rxwine
rxwine
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
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June 28th, 2010 at 6:28:44 PM permalink
There's been a "do you trust Indian casinos" thread in VPfree. But, I don't believe they allow discussion outside strict gaming questions.

Anywho, should casinos be judged purely by customers trying to figure out if they are being treated fairly, or do we need some independent authority, government or otherwise looking over their shoulder?

And if you feel casinos can't be trusted to run themselves, why or why not would you trust a billion dollar financial industry to operate in the dark? Or for that matter, any other pertinent area of commericial interest of great import?

I won't argue that the government doesn't fall down on the job. Obviously it does.


Are there other options? Who knows, maybe the IRS would be more efficient run entirely by a private entity.(s)
Quasimodo? Does that name ring a bell?
Birdgang
Birdgang
Joined: Aug 4, 2013
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August 4th, 2013 at 5:34:24 PM permalink
I like this topic, it's a shame I gotta necromance it.

If we're at the point of privatizing the IRS, chances are the IRS serves little useful purpose, except to the state. Not to it's citizens.

I think casinos, and any other industry that deals with money directly rather than a commodity or product, needs strict oversight. Someone to ensure proper amounts of funds, games are legit, honoring of debts, punitive actions for ignoring protocols, etc. I would never play in a casino left to it's own devices*, the same way I would never put money into a bank if it's FDIC insured.

*I would make exceptions for poker rooms, though, since the money one wins doesn't have to travel far to be exchanged.
Doc
Doc
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August 4th, 2013 at 8:20:09 PM permalink
Quote: Birdgang

... I would never put money into a bank if it's FDIC insured.


Small but crucial typo?
Birdgang
Birdgang
Joined: Aug 4, 2013
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August 5th, 2013 at 9:39:29 AM permalink
Quote: Doc

Small but crucial typo?



Whoops. I forgot the word "not". I do that a lot.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
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August 11th, 2014 at 8:51:11 PM permalink
Quote: Birdgang

Whoops. I forgot the word "not". I do that a lot.



I think the Indian Casino stuff is more related to a lack of any oversight as being suspicious.
We know if you want to sell slot machines you can sell a variety of chips for it.
We know any major dealer will want to comply with Nevada regulations.
We assume that Indian Casinos therefore have chips no worse than the least chip Nevada allows in it.
The trouble is we also know that there are no reports, no audits, .... therefore no real trust.

We look at our frauds and mortgage standards and we look at the distant drummers who warned us.

Some people at Enron got out early enough to actually have profited handsomely. We look ....... but we look with suspicion and distrust of their claims of innocence. We look at some of the people who hesitated and sought advice but went ahead anyway and had to face jail terms.

Its a different world now and that difference tends to smear everyone. Old line brokerage firms were bought up because their reputations could be monetized and withdrawn. So what is the value of ethics now? Not much.

Do we distrust the Evil Empire? Sure... its like the leaning tower of Pisa. Everyone takes bets on when it will fall.
Do we dislike their business practices. Sure
Yet the stock still trades and some are long and some are short and who knows what the future will bring.

Enron was a competitive place but part of that was smokescreen. How much of Evil Empire is smokescreen?

I think its a general distrust. We don't trust wall street and CPAs anymore. We don't trust anything but we trust our own ability to split tens and flip aces into a hat while we quaff beer. Its just about all we have left to trust in.

Its sort of the skilled coach maker when the Model T assembly line came along .... no one cares about skills or workmanship, they care about "moving product". Quality means nothing. More and more we are realizing that it never has.
DRich
DRich
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August 12th, 2014 at 9:27:52 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

I think the Indian Casino stuff is more related to a lack of any oversight as being suspicious.
We know if you want to sell slot machines you can sell a variety of chips for it.
We know any major dealer will want to comply with Nevada regulations.
We assume that Indian Casinos therefore have chips no worse than the least chip Nevada allows in it.
The trouble is we also know that there are no reports, no audits, .... therefore no real trust.



The slot and poker machine used at Indian casinos are tested by the same groups that test for Nevada and most worldwide jurisdictions. In 99.9% of the time I will trust the slots to be fair. The biggest issue for me is any dispute resolution. The tribe controls the whole process and no outside agency can really help.
Living longer does not always infer +EV
Gandler
Gandler
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August 13th, 2014 at 6:00:52 AM permalink
I think that casinos would be pretty trustworthy on their own. They already make a good profit margin with "fair" games, there is no need to risk bad publicity by rigging games or increasing the house edge.

I don't think strict regulations would be needed, there is a reason many casinos have slot payback well over what they are required to, it allows good publicity and they still make a lot.

If all regulations disappeared there would probably be some sketchy casinos that pop up, but they would die out quickly when people realize how bad of a deal they are, casinos like all businesses make money by satisfying customers, and customers won't deal with bad service or unfair rules especially when there would be plenty of competition. The free market is always the best regulator.
Dieter
Dieter
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August 13th, 2014 at 9:22:50 AM permalink
Quote: Gandler

customers won't deal with bad service or unfair rules especially when there would be plenty of competition. The free market is always the best regulator.



The market isn't free. Gambling is allowed either because the state licenses the casino, or the tribe has sovereignty where they open the casino. Tribes don't have sovereignty on every patch of land they own, so they can't just buy an empty lot on the other side of town and open up a casino.

Quote: Canada Bill Jones

I know it's crooked, but it's the only game in town.



I keep hearing reports of one of the tribal casinos having to pay penalties, because their slot payouts are less than the minimum agreed to in the gaming compact. Of course, their hold is improved by far more than the penalties, so they don't really seem to care. Not having any competition within about a 2 hour drive, they're enjoying their captive audience.

Quote: Gandler

I think that casinos would be pretty trustworthy on their own.



... Then there should be no problems when they're routinely audited by a regulator.
May the cards fall in your favor.
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
Joined: Jan 26, 2012
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August 13th, 2014 at 1:26:39 PM permalink
Trust but verify. Can't have any trust without the casino knowing their ass is grass if they do wrong. The problem even then is dependence of the state regulating them and the conflict of interest. If they take the license, the state suffers too. Casinos have more power in hawk than without debt too. They only have the bills to lose if they get punished besides operating profit. I can't really ever agree casinos are heavily regulated knowing what is known.
In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is the care taker. Hold my beer.
Gandler
Gandler
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August 13th, 2014 at 1:51:31 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

The market isn't free. Gambling is allowed either because the state licenses the casino, or the tribe has sovereignty where they open the casino. Tribes don't have sovereignty on every patch of land they own, so they can't just buy an empty lot on the other side of town and open up a casino.



I keep hearing reports of one of the tribal casinos having to pay penalties, because their slot payouts are less than the minimum agreed to in the gaming compact. Of course, their hold is improved by far more than the penalties, so they don't really seem to care. Not having any competition within about a 2 hour drive, they're enjoying their captive audience.



... Then there should be no problems when they're routinely audited by a regulator.



Of course, but the question was asking what it would be like if regulations disapreared. My point was that not much would change (except perhaps be more lenient letting under 21year Olds "sneak" in to lose some cash on slot machines, then again from my experience most Native American casinos allow under 21s anyway, I think as low as 18).

But as far as the actual games, I don't think the rules would get any worse. Gamblers, spend a lot of time deciding where to lose their money, and is often based on the level of the rules and comps. So Casinos that offer good rules, good comps, will be much more successful over casinos that try to skim every penny from everyone. So there would be no incentive to rip people off or rig anything.

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