The Mentalist Live

Quote: EvenBob

The Amazing Randi is still around and is still waiting to give away the million dollar prize to anybody who can prove their abilities. He's not worried.

The quote above referred to the Mentalist show here in Vegas. You obviously misunderstand what the performer is all about. He doesn't claim any psychic ability, he can just read people, like a good poker player. For example he will pick an audience member and say, "Pick any city in America, and just keep it in your head until I return." He does other stuff for 10 minutes, returns and says, "You picked Spokane, Washington," and he right, coincidentally about 90% of the time. That would not qualify for the Amazing Randi's prize, because it isn't supernatural.

See my own review of the show.

Quote: Wizard

That would not qualify for the Amazing Randi's prize, because it isn't supernatural.

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Sounds supernatural to me.

Actually the mentalist show as described could be for real or a cheat-probably a combo of both.

Just a quick analysis without havin seen the show--he leaves for 10 minutes and then answers what the person was thinking--lots of time to figure what was on a persons mind.

1) analysis of their clothing and accent--since the mentalist suggests thinking of a city, he is guessing most people will think of one familiar to them.

2) time to analyse what a casino might have on the person--if they are staying there or have used their players cards will give hints. This may not be so far-fetched if the casino is in on the gimmick. Are you requested for info or asked for your players card before entry? At Universal studios, E.T. says your name on the way out of his ride. He gets the info programmed in when you enter the ride and you give your name for your "Flight Pass". Most people are shocked E.T. had their personal names to speak.

3) Since anyone can lie about what they are thinking, I would assume he has created some method of proving to the audience he has read a mind. But if something is written down, then that leads itself to a cheat. If its all done without writing(on people's good honor), the whole act lends itself well to fraud. Check out the movie "Invincible" with Tim Roth and you get an idea how it can be done.

I saw the show at the Rampart about five years ago, and still think about it often. I'd like to go again sometime, and hopefully he will choose to use me. He fully admits he looks for tells, and gives the audience subtle suggestions.

At one point he addressed the theory that he gets data via player cards used to obtain the tickets. He flatly denied he does that. He never flatly denied using audience plants, which disturbs me a bit. However, he seems to take his act very seriously, and using plants would make it just sooooooo easy.

Some of the show is done with writing, as I recall. There is a very amazing phone book trick, which I think involves multiple people writing down numbers, and he would have to get them all right for the trick to work.

Well, he's entitled to his secrets especially if he admits they are tricks and not something supernatural.

Tricks imply anyone can learn them but they are trade secrets for his show. Layman always try to figure out magician tricks but we never care about the secret formula for Coke-a-cola. But they are both trade secrets to be protected.

Whatever the secret, we will all go 'Ahhh" when and if it is ever exposed.

Quote: darkoz

Tricks imply anyone can learn them but they are trade secrets for his show. Layman always try to figure out magician tricks but we never care about the secret formula for Coke-a-cola. But they are both trade secrets to be protected.

Then why didn't anybody sue the Secret of Magic Revealed Show? While many of the tricks on that show were old standards, some were fairly new, that other magicians worked hard on, and based much of their act upon. While I'm not a lawyer, I don't think that a magic trick secret is legally protected.

If this thread seems to have an abrupt beginning, it is because it is a spin-off of the Newcomb Problem thread.

Quote: Wizard

I don't think that a magic trick secret is legally protected.

Things like magic tricks and gambling systems can't be copyrighted or trademarked or patented, so they can't be protected.

Quote: EvenBob

Things like magic tricks and gambling systems can't be copyrighted or trademarked or patented, so they can't be protected.

I agree.

I'm not an attorney either, but the difference legally is most likely usage.

It is not illegal to show how a magic trick is done if one can figure it out, nor would it be illegal to expose the secret formula and preparation for coke-a-cola if one were able to correctly determine it(without stealing either one.) Most journalists would have a difficult time not exposing such secrets if they could figure them out on their own.

It would only be illegal to use the coke formula to actually create and market your own bootleg coke.

If a magician has created a particular trick that he can show is completely his own I do not see why that would not fall under intellectual property concerns. Again, he should be able to sue for people utilising the trick without his permission although not for the actual exposure of the trick.

Any magicians on this board? If a magician comes up with his own trick, can he send directions for it to LOC for copyright? Not sure why he couldn't once he can commit the material to paper.

Quote: darkoz

I do not see why that would not fall under intellectual property concerns

This has been discussed to death on other forums. Gambling systems, recipes, magic tricks, popular sayings, and many other things are too vague to be protected. Basically, you can't protect a “procedure, process, [or] system” unless the conditions are exceptional. Johnny Carson had his trademark golf swing when he came out on his show, but he couldn't legally trademark it.

"Basically, you can't protect a “procedure, process, [or] system” unless the conditions are exceptional. Johnny Carson had his trademark golf swing when he came out on his show, but he couldn't legally trademark it."

I'd hardly compare a golf swing to recipe's. And obviously you cannot protect a popular saying, because it is already popular.

Obviously you can trademark recipe's or no one would write cookbooks. Jerry Seinfelds wife just had a lawsuit over copyright infringement due to her cookbook and the similarity to the plaintiffs recipe's.

And Netflix has claimed Blockbuster copied their process/procedure for mailing DVD's in special packets so process and procedure can be copyrighted or trademarked as well.


From Legalzoom: http://www.legalzoom.com/intellectual-property-rights/patents/why-is-netflix-suing-blockbuster
Patenting a Business Method

The lawsuit begs the question: Can a company patent a business method? The courts have proven that if the method is unique enough, a company can obtain a patent, particularly in high-tech areas. In 1999, Coolsavings.com and SuperMarktetsOnline.com got into a dispute similar to the Netflix-Blockbuster controversy. Both are services that offer grocery coupons online. At each site, costumers can go online, choose coupons, print and use them at local retailers. Coolsavings.com thought the idea was so great, it got a patent. When SuperMarketsOnline.com set up shop, Coolsavings sued. The federal district court upheld Coolsavings' right to patent its business method.

Quote: darkoz

The courts have proven that if the method is unique enough, a company can obtain a patent,

I said in certain cases, a system or method can be protected. Recipe BOOKS are different than single recipes. Coke and KFC, who have extremely deep pockets, have never been able to protect their recipes.

Quote: Wizard

Then why didn't anybody sue the Secret of Magic Revealed Show? While many of the tricks on that show were old standards, some were fairly new, that other magicians worked hard on, and based much of their act upon. While I'm not a lawyer, I don't think that a magic trick secret is legally protected.

I've worked with many illusionists including some who work regularly in Vegas. No, a "magic trick" cannot be trademarked or patented as such however, if someone creates an large scale illusion that utilizes equipment (Zig-Zag, Origami, ect...) then these pieces of equipment can be and in most cases are patented. The inventor will then sell the equipment to anyone who wants to cough up the purchase price (often in the $5,000 - $10,000 range for some major pieces) and the illusionist will then use the equipment to perform the illusion. The illusionist will sometimes rename their illusion for purposes of individuality but they have paid the inventor and patent holder for the ability to do so. The Metamorphosis is an example of an illusion that's gone through a number of changes over the years (method of escape, hinges, appearance) and has been performed for decades by many of the biggest names in the business... and just about everyone else who wants to break into the business.

This is the main difference between a "trick" and an illusion". The illusion requires special equipment whereas a trick simply requires sleight of hand.