AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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November 27th, 2011 at 12:48:41 PM permalink
Quote: Mosca

And I'll give YOU $500 if you find the word "god" in The Constitution.



How about $250 for a synonomous term?

"Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth. In Witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names"

The fact that is both states "Our Lord" and uses the Christian Calender by stating the year 1787 shows proof of a Christian background in the writing. By requiring witness to the same Lord of those who signed it is further proof.

Establishment clause was never supposed to be about "tax dollars supporting a religion." It was about not having a state religion similar to the Church of England. The Founding Fathers never intended the USA to be an agnostic state.

Please wire the funds to the poker cage at Rivers Casino.......................
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thecesspit
thecesspit
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November 27th, 2011 at 3:47:17 PM permalink
I don't know if you can or cannot claim the intention of the founding fathers. There's a lot of them, and they all had different beliefs and intentions. WHICH is the very beauty of the first amendment... the state should have no opinion on the matter of someone's personal beliefs, be they Christian, atheist, Muslim or Jewish.

No-one sensible would claim that there isn't a Christian background to the Constitution and it's amendments. That's as self evident as saying it was a White, Male, Anglo-Saxon background as well. If AZDuffman was writing a constitution, I'd be bloody surprised if it was from a African, Communist, Muslim perspective.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
thecesspit
thecesspit
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November 27th, 2011 at 3:53:17 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

"Several" yes, I think it was about three. The rest were mostly protestant with I think one catholic thrown in. Just saw this on Sunday as I said, forgot a bit of it because it was so intense. The USA had been going less christian because since the JFK Administration it has been harder and harder for a European to come over here and easier for others.



If you want a Christian nation, you should be happy. Less and less people in Europe identify with a religion, while I thought the biggest groups immigrating into the US are Hispanic Catholics (and some from the Phillipinnes as well, also Catholics).


Quote:


Yes, and that is where atheism falls. Ones who do not "make it a religion" would fall towards agnostic. In the USA atheism and envrionmentalism seem to be the two non-god-driven religions. Weirdest thing I ever saw was an atheist professor who went to an atheist church. Actually used christian hymns and replaced "God" with "Man" per him when someone asked if he was an athiest why was he always talking about church.



Sounds like a Humanist group to me.

You know there's different groups who express atheism, like there's different groups of people who have faith in God and Jesus Christ (from the Branch Davidians, 7th Day Adventists to the Methodists and Lutherans and Catholics).

There's odd-balls and weird behaviour regardless of their core beliefs.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
Face
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Face
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November 27th, 2011 at 4:57:54 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

You know what I kinda of agree with Face in that Christmas gets so overplayed that we lose the exciting anticipation for it and then immediately aftrwards it is gone in a flash, what a let down! I think we should hold off on the carols, music, and decorations till at least Dec. 17th and then also extend the music and fun after Christmas day for at least a week or two.



Amen to that! If I may ask further, the above sounds very neutral, as in it could have been made by anybody who celebrates Xmas, be they Christian, Catholic, Jewish, non believer, whatever. Do you, as a man of God , take offense to todays Xmas? I ask because in my own cultural celebration, the focus is on the culture. Nowadays commerce is accepted as a part of it, in some cases encouraged, but it absolutely is a distant second and must follow certain customs. Commerce that flies in the face of the culture is severely frowned upon. The celebration of the culture is ultimate, in other words. Does it bother you (or any believer) that Xmas is overwhelmingly commercial today?


Quote: thecesspit

Sounds like a Humanist group to me.



The Human Fund. Money...for People. ;)
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AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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November 27th, 2011 at 6:34:12 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit





Sounds like a Humanist group to me.



"Unitarian" was what he called it IIRC. I don't know if that is some large group or some local offshoot of something else. The guy said on day one he was an athiest and communist, so not as he pretended to be what he was not. Back then I didn't challengs profs in class. But two years later another lefty, not a communist but more of an envrionmental-legalize dope prof, seemed to enjoy having me go head to head in class. I will always remember the day he said he had some subject to discuss, points at me before he read it, and says (polite but challenging), "I'm, callling on you first so be prepared." Today both would probably offer me a B to just not show up for class.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
boymimbo
boymimbo
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November 28th, 2011 at 8:03:59 AM permalink
I can understand the Christmas theme coming in just after American Thanksgiving. For my family, the holiday season coincides with the trees and the Christmas lights, all of which are taken care of on the weekend two weeks before Christmas, which means the tree is procured and put up on the 10th; the lights go up a week earlier on a nice weather day. The tree comes down on the day after New Years day and the lights go down the week after.

However, I've seen Christmas decorations for the first time go up on my block two weeks ago... just too early. The local station started playing Christmas music three weeks ago and others are now following suit. By the time Christmas actually comes, if I'm not careful, I'm sick of it. TV stations started playing Christmas movies already... they get stored on the DVR and will be played the week of Christmas. It just dilutes the meaningful holiday.

As for the separation of Church and State, the Constitution goes out of its way to take any reference to religion out of it, and in fact, in its first Amendment, makes a statement that essentially allows for freedom of religion... this in a document that is over 200 years old in an age where practically everyone who signed the document was a practicing Christian. It's amazing really.

I agree that government dollars should not be spent on Christmas decorations and I would say that it will only be a matter of time before religion will be taken out of all things that are government related, including schools, government buildings, and government institutions. That should not prevent however, an employee from putting up decorations in his cubicle or a staff Christmas party (off hours or during lunch), provided that the opportunity is not taken away from other employees (a Festivus Pole, a Menorah, Kwanzaa candles, etc) to do the same thing. As long as the rules are the same for everybody, it should make sense. But to put out public Christmas decorations inside a government building nowadays is just inviting lawsuits.
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thecesspit
thecesspit
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November 29th, 2011 at 9:44:26 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

"Unitarian" was what he called it IIRC. I don't know if that is some large group or some local offshoot of something else.



The Unitarian's are an odd/interesting group... they believe in enabling a spiritual awakening and a search for truth. Members may or may not be christian, atheist, pagan, polytheist and so on. It's more about a congregation of people examining and searching for some sort of spiritual life, truth and meaning, which may involve the Christian God, a inate "God", a deist God, a internalized God, or a Humanist or Atheist view. Or any other view.

I guess each church of Unitarianism is different... it all grew out of a divergence of Protestant Christian faith back in the day. I think the Unitarian's tend to be politically liberal, egalitarian and concerned with human rights and freedoms.

I always got the Unitarian and United Reform Church mixed up.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
Doc
Doc
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November 29th, 2011 at 11:58:12 AM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

I guess each church of Unitarianism is different...


I'm certainly not an authority on this topic, but it is my understanding is that they don't even agree on whether they are properly called a "church". I'm not sure whether that uncertainty applies to their organization or to the physical facility. Perhaps some member here could come out of the closet about being a Unitarian and educate some of us.
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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November 29th, 2011 at 4:35:20 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

The Unitarian's are an odd/interesting group.



Then thuis guy was in the right place. 20+ years later a guy I know who said he had the same guy remembered him like yesterday.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others

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