NicksGamingStuff
NicksGamingStuff
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September 11th, 2011 at 3:18:25 AM permalink
It is not my intention to be insensitive, I agree the massacre on 9/11/2001 was one of the most tragic events in a very long time, especially for the history of the united states. I am writing to open a discussion on some of the conspiracy theories that have been popping up on the internet. I have read that the ways the towers fell were more demolition style, and that jet fuel could not have melted the steel. I do not necessarily believe these things, yet I do believe it is somewhat plausible. I think it is very short sighted to dismiss these ideas with the idea that our country could never do such a thing, or the idea that a person who believes the us was involved is not patriotic. What I personally feel is that more than what the general public knows about happened on that day. It does no good to discover that truth, it won't bring back the lives that were lost. I do not fully understand how a war with Iraq is fighting terrorism when most of the terrorists that day were from Saudi Arabia and other countries. When I begin to think about all these conspiracy theories it reminds me of that old tv show The X Files, and how they would say "the truth is out there". Often the truth was something people are better off not knowing (the old expression "You want the truth, you can't handle the truth". In memory of the tragic event 10 years ago it is my hope that more people will seek to become heroes such as police and firefighters, and try to do "good" in their communities. I believe anything is possible in life, and when the terrorist attacks happened I reflected upon the differences of being at the airports in the US and the airports in Europe. I was in England & Paris in March of 2001 and there were militia walking around with AK looking guns patrolling the airport. The subway stations did not have garbage cans, they were in a heightened state of security. Here in the US anyone could walk into the airport go through the "security" (back then private contracted companies) and it was a very lax process. I remember people would try to sell trinkets to passengers and anyone could get near the boarding area. It seemed that 9/11 woke up the American population that even in the US something terrible could happen. It is just a shame that the relaxed security procedures had to come at such a high price.
Tiltpoul
Tiltpoul
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September 11th, 2011 at 4:50:13 AM permalink
I don't think anybody who lived on that day will ever forget where they were when they found out about it. I was living in Peoria, IL, and a roommate woke me up after a very late night to tell me "We were being bombed." Of course I turned on the TV and went on the internet. I remember crying on the phone with my parents...

However, Nick, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND that you watch a History Channel special about the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories. It really goes in depth to debunk most of the claims that you will find on the internet. Your post turned into a nice tribute, but for a minute I was about to really lambast you for usually being a very intelligent poster. I'm sure they'll be showing it today and if not today, they'll hit on it sometime this week. For example, about the demolition and jet fuel claim, they say that jet fuel DOES have the ability to melt steel, but that it wasn't just that. It's been a while since I've seen it, but you really should watch it.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
ItsCalledSoccer
ItsCalledSoccer
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September 11th, 2011 at 10:50:46 AM permalink
Coincidentally, about the same time when the jet-fuel-can't melt-steel theory was prominent, there was a visible accident under an overpass in (I think) California where a fuel truck exploded. The bridge's beams were structurally compromised as a result of the heat from the blaze, and the bridge had to be condemned.

That's not quite the same thing as a building collapsing, but consider the following ...

1) the heat from the fire in the building had nowhere to "go," meaning, it built up. The truck's heat had somewhere to "go."
2) there was considerably more fuel in the planes than in the truck, so it lasted longer. I think the fire from the collapse was finally put out, like, 17 days after they fell.
3) the beams compromised on the bridge were considerably stronger than the pre-fab metal joists supporting the floor plates in the tower.

If you're in a big-box store like Home Depot or whatever, look up and you'll see pre-fab metal joists similar to the ones used in the WTC. Compare those joists to the big metal (or concrete) beams under an overpass. Big difference in size and strength.

The joists in the WTC were meant only to transfer floor loads to the structural columns, which were placed throughout the building and were part of its famous exterior. Essentially, the WTC was a structural "tube," one of the stronger and more efficient structural techniques (if not a little unsightly).

You will recall that, when the buildings collapsed, they "pancaked" rather than "tipped over." This means that the fire caused floor plate joists to fail, then they fell down on the one below, caused them to fail, and that was that. If the "tube" had failed, you would have expected it to "tip over." But that's not what happened.

It also explains why the tower hit second fell first. It was hit lower; there was more weight above the impact zone in the columns, and I think it affected more floors. But the mechanism was the same "pancake-ing."

From an engineering standpoint, the fact that the buildings stood as long as they did was nothing short of miraculous. I think that, at that time of a normal workday, about 50,000 people are expected to be in the structures. The length of time allowed all but about 2,600 to get out. When you consider that about 150 were on the planes and about 350 were heroes who ran into the building, that leaves about 2,100 of 50,000 that died.

It's 2,100 too many, but still less than 5% of the people who were on site at 8:46 AM.
NicksGamingStuff
NicksGamingStuff
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September 11th, 2011 at 3:48:09 PM permalink
What does everyone think of the bulk of rescuers not being allowed to visit the memorial due to the "lack" of room?
Face
Administrator
Face
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September 11th, 2011 at 4:10:34 PM permalink
I think a lot of today is horseshit (not to be crude, just a little emotional) with Nick's point being the biggest slight ever. Name me ONE person in the thousands there who is more important than the men and women who risked their lives that day. Give me ONE name, and I'll STFU. The people who were there first, who were there longest, who lost life in the first moments and who suffer to this day because of their refusal to leave and subsequent extended exposure to contaminants...oh, those guys? Err, stand in back, there's no room for you here. Fuck that, and fuck whoever's idea that was. Again, pardon the crudeness, but there are no other words for it.

And...it's still a hole. That bothers me for reasons I probably don't need to mention.
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Nareed
Nareed
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September 12th, 2011 at 8:09:39 AM permalink
Quote: NicksGamingStuff

I think it is very short sighted to dismiss these ideas with the idea that our country could never do such a thing, or the idea that a person who believes the us was involved is not patriotic.



If the government was in fact not involved, then it is unpatriotic to spread rumors and innuendo suggesting it was. the reason is that such suggestions undermine the government's ability ot fight the enemy.

Quote:

I do not fully understand how a war with Iraq is fighting terrorism when most of the terrorists that day were from Saudi Arabia and other countries.



Overreaction.

It doesn't matter whre the particular terrorists came from, but rather where and when they recived, training, financing, orders and support. All that came from Al Qaida, who were aided and abetted by the Taliban in Afghanistan. You will recall that's where US and NATO forces first directed their efforts.

Looking back on it, invading Iraq was a mistake. There seemed good reasons to do so, like Saddam's support of terrorists and terrorist groups, and his possesion of chemiacal weapons. Imagine what Al Qaida or a similar group could so with easy access to Sarin and Mustard Gas. Except such reasons applied more strongly yet to Iran and Syria. The mistake lay in Bush's aim, not in his intentions. The idea was to prevent other states from harboring and suporting terrorists, and using them to further their intersts. Iraq had the capability to do that, surely, but Iran was actively doing it and still does.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
thecesspit
thecesspit
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September 12th, 2011 at 9:25:47 AM permalink
I don't need to look back at Iraq as a mistake. It was a mistake at the time, based on the reasons that Bush and Blair were giving. It was not a terrorist safe haven (Sadam was secular despot and wanted to desperately keep any religious groups out of the country, so Al Qaeda support would have been at double arms length at best), there was no convincing reports of WMD's and the removal of the state didn't not improve living conditions for the local populace. Given the Arab Spring Revolts we've seen recently... Sadam's time was coming anyways.

Afghanistan was a good response to the outrages of that day, and I kind of feel concentrating on that at the Pakistan borders should have been Bush's main focus, not finishing a job his Daddy didn't.

----

The reason most of the 9-11 truthers are dismissed are that they have not a single claim that hasn't be refuted and rebutted and done over. It's a ugly thing to suggest that was a conspiracy when there was none. Instead there was a bunch of scumbags who decided flying passenger planes into a civilian made any sort of point apart from dehumanizing everyone and causing divisions in the world.

The response 10 years on to the first responders and those needing insurance and health care is sickening. You have to question what goal people are serving when the firefighters are sidelined at the memorial. Everyone else should be standing back and letting such remembrance be for those people who were there that day at the front lines.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
heather
heather
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September 12th, 2011 at 10:42:42 AM permalink
Quote: NicksGamingStuff

I have read that the ways the towers fell were more demolition style, and that jet fuel could not have melted the steel.



The steel did not have to melt. I saw a nice essay on the subject by a structural engineer several years back.

I've read a little bit of the 9/11 conspiracy stuff. They start out asking reasonable enough questions that have never been adequately addressed (Were the Pentagon and WTC not restricted airspace? What's up with the old interviews with people saying that there existed permanent shoot-down orders for that airspace? Why did administration and military officials insist that they never contemplated such a scenario, when Library of Congress reports show exactly such a scenario suggested as a hypothetical possibility as early as 1999?), but then they move into absolutely lunatic territory claiming that the President and other officials were actually "reptilian aliens". They'd be a lot easier to take seriously if they hadn't insisted upon dragging the sci-fi stuff in. I'll die a happy woman if I never hear the phrase "alien shapeshifter" again.
NicksGamingStuff
NicksGamingStuff
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September 12th, 2011 at 11:58:45 AM permalink
I was not suggesting I believe the theories, I was just sharing some of the ones I have read. I have actually heard a theory about the reptilian alien, something along the lines that many of the major leaders of the world are descendants of king albert, and some other crazy theory that all the major decisions of the world are made by a small group of people, I think it is something called a round table or something like that. Fiction can be fun sometimes, I always enjoy hearing new ideas, because I truly believe anything is possible in life: With that I am on to my next project of finding a mathematical formula to predict the next series of cards in baccarat, I will look deep into the number pi like the guy did in that one movie to find a pattern in the stock market.
Nareed
Nareed
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September 12th, 2011 at 2:07:40 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

I don't need to look back at Iraq as a mistake. It was a mistake at the time, based on the reasons that Bush and Blair were giving. It was not a terrorist safe haven (Sadam was secular despot and wanted to desperately keep any religious groups out of the country, so Al Qaeda support would have been at double arms length at best), there was no convincing reports of WMD's



Saddam supported teror groups in the past, and at the time even ahnded out rewards to the families of Palestinian homicide bombers. That's a big deal, but not as big sa Iran supporting Hizbullah and Hamma, in bids to, as it turns out successfully, control Lebanon and the Palestinian Authority.

As to chemical weapons, he had several the UN had tagged and left in place. This was known. He also amde every effort to appear to ahve more. You may recall Saddam prevented UN inspectors from going to several facilities. If someone is acting as though he's hiding something, you must assume he has something to hide. BUt again that's not as bad as Iran developing nuclear weapons.

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and the removal of the state didn't not improve living conditions for the local populace.



I know I'll come accross as cruel for sayign this, but that's not necessarily a relevant aspect of war.

Quote:

Given the Arab Spring Revolts we've seen recently... Sadam's time was coming anyways.



No way to tell that ten years ago.

Quote:

Afghanistan was a good response to the outrages of that day, and I kind of feel concentrating on that at the Pakistan borders should have been Bush's main focus, not finishing a job his Daddy didn't.



You can look at it that way if you like. But you should acknowledge most Democrats in congress authorized the war.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal

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