) you actually lose two bets, to win one even money bet. This covers the advantage you get by seeing five of the dealer's seven cards before you set your hand.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 9th, 2012 at 6:50:31 PM
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it sounds intriguing as a pai gow player but a little slow too much going on and confusing for dealer, but id love to play it
The bet will not be paid- not now not ever
November 9th, 2012 at 6:51:15 PM
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dan , just curious what do you think of asian poker? little variation on pai gow in a sense, also any plans on installs on pa on ez pai gow?
The bet will not be paid- not now not ever
November 9th, 2012 at 7:24:37 PM
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Quote: strictlyAPdan , just curious what do you think of asian poker? little variation on pai gow in a sense, also any plans on installs on pa on ez pai gow?
Personally, I like it, it is a lot of fun, but it has few installs.
The strategy can be tricky, (see: Mike's Asia Poker page), but more so, Asia Poker is somewhat troublesome for a casino operator to offer:
1. Dealing it is tricky;
2. It's a slow game, and;
3. Not a large audience for it. Pai Gow poker players like it, but not enough to propel the game into a lot of installs.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 9th, 2012 at 8:51:37 PM
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Quote: strictlyAPdan , just curious what do you think of asian poker? little variation on pai gow in a sense, also any plans on installs on pa on ez pai gow?
I played Asia poker, and it was easily beatable. The dealers just missed WAY too many hands. I played at Paris for 2 hours, around $25 per hand, and won $400, and the dealer was SLOW. I think my entire win was from poor dealer play. I also won at the Rio at a smaller but steady rate. As a 'flea' level player, i was able to win $1000 at that game, and there were just too many arguments between players and the dealer... A lady was 86'd for wanting the dealer to change almost any hand she lost.... I think it does not exist anymore in Vegas, but if it does I'd like to give it a shot again....
November 9th, 2012 at 10:16:56 PM
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Quote: SOOPOOI played Asia poker, and it was easily beatable. The dealers just missed WAY too many hands. I played at Paris for 2 hours, around $25 per hand, and won $400, and the dealer was SLOW. I think my entire win was from poor dealer play. I also won at the Rio at a smaller but steady rate. As a 'flea' level player, i was able to win $1000 at that game, and there were just too many arguments between players and the dealer... A lady was 86'd for wanting the dealer to change almost any hand she lost.... I think it does not exist anymore in Vegas, but if it does I'd like to give it a shot again....
Games that are prone to many Dealer errors do make casino operators queasy: Asia Poker, and some poker variants, and the like. These games require game protection and accuracy skills that many dealers lack.
This is actually a selling point for SHFL's I-Deal table; games like Three Card Poker, UTH, Texas Hold 'em bonus, etc. are now easy to deal. I-deal enforces the proper dealer hand setting, and always evaluates and pays the hands perfectly. And so it never allows for the pinching and capping of bets, too. All a dealer has to do is distribute cards, let the players play their hands by pressing the screen buttons, then scoop up the cards at the end of a round. Remarkable product.
The dumping that Asia Poker can do is not all simple variance, as there is a lot of dealer error in that money lost, and the operators know this. This, along with a slow game being further slowed by the extra demands it makes on floor supervision is just too much trouble to have. A shame...
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 9th, 2012 at 10:32:09 PM
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Quote: PaigowdanPai Gow peek was created by Randy Zinkil of Gaming Network a number of years ago. Gaming Network is now defunct, but they set up a new company called Games Marketing, to distribute games in their portfolio.
I don't know of any installs of the game. The game is more expensive to play, requiring three units on the Low, both, and high betting spots. Furthermore, if you win the hand on both sides, you get even money, but if you "push" (you win one side and lose the other) you actually lose two bets, to win one even money bet. This covers the advantage you get by seeing five of the dealer's seven cards before you set your hand.
The video shows a 2 to 1 payout on the both bet. Game seems like it would be interesting but probably slow with the players trying to figure out what the most likely dealer hand will be before setting their own.
November 10th, 2012 at 7:40:08 AM
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Quote: PaigowdanPai Gow peek was created by Randy Zinkil of Gaming Network a number of years ago. Gaming Network is now defunct, but they set up a new company called Games Marketing, to distribute games in their portfolio.
Dan, I believe that Games Marketing is an established company based in London, UK. They deal mainly with providing Internet games but it seems that they may be branching into land-based casinos now.
November 10th, 2012 at 8:57:08 AM
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http://www.gamesmarketing.com/grand-opening-of-highhand-blackjack/
this link is to page with High Hand blackjack video. Hey, i am still puter illiterate Ok Just click on the video.
Game seems like a lot of extra work for the dealer. And as a player I would not bet it for 2 reasons., least of all the 5%
commission. Check it out and report back , thanks.. Bad enough to make a marginal split, but then to add more money to the community bet. No Way.
Should be interesting when a player has money tied up in community pot and asks the other players to wait while he goes to the ATM. LOL
Or when other players pull back their bet as courtesy to the guy running to the ATM. And the drunk who walks up and wants to play that open spot now.
The dealer must also remember who was in the original pot, so nobody gets in on second or later hand who was not in original pot. FUN FUN FUN
this link is to page with High Hand blackjack video. Hey, i am still puter illiterate Ok Just click on the video.
Game seems like a lot of extra work for the dealer. And as a player I would not bet it for 2 reasons., least of all the 5%
commission. Check it out and report back , thanks.. Bad enough to make a marginal split, but then to add more money to the community bet. No Way.
Should be interesting when a player has money tied up in community pot and asks the other players to wait while he goes to the ATM. LOL
Or when other players pull back their bet as courtesy to the guy running to the ATM. And the drunk who walks up and wants to play that open spot now.
The dealer must also remember who was in the original pot, so nobody gets in on second or later hand who was not in original pot. FUN FUN FUN
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
November 10th, 2012 at 10:07:07 AM
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I played High-hand Blackjack at the Palms after a dinner there a number of months ago. I played the game with Steve, my business partner, Rich Newman (the patent attorney), Gary Willis (a game designer), and my wife.
The game was fun, the dealer dealt it fast and well, and it drew people in. I believe this game was a part of the old Gaming Network portfolio, along with Pai Gow Peek. I remember being impressed with the game, it played well, and was easily dealable, though more complex than just straight-up blackjack. And the pots can certainly tempt you to ignore basic strategy; strategy on this game is different.
As for some player running to the ATM, that is no different than playing any other table game when you're low on funds.
Tracking who was in or out of an earlier round of play is something that blackjack dealers already do with "no mid-round entry" play in any case. High-hand blackjack is no more difficult to deal than Asia Poker.
And yes, the game was really FUN FUN FUN, which is why it has a good shot at succeeding.
Games Marketing is working "both sides of the pond," as they say. The Youtube videos are/were produced and narrated by Jeff Voyles, the former head of Gaming Network.
The game was fun, the dealer dealt it fast and well, and it drew people in. I believe this game was a part of the old Gaming Network portfolio, along with Pai Gow Peek. I remember being impressed with the game, it played well, and was easily dealable, though more complex than just straight-up blackjack. And the pots can certainly tempt you to ignore basic strategy; strategy on this game is different.
As for some player running to the ATM, that is no different than playing any other table game when you're low on funds.
Tracking who was in or out of an earlier round of play is something that blackjack dealers already do with "no mid-round entry" play in any case. High-hand blackjack is no more difficult to deal than Asia Poker.
And yes, the game was really FUN FUN FUN, which is why it has a good shot at succeeding.
Games Marketing is working "both sides of the pond," as they say. The Youtube videos are/were produced and narrated by Jeff Voyles, the former head of Gaming Network.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 10th, 2012 at 10:12:25 AM
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" As for some player running to the ATM, that is no different than playing any other table game when you're low on funds."
I was referring to a player running out of funds due to some splits or whatever as the community jackpot built up. He is tapped out and headed to the atm, but I assume play continues and he is not in for the community pot he contributed to ??
I was referring to a player running out of funds due to some splits or whatever as the community jackpot built up. He is tapped out and headed to the atm, but I assume play continues and he is not in for the community pot he contributed to ??
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
November 10th, 2012 at 11:53:33 AM
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Quote: Buzzard" As for some player running to the ATM, that is no different than playing any other table game when you're low on funds."
I was referring to a player running out of funds due to some splits or whatever as the community jackpot built up. He is tapped out and headed to the atm, but I assume play continues and he is not in for the community pot he contributed to ??
When a player abandons a game mid-round on any table game, the dealer calls for floor supervision to handle a player abandoning a game.
On bets that are not returnable (such as a pass line bet in craps and possibly the pot stake here), the bet remains in action as a "ghost bet." If it loses, it is locked up into the table's chip rack, and if it wins, the original bet plus the winnings are held aside if the player returns - if it can be separated. This case if different: it may be something like "if you can't raise, then you fold."
I assume and have seen the following:
In cases where the player needs to bet more in order to continue the hand but he cannot continue, his hand is declared dead, with the returnable bets returned to him, and where the locked-in-action bets are forfeited, - as if he folded. In the case of the pot bet, since the player cannot win as being out of the game, an other player will later win the pot, to include his forfeited amount. Often, a player will borrow or "bum" the needed bet amount and stay in, hopefully to return the amount borrowed back to the player who lent it to him.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 10th, 2012 at 1:05:23 PM
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High hand is an absolutely terrible game. I realized that within about 15 seconds of seeing it for the first time at the Palms. Even without the ridiculous 5% commission, the house would clean up by spreading it. The problem is, it often makes it correct to make sub-optimal plays on your hand in order to try to win the high hand pot. Say you are last to act. The dealer has a 5 showing and everyone has stayed with hands in the 12-15 range. You have a 12 showing. What do you do?
If the money in the high hand pot is large compared to your blackjack bet, you should hit. You are giving EV to the house by hitting a hand you should stand on in an attempt to extract more EV from the jackpot bet. It's the correct play -- the house is profiting from you, but you are profiting more from the other players.
The fact that they feel the need to charge a commission on top of this makes it even worse....
Most side bets just have a high house edge but at least don't sabotage the main game for you. This one is a double-whammy.
If the money in the high hand pot is large compared to your blackjack bet, you should hit. You are giving EV to the house by hitting a hand you should stand on in an attempt to extract more EV from the jackpot bet. It's the correct play -- the house is profiting from you, but you are profiting more from the other players.
The fact that they feel the need to charge a commission on top of this makes it even worse....
Most side bets just have a high house edge but at least don't sabotage the main game for you. This one is a double-whammy.
November 10th, 2012 at 1:18:54 PM
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Good points, these aspects do detract from the game. But having played the game, I did see the "juice of play" effect of the pot. Some will find the strategy mods headache-producing, and others, like me, found it exciting. The people who at least "kind of liked it" did have a poker-focused gambling bent.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 10th, 2012 at 1:26:52 PM
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5 Players A B C D E. Player A taps out with 14 times table minimum as his share of family pot because of
his splits and 8 rounds without a winner. He asks other players for a loan. Player B will loan him $50 for
$ 75. Player C counters with $70. Player D is yelling No Fair. Player E is shouting at dealer " DEAL the
f***ing cards, asshole " What is a dealer to do? LOL
Do not say call the pit boss, because as soon as you do that Player A will sprint to the ATM, and whether
he gets back in time or not, all hell will break loose.
Surely this is covered in the rules. We must have rules, we really must. Like no counting. Except this one must be shown to the players, I should think !
his splits and 8 rounds without a winner. He asks other players for a loan. Player B will loan him $50 for
$ 75. Player C counters with $70. Player D is yelling No Fair. Player E is shouting at dealer " DEAL the
f***ing cards, asshole " What is a dealer to do? LOL
Do not say call the pit boss, because as soon as you do that Player A will sprint to the ATM, and whether
he gets back in time or not, all hell will break loose.
Surely this is covered in the rules. We must have rules, we really must. Like no counting. Except this one must be shown to the players, I should think !
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
November 10th, 2012 at 1:37:43 PM
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" Most side bets just have a high house edge but at least don't sabotage the main game for you. This one is a double-whammy. "
How about you are only playing one hand, when you split, beat the dealer, get the 2 top hands, and therefore the pot rolls over. ? LOL
How about you are only playing one hand, when you split, beat the dealer, get the 2 top hands, and therefore the pot rolls over. ? LOL
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
November 10th, 2012 at 1:40:06 PM
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Quote: Buzzard5 Players A B C D E. Player A taps out with 14 times table minimum as his share of family pot because of
his splits and 8 rounds without a winner. He asks other players for a loan. Player B will loan him $50 for
$ 75. Player C counters with $70. Player D is yelling No Fair. Player E is shouting at dealer " DEAL the
f***ing cards, asshole " What is a dealer to do? LOL
Do not say call the pit boss, because as soon as you do that Player A will sprint to the ATM, and whether
he gets back in time or not, all hell will break loose.
You mean just like in the poker room, eh?
No. If a player had lost or is out, then he is out, same as any other game. And any problem, then yes, call the pit boss. That's what he is there for. so far, I have seen no such problems. What happens when a player with Pocket Aces can't make the bet or raise bet on Ultimate Texas Hold 'em? Hasn't happened there, either, "all hell breaking loose." He either gets the money to play, or he leaves.
Quote: Buzzard
Surely this is covered in the rules. We must have rules, we really must. Like no counting. Except this one must be shown to the players, I should think !
I agree. If I were you, I'd go call up Games Marketing, and demand to see where it is written.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 10th, 2012 at 2:02:33 PM
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Quote: PaigowdanYou mean just like in the poker room, eh?
No. If a player had lost or is out, then he is out, same as any other game. And any problem, then yes, call the pit boss. That's what he is there for. so far, I have seen no such problems. What happens when a player with Pocket Aces can't make the bet or raise bet on Ultimate Texas Hold 'em? Hasn't happened there, either, "all hell breaking loose." He either gets the money to play, or he leaves.
I agree. If I were you, I'd go call up Games Marketing, and demand to see where it is written.
I have already emailed them for the rules, Dan. And Player A starts screaming for the pit boss, while his son streaks to the ATM.
Now, the pit boss can not win. If he does not get the cards in the air soon as Player E wants the cards dealt NOW.
And if the son gets back first, Player E will want gaming called before a card is dealt now !
That why we need real rules for the community pot. When this game was demo'd at a recent showcase it rolled over 12 times.
Since a player has to bet the table minimum at both BJ and High Hand, players will tapping out more than expected.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
November 10th, 2012 at 2:17:39 PM
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Quote: BuzzardI have already emailed them for the rules, Dan. And Player A starts screaming for the pit boss, while his son streaks to the ATM.
Now, the pit boss can not win. If he does not get the cards in the air soon as Player E wants the cards dealt NOW.
And if the son gets back first, Player E will want gaming called before a card is dealt now !
That why we need real rules for the community pot. When this game was demo'd at a recent showcase it rolled over 12 times.
Since a player has to bet the table minimum at both BJ and High Hand, players will tapping out more than expected.
I have played this game - in real casinos - and without ever witnessing the problems or scenarios you describe.
Yes, the pot frequently rolls over. Yes, it makes the game very exciting. Yes, people may be upset if they run out of playing money, and then they will try to run the game themselves over the directives issued by the pit boss. This is tried by players on all sorts of table games, this game no exception.
And yes, these issues - which are the responsibility of the game's distributor and the casinos who use this product, mind you, do indeed seem to be addressed in the real world - as this game has installs.
I assume they (Games Marketing) did not respond to your email, as the pot rules are posted on their website at Pot rules for High-hand blackjack. It clearly states:
To win a HighHand™ Blackjack Pot that rolls over one or more times, players must participate in each Pot round to be eligible to win the HighHand™ Blackjack Pot. So what this says if that you did NOT or cannot participate in the pot for a round of play, then you are out of the pot.
If the game's rules are acceptable to the various Gaming Control boards' approval process, then the game may be installed and played, which this game has achieved.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 10th, 2012 at 2:20:17 PM
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" Most side bets just have a high house edge but at least don't sabotage the main game for you. This one is a double-whammy. "
Player A & B are only players at table. Pot is big now. Player A bets 1 hand and Player B now spreads to 3 hands. Player A is
screwed more than usual.
Player A & B are only players at table. Pot is big now. Player A bets 1 hand and Player B now spreads to 3 hands. Player A is
screwed more than usual.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
November 10th, 2012 at 2:26:58 PM
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" I assume they (Games Marketing) did not respond to your email, as the pot rules are posted on their website"
I rather think they will. I did read those rules. Nothing in them about handling the situations I described. In your answer, the players fate will be decided by the pit boss, or rather, hold long it takes him to get to the table to make a ruling. And who knows what that decision will be.
Plus a lack of rules puts a player in an uncomfortable position. Player A wants to go to ATM, B, C and D, agree to wait. Player E
is now put in a position he might not like.
I rather think they will. I did read those rules. Nothing in them about handling the situations I described. In your answer, the players fate will be decided by the pit boss, or rather, hold long it takes him to get to the table to make a ruling. And who knows what that decision will be.
Plus a lack of rules puts a player in an uncomfortable position. Player A wants to go to ATM, B, C and D, agree to wait. Player E
is now put in a position he might not like.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
November 10th, 2012 at 2:31:58 PM
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' I have played this game - in real casinos - and without ever witnessing the problems or scenarios you describe."
dan, SHIT happens !
dan, SHIT happens !
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
November 10th, 2012 at 2:40:12 PM
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Quote: Buzzard" I assume they (Games Marketing) did not respond to your email, as the pot rules are posted on their website"
I rather think they will. I did read those rules. Nothing in them about handling the situations I described. In your answer, the players fate will be decided by the pit boss, or rather, hold long it takes him to get to the table to make a ruling. And who knows what that decision will be.
In situations concerning people running to the ATM while screaming are items that are not covered, or supposed to be covered, in the game play submission sheets that a distributor submits to any gaming authority. Those situations are handled by the pit boss, as these scenarios apply to all table games, and are customer behavior issues. The game rules state that if you did not participate in the pot during a round of play, then you are out of the pot, as if you had folded your interest in the pot's participation. If it's because you are now broke, and that does happen at the tables, then you may be out of the game. Come back when you have money to play. Any local customer behavioral problems stemming from this situation is the responsibility of the pit boss to handle, not the distributor. If you are forced to fold out of the pot, then you may miss that pot.
True. Uncomfortable situations occur in gambling, and depleting your bankroll to the point where you have difficulty participating in a game is a common situation that is uncomfortable, and it applies to all games. But this is not a game rule issue, as the rules state "no money for the pot = you're out of the pot." This is a "being broke" issue, and is common to many table game situations.Quote: BuzzardPlus a lack of rules puts a player in an uncomfortable position.
Quote: BuzzardPlayer A wants to go to ATM, B, C and D, agree to wait. Player E
is now put in a position he might not like.
True. Player A may have to walk his broke @ss over to the ATM machine, and he may lose game-play participation as a result of his absence, at least for that round. Same thing applies if a player takes a bathroom break when he does have money.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 10th, 2012 at 2:46:44 PM
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' True. Player E may have to walk his broke @ss over to the ATM machine" Yeah, now he is a broke @ss player, not a loyal
customer !
customer !
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
November 10th, 2012 at 2:58:35 PM
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Quote: Buzzard' True. Player E may have to walk his broke @ss over to the ATM machine" Yeah, now he is a broke @ss player, not a loyal
customer !
True, but that's called losing, and it happens on all games offered.
Unlike the winners, and the others who enjoyed the game, he may dislike the game for the reason that he lost on it.
At work, I saw a player who was a frequent EZ Pai Gow player now playing another game (Three Card Poker). He said that he lost on my game, and is now trying another game. Fine. for that matter, I also have people who jump on my game after losing on Three Card Poker, etc.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 10th, 2012 at 3:29:23 PM
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" True, but that's called losing, and it happens on all games offered. " Except for Blackjack. Then we accuse the consistent winner a
of being a cheater!charter !
of being a cheater!charter !
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
November 10th, 2012 at 3:39:26 PM
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Not me.
If a player is clean, then good for him, win or lose.
If a player is dirty, then bad for him, win or lose.
If a player is clean, then good for him, win or lose.
If a player is dirty, then bad for him, win or lose.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 10th, 2012 at 3:42:00 PM
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Quote: PaigowdanNot me.
If a player is clean, then good for him, win or lose.
If a player is dirty, then bad for him, win or lose.
ROFLMAO You got me Dan. Just glad EvenBob was not here to see it !
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
November 10th, 2012 at 3:54:27 PM
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Quote: BuzzardROFLMAO You got me Dan. Just glad EvenBob was not here to see it !
Why? This is exactly how it works, regardless of your or Bob's beliefs otherwise.
First of all, gamblers don't win - they borrow. It's a LOAN. Don't you guys know this?
Second of all, what do I care if there happens to be both winners and losers? This is the way it's always been, and I know and accept it, just love it. A game has to produce adequate winners - in order to be a viable game in the first place.
So as long as the wins occur without cheating on anyone's part - player and casino alike! - it's dandy with me.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 10th, 2012 at 4:11:10 PM
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That we both agree counting is not cheating? If so, welcome to reality !
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
November 10th, 2012 at 4:22:17 PM
permalink
Quote: BuzzardThat we both agree counting is not cheating? If so, welcome to reality !
I've been in reality well enough to become an executive of a company that I founded, as well as a successful game designer. I can retire on what I earn right now from the business, and very few in this business can say that.
I have always felt that wins and loses were, and always will be, a part of gaming and gambling.
I've also felt, and still do, that taking ill-gotten gains from cheating - or unapproved practices against the casino house rules - are unacceptable. And card-counting IS an unapproved practice against the casino house, even if it is fine by the local police captain, just as to him, 86-ing players from a casino is fine to him also. I feel a card counter that is caught in the act should be barred from play, and without it being a police matter.
As far as I am concerned, if both you and I see eye-to-eye on every gambling issue, then I would be concerned about my grounding in gambling reality, as much as I think you're a great guy. I know this business, and how the casino pit operates as a business in a very realistic fashion.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 10th, 2012 at 4:51:07 PM
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Quote: PaigowdanGood points, these aspects do detract from the game. But having played the game, I did see the "juice of play" effect of the pot. Some will find the strategy mods headache-producing, and others, like me, found it exciting. The people who at least "kind of liked it" did have a poker-focused gambling bent.
I love poker. I would gladly play this game (although probably not with 5% juice) on its own. But I wouldn't play it at the same time as blackjack. It would be like playing a blackjack tourney, and also betting some of your own money on every hand. It puts you in a really bad spot of having two bets and being forced to make a sub-optimal play on one of them to save the other.
November 10th, 2012 at 4:56:11 PM
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Again spot-on.
It was the trade-off between the bets I found challenging, kind of like deciding how to split a Pai Gow hand: "should I go for that play?" Often, the best BJ play matches the best pot play, but is often VERY significant when it doesn't. You have a hard 17 while other players have 19's. Ugg! Hit and pray for a 2, 3 or 4?? Now you factor in the pot size.....my widdle head hurts!
I will say that I believe the vig on the pot is unnecessary, as it's:
1. just player to player money, and where the main BJ bet is being played demonsterably worse, increasing the house edge on the base game.
2. The house can win the pot. [Correction - it rolls over to the players' next pot]
Is there a pitch version of the game, where the opposing players' cards are concealled from play?
It was the trade-off between the bets I found challenging, kind of like deciding how to split a Pai Gow hand: "should I go for that play?" Often, the best BJ play matches the best pot play, but is often VERY significant when it doesn't. You have a hard 17 while other players have 19's. Ugg! Hit and pray for a 2, 3 or 4?? Now you factor in the pot size.....my widdle head hurts!
I will say that I believe the vig on the pot is unnecessary, as it's:
1. just player to player money, and where the main BJ bet is being played demonsterably worse, increasing the house edge on the base game.
2. The house can win the pot. [Correction - it rolls over to the players' next pot]
Is there a pitch version of the game, where the opposing players' cards are concealled from play?
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 10th, 2012 at 5:04:48 PM
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If there were no vig I would consider playing (but not with the house being able to win the pot... that is much worse than 5% vig!). Then it would be a question of whether I could win enough from the other players to compensate for the extra BJ losses (or if it was close enough that I had enough fun trying)
I understand what you are saying about it being fun to try to balance the two bets, and I agree that it would be, but at 5% vig + the worse blackjack game it's just way too expensive. It's worse than a 6-deck 6:5 H17 blackjack game -- ie, easily the worst blackjack game in the casino. You may as well go play slots.
I understand what you are saying about it being fun to try to balance the two bets, and I agree that it would be, but at 5% vig + the worse blackjack game it's just way too expensive. It's worse than a 6-deck 6:5 H17 blackjack game -- ie, easily the worst blackjack game in the casino. You may as well go play slots.
November 10th, 2012 at 5:13:41 PM
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Quote: AxiomOfChoiceIf there were no vig I would consider playing (but not with the house being able to win the pot... that is much worse than 5% vig!). Then it would be a question of whether I could win enough from the other players to compensate for the extra BJ losses (or if it was close enough that I had enough fun trying)
I understand what you are saying about it being fun to try to balance the two bets, and I agree that it would be, but at 5% vig + the worse blackjack game it's just way too expensive. It's worse than a 6-deck 6:5 H17 blackjack game -- ie, easily the worst blackjack game in the casino. You may as well go play slots.
Axiom - You're right! When I played it, I not only bought back in, I had to leave quicker being down quicker, but what a quickie it was. The catch to this game does have a lot of juice to it, just make it more affordable, and new players won't get burnt out quickly, which the game designer should take note of.
1. The house edge on this Blackjack game should only come from the Blackjack side alone, - as the pot strategy increases the hold of the base BJ game, via base game misplays - to profitable levels anyway!
2. The greater shifting of pot money between players may increase the "table turnover" - and open up seats for the next "new money" player to enter the table more quickly, as players get creamed by the other players, in addition to the house. Some players will have to leave - or buy back in with new money!
3. So, the existing players would be more likely to add new buy-ins, in order to chase pots, or else leave, to open up new seats.
4. A player on a winning "pot streak" will have a lot of chips in front of him - noticeable - and will act like a shill, to draw in passing players into the game. Players passing by the table may say, "I gotta get into that action!"
ALL of which will increase total table drop money with a bigger BJ house edge - without the need for a pot rake or vig, really. Diabolical!
If they do away with the pot vig, it'll help the game, and still be very profitable, I think.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 10th, 2012 at 5:25:28 PM
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" 2. The greater shifting of pot money between players may increase the "table turnover" - and open up seats for the next "new money" player to enter the table more quickly, as players get creamed by the other players, in addition to the house. Some players will have to leave - or buy back in with new money!
And on the other side, new players can not participate in the high hand jackpot until it is resolved. As a matter of fact, I do not
believe he can even play a hand until that happens. My pet peeve with that game
is when a player splits a hand, adds to the jackpot, and then because he gets two 19's for the highest two hands , he can not win the
jackpot ???
And on the other side, new players can not participate in the high hand jackpot until it is resolved. As a matter of fact, I do not
believe he can even play a hand until that happens. My pet peeve with that game
is when a player splits a hand, adds to the jackpot, and then because he gets two 19's for the highest two hands , he can not win the
jackpot ???
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
November 10th, 2012 at 5:28:49 PM
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Absolutely on the right track Dan and Axiom.
I saw this game dealt at The Nugget and thought that the best way to popularize this game is to do away with the 5% vig.
I actually have another way to reduce the vig to less than 1% and spice it up a little hand but I don't really want to improve a competing product.
In fact, thinking about it, I rather they leave it as it is :-)
I saw this game dealt at The Nugget and thought that the best way to popularize this game is to do away with the 5% vig.
I actually have another way to reduce the vig to less than 1% and spice it up a little hand but I don't really want to improve a competing product.
In fact, thinking about it, I rather they leave it as it is :-)
November 10th, 2012 at 5:29:48 PM
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" I've been in reality well enough to become an executive of a company that I founded, as well as a successful game designer. I can retire on what I earn right now from the business, and very few in this business can say that."
Reality is not determined by wealth. Donald Trump is in the gaming business too, but I don't respect his opinion anymore than yours.
Just say counting is not cheating ! try it. It won't hurt, I promise. I have never said the casino could not 86 me or anybody else. Don't call us cheaters.
Here you can just cut and paste. " I, Dan Lubin, state that counters are not cheaters. "
Reality is not determined by wealth. Donald Trump is in the gaming business too, but I don't respect his opinion anymore than yours.
Just say counting is not cheating ! try it. It won't hurt, I promise. I have never said the casino could not 86 me or anybody else. Don't call us cheaters.
Here you can just cut and paste. " I, Dan Lubin, state that counters are not cheaters. "
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
November 10th, 2012 at 5:33:02 PM
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Quote: SwitchAbsolutely on the right track Dan and Axiom.
I saw this game dealt at The Nugget and thought that the best way to popularize this game is to do away with the 5% vig.
I actually have another way to reduce the vig to less than 1% and spice it up a little hand but I don't really want to improve a competing product.
In fact, thinking about it, I rather they leave it as it is :-)
Really want to spice the game up. Make it single deck pitch and add the fact of not seeing the other players card plus the strategy
goes thru the roof. Do I keep my hidden 18 in early position against a 6, or split my nines and have other players see what totals I
get.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
November 10th, 2012 at 5:34:56 PM
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Quote: Buzzard" 2. The greater shifting of pot money between players may increase the "table turnover" - and open up seats for the next "new money" player to enter the table more quickly, as players get creamed by the other players, in addition to the house. Some players will have to leave - or buy back in with new money!"
This aspect does make the game more expensive to play - And I do think the game should go vigless on the pot, to be fairer to the player.
Quote: BuzzardAnd on the other side, new players can not participate in the high hand jackpot until it is resolved. As a matter of fact, I do not
believe he can even play a hand until that happens.
This is actually fair, as new players shouldn't be able to jump into a huge pot with a penny ante late in the pot. This application of the "no midround entry rule" is reasonable.
Quote: BuzzardMy pet peeve with that game
is when a player splits a hand, adds to the jackpot, and then because he gets two 19's for the highest two hands , he can not win the
jackpot ???
I agree with you on this. IF the SAME player had split and got two equal top hands - he should win the pot. Particularly because that is an even harder feat to obtain.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 10th, 2012 at 5:41:46 PM
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Quote: Buzzard[Dan]" I've been in reality well enough to become an executive of a company that I founded, as well as a successful game designer. I can retire on what I earn right now from the business, and very few in this business can say that."
Reality is not determined by wealth. Donald Trump is in the gaming business too, but I don't respect his opinion anymore than yours.
I don't always respect his opinion. I do, however, respect his success. Good for him.
Quote: BuzzardJust say counting is not cheating ! try it. It won't hurt, I promise. I have never said the casino could not 86 me or anybody else. Don't call us cheaters.
I say this:
1. Counting is not considered cheating by state law and law authorities.
2. Counting is considered cheating by the house rules and pit supervisors, - and this is proven by the flat-betting and 86-ing of players who get caught doing this.
3. Laws allow casino operators to take defense against those whom THE CASINO considers cheaters, or at least breaking the house rules, allowing back-offs and 86-ing.
Quote: BuzzardHere you can just cut and paste. " I, Dan Lubin, state that counters are not cheaters. "
Sheesh, Buzz, will ya read the above and give all that a rest??!!
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 10th, 2012 at 5:43:57 PM
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" I agree with you on this." In the future please warn me before such shocking statements. My doctors wants me to stay away from unnecessary excitement. LOL
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
November 10th, 2012 at 5:45:44 PM
permalink
Quote: PaigowdanQuote: Buzzard[Dan]" I've been in reality well enough to become an executive of a company that I founded, as well as a successful game designer. I can retire on what I earn right now from the business, and very few in this business can say that."
Reality is not determined by wealth. Donald Trump is in the gaming business too, but I don't respect his opinion anymore than yours.
I don't always respect his opinion. I do, however, respect his success. Good for him.
I say this:
1. Counting is not considered cheating by state law and law authorities.
2. Counting is considered cheating by the house rules and pit supervisors, - and this is proven by the flat-betting and 86-ing of players who get caught doing this.
3. Laws allow casino operators to take defense against those whom THE CASINO considers cheaters, or at least breaking the house rules, allowing back-offs and 86-ing.
Actions speak louder than words. You still consider counters to be cheaters. You can lead a horse to water, but you can not make him drink !
Sheesh, Buzz, will ya read the above and give all that a rest??!!
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
November 10th, 2012 at 6:01:42 PM
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Quote: BuzzardActions speak louder than words. You still consider counters to be cheaters. You can lead a horse to water, but you can not make him drink !
That's right, as it is the horse who knows when he is thirsty.
I will say this - again - and please get it:
1. Counting is not considered cheating by state law and law authorities. I agree with this.
2. Counting is considered cheating by the house rules and pit supervisors, - and this is proven by the flat-betting and 86-ing of players who get caught doing this. I agree with this.
3. Laws allow casino operators to take defense against those whom THE CASINO considers cheaters, or at least breaking the house rules, allowing back-offs and 86-ing. I agree with this.
In other words, when I am dealing BJ at a casino, and spot a counter on my table, I will inform the pit boss. My job, until next month, anyway. And I agree with his decision to flat-bet him or back him off.
When I am not in a casino, not only do I not care about don't card counting, I really don't look down on it, as it is legal and a non-issue for me about that person, IF I am not dealing to him. In fact, I do work in this business with people whom I KNOW are card-counters when they play. If I am not dealing to him, I don't care. However, when he told me that he got backed-off at such and such a place, I say, "well, shoot, what did you expect?! Served you right for doing it, as you knew the house rules going into it. Figure it out, that is what happens, and I don't want to hear you crying about being backed-off."
Things that are wrong to do in some circumstances can also be immaterial in other circumstances. An example: it is perfectly all right to sleep in the nude in your own bed at night. Who cares? But it is not all right to show up at work butt naked.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 10th, 2012 at 6:11:29 PM
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" Things that are wrong to do in some circumstances can also be immaterial in other circumstances. An example: it is perfectly all right to sleep in the nude in your own bed at night. Who cares? But it is not all right to show up at work butt naked. "
What in the hell has that to do with card counting ? There is nothing wrong with counting. That's why it is NOT cheating, despite your belief that it is. And linking it to an asinine analogy will not make it so. !
What in the hell has that to do with card counting ? There is nothing wrong with counting. That's why it is NOT cheating, despite your belief that it is. And linking it to an asinine analogy will not make it so. !
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
November 10th, 2012 at 6:32:10 PM
permalink
Quote: Buzzard[Dan]" Things that are wrong to do in some circumstances can also be immaterial in other circumstances. An example: it is perfectly all right to sleep in the nude in your own bed at night. Who cares? But it is not all right to show up at work butt naked. "
What in the hell has that to do with card counting ? There is nothing wrong with counting. That's why it is NOT cheating, despite your belief that it is. And linking it to an asinine analogy will not make it so. !
Fine. Then go to a casino and get flat-betted, backed off, or 86-ed from the casino, and while in the parking lot (or at the Bus stop), tell yourself, "Damn it! It's what I believe, not that they believe - it is legal! Legal, legal, legal!" - but then you realize that the casino backing you off was also legal. They said, "Sir, you are done for the night," while you were saying, "no! no! no!"
Then ask yourself: if both are legal to do - card counting and backing someone off and out of a casino - then why is the pit boss still in the casino, but you were shown the door? It is because the pit boss felt it was wrong, while YOU felt it was oh-so-right to do. You believe it is not cheating, and yet the pit boss thought that it was, which is why you were backed off. Now, you had a belief, and HE too had a belief. Who is right, who got his way with his beliefs, even by the law? Not the one on the bus. And you'd be right about it being legal, because if you are on the bus, then you are not in jail.
So both are legal to do. Now, if the pit boss thought your card counting actions were not wrong, then you'd still be in the casino making millions, right? People believe what they want to believe, and so, fine with that. But when your beliefs don't get you results, and someone else's does, then you have to consider the "traction" of your beliefs.
I believe this: card-counting may be consistently viewed as benign on some internet forum, but in the real world in a real casino, - not on the internet playland, it might be considered "less benign" than one would like to believe, and accept.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 10th, 2012 at 6:38:48 PM
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deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
