Will the Revel Make it a Year as a Non-Smoking Casino?
Poll
 | 38 votes (79.16%) | ||
| | 10 votes (20.83%) |
48 members have voted
What do you think?
Quote: WizardI have a $100 bet with Bob Dancer that the Revel will go at least a year with an entirely non-smoking casino. Bob doesn't think they will make it that long.
What do you think?
Since many of their advance reservations are predicated on the nonsmoking theme, I think the transition period would be devastating.... Many more cancellations than new bookings. I am no expert, but I think your bet is sound.
On the one hand, they are opening at the right time for Atlantic City, so it will be easy to keep it non-smoking through September... after that, customers who like the joint will be back for that reason.
Then again, the slow season (October-February) could prove to be tough without allowing smoking.
Question about legality though; if a casino wants to go to smoking, could a potential employee sue for having a policy change? It sounds like Revel is throwing all caution to the wind on such a rule as they are making everybody audition for jobs every 4 years... but I think there could be some legal ramifications.
For that reason, I voted with the Wizard...
Quote: JohnzimboI recall the Silver City going non-smoking before it closed, but don't know how long that lasted
I think they went about three years. Does anyone remember if they went back to smoking, or closed as a non-smoking casino? That was the casino I played my first game of blackjack in (thanks to a $1 minimum).
I have a feeling that Revel's objection is not to the smoke, but to the smoker.
They want a young, hip, lively crowd. And that tends to exclude the fanny-packers, oxygen-tank-draggers, and smokers.
Quote: WizardI have a $100 bet with Bob Dancer that the Revel will go at least a year with an entirely non-smoking casino. Bob doesn't think they will make it that long.
What do you think?
Poeple like their fetishes. So it will probably last longer than a year.
However, i wonder what's meant by "entirely non-smoking." Does it mean smoking isn't allowed anywhere in the property or merely anywhere indoors in the property? If the latter, then a smoking area outdoors within a year isn't out of the question.
Quote: NareedHowever, i wonder what's meant by "entirely non-smoking."
That is a good point, and we should iron that out. In some of the casinos in the Los Angeles area casinos they will get around the no-smoking rule by putting tables in an atrium, cover the top, and put in lots of heat lamps. It is almost like being indoors. I'll try to suggest to Bob and the bet will be based on whether the majority of the casino is smoking or non-smoking.
Revel really needs to make this place hot, sexy, fun, entertaining, and the place to be.. if they arent going to cater to the gambling aspect of it. I am their target market.. and I wont be spending much time there uless it is an absolute blast and place to be.. Hot chicks, great concerts, great bars / events, pool bar, etc.. I will still never pay for a room and if the tables are crowded, I wont play.
They will restructure their finances once again over time... Im not sure of the current investment numbers post the write down from MS, but it is going to be really hard to show profits unless they are operating on an extremely low cost basis.
I know a waitress that will be working there.. Apparently the outfits are horrible and unflattering. Long black skirts and blouse top... UGH!! Who the flip was responsible for creating that outfit? Obviously an idiot!
Quote: Nareed... i wonder what's meant by "entirely non-smoking." Does it mean smoking isn't allowed anywhere in the property or merely anywhere indoors in the property? If the latter, then a smoking area outdoors within a year isn't out of the question.
From the other smoking-in-the-Revel poll thread:
Quote: WongboSmoking is prohibited in most outdoor spaces on the property with one exception: a small outdoor area strategically located behind the 45,000-square-foot nightclub.
“You have to go through the club to reach it,” said Kevin DeSanctis, Revel’s chief executive. “We didn’t want people walking through a lot of smokers to get in the door.”
Quote: WizardI'll try to suggest to Bob and the bet will be based on whether the majority of the casino is smoking or non-smoking.
Majority? Casino?
It is my understanding is that the entire RESORT will be smoke-free, and that includes all but one of the outdoor areas.
From posts on their Facebook page and on Tripadvisor, I have seen nothing that makes me want to play there and I hate smoke and smoking. I want to be rewarded for playing enough to move up in card levels and not stand in lines. the goal to go after the club people will help on Saturday nights, but what about Sunday- Thursday? This is not Vegas when people come for a week and go out every night. Harrahs does this with their pool in AC, and has 12 people in a room, puking and fights in the halls and a 3 year old Waterfront Tower that is a mess with broken furniture, stained carpets and more. They may buy $600 bottles of liquor, but they dont gamble and as you can see with the Cosmopolitan, they dont cover the mortgage.
In the end, the taxpayers of NJ will lose their investment here.
That said, with all my ranting, I do think they will make it the 1 year being non-smoking.
I read that they have an outdoor smoking area but you have to walk through the nightclub to get go it.Quote: NareedPoeple like their fetishes. So it will probably last longer than a year.
However, i wonder what's meant by "entirely non-smoking." Does it mean smoking isn't allowed anywhere in the property or merely anywhere indoors in the property? If the latter, then a smoking area outdoors within a year isn't out of the question.
Quote: s2dbakerI read that they have an outdoor smoking area but you have to walk through the nightclub to get go it.
From what I know of these things, that means you have to stand in line for two hours, beg to be allowed in, pay an outrageous cover charge, endure horrible loud noises and bad illumination, wave through crowds, and pay for some outrageously priced drinks before you can reach the area where you can light up.
Or you can step out the front door to the street.
Quote: WizardThat is a good point, and we should iron that out. In some of the casinos in the Los Angeles area casinos they will get around the no-smoking rule by putting tables in an atrium, cover the top, and put in lots of heat lamps. It is almost like being indoors. I'll try to suggest to Bob and the bet will be based on whether the majority of the casino is smoking or non-smoking.
I wrote an article about casino smoking bans about a year ago and have researched casino smoking bans extensively. Atlantic City city council has their own policy that is more strict than New Jersey's smoking ban. The state carved out an exemption for gambling establishments in the statewide smoking ban, but the city council restricts smoking to 25% or less of the casino floor. I do not recall that ever getting repealed. I Googled it, and found this article dated January 17, 2012, that says that law is still in effect:
Quote:Atlantic City’s casinos were exempted from the 2007 New Jersey Smoke-Free Air Act, which bans smoking in most public places in the state. An Atlantic City law, however, restricts smoking to only 25 percent of the casino floor. The city briefly banned smoking in casinos in 2008, but reverted to the 25 percent limit following warnings from the gaming industry that customers would take their business elsewhere.
This means that by law a majority of the casino cannot be smoking, making the "No Smoking Majority" a lock unless the law changes.
http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/communities/atlantic-city_pleasantville_brigantine/atlantic-city-s-revel-may-ban-smoking-from-casino-floors/article_ffdedfde-409e-11e1-9982-0019bb2963f4.html
is like allowing only thin people into your buffet. You're
doomed to failure. The very thing that makes people
compulsively feed the slots, is the same thing that makes
them smoke non stop. I hate smoking, but not allowing
them to do it in your casino is an experiment that is ill-fated
from the git go..
When the Borgata opened in late 2003, it cannibalized about 15% of the revenue from each of the other boardwalk properties (some more than others). Borgata continues to outperform every casino on the boardwalk. It's year over year revenue drop has been the least of all properties. The conclusion is that patrons want new and large resorts and are eschewing away from the legacy properties.
My prediction is that Revel will cannabilize other casinos (including Borgata) by a total of 15%. It will be very successful and wil sink 2 - 3 AC properties (Resorts and the two Trumps).
Revel will be in deep trouble when New York opens its full table games in and around the five boroughs.
Quote: Pokeraddictbut the city council restricts smoking to 25% or less of the casino floor. I do not recall that ever getting repealed. I Googled it, and found this article dated January 17, 2012, that says that law is still in effect:
I didn't know that. The last time I was in AC was in 2000 at the latest. Doesn't the smoking 25% get significantly more crowded than the other 75%?
Quote: EvenBobIt won't last 6 months. Having a totally non smoking casino
is like allowing only thin people into your buffet. You're
doomed to failure. The very thing that makes people
compulsively feed the slots, is the same thing that makes
them smoke non stop. I hate smoking, but not allowing
them to do it in your casino is an experiment that is ill-fated
from the git go..
I can't speak for other parts of the world, but the casinos and all the gambling clubs in Australia (we have local clubs and pubs in almost every town filled with pokies/slot machines by the truckloads) all do quite well. Very well, in fact. Yes, some of the big casinos have VIP (whale) room exemptions, but we have only about a dozen casinos yet 1000's of clubs and pubs, where a huge majority of the gambling profits are made.
Oh, sure, they all screamed blue murder and the end of the world as we knew it when they were forced to go non-smoking, but a few passive smoking lawsuits from their cancer-diagnosed, non-smoking employees changed their tune and they realised it was worth a smaller loss (if any*) in gambling patronage than the millions in compensation payouts. And the gamblers still came, even if they had to step outside for a smoke.
* It's not an ill-fated experiment at all. In fact, it works better than the initially-resistant clubs thought it would. Why? Because a new breed of customers patronised their business; the non-smoker that didn't want to come home stinking like a chimney just because they wanted to go out for the night. In fact, some clubs and restaurants went non-smoking ahead of the legal ban and they got a headstart on those customers and proved you didn't need to rely on the compulsive puffers.
Quote: mickpkI can't speak for other parts of the world, but the casinos and all the gambling clubs in Australia (we have local clubs and pubs in almost every town filled with pokies/slot machines by the truckloads) all do quite well.
If all casinos were non smoking here, they would
do well also. But if smokers have a choice, they'll always
choose the smoker casinos. Something like 70% of regular
slot players smoke, and thats where the casinos profit
comes from.
Study here
Quote: studyResults: We observed a total of 14 052 gamblers at the three sites, of which a total of 947 were smoking. We estimated the percentage of smokers at three gaming tourist centres in Nevada (Las Vegas, Reno/Sparks and Lake Tahoe). The percentage of smokers at Las Vegas (20.3% (95% CI 0.9)) and Reno/Sparks (21.5% (95% CI 1.2%)) did not significantly differ from the US population percentage of smokers (20.9% (95% CI 0.6%)) (p>0.05). However, at Lake Tahoe the percentage of smokers (16.4% (95% CI 1.8%)) was significantly lower than the published US population smoker percentage (p<0.0001). Mean percentage of smokers by location did not significantly differ (p = 0.43)
Conclusions: The results of this study suggest that the percentage of gamblers who smoke was less than or not different from the overall US percentage of a population who smoke. These findings provide additional evidence to refute the exemption to smoking bans for casinos based upon the supposition that a greater percentage of casino customers are smokers than the general population and therefore a smoking ban for casinos may result in an economic hardship.
The study did find that slot players smoke more than table gamers. Slot players had about a 25% smoking rate while table players was closer to 18%.
However, there is definitely a link between a gambling addiction and other addictions, including tobacco. A Melbourne study said that although 30% of gamblers smoke, they are lose 2.5x more money than non-smokers. Another study from the same country stated that problem gamblers have a 56% smoking rate.
I would argue then that problem gamblers (the 5% that contribute 30 - 50% of casino revenue) are much more likely to smoke, and this is precisely why casinos want smoking in casinos. It also explains why revenue goes down in casino disproportionately when a smoking ban goes into effect (Illinois, Niagara Falls), even though the floor traffic in the casino doesn't decrease in the same proportion. Of course the casinos won't admit this.
Quote: WizardI didn't know that. The last time I was in AC was in 2000 at the latest. Doesn't the smoking 25% get significantly more crowded than the other 75%?
They do not stringently enforce the 25% rule whatsoever. I visited all the A.C. Properties last May and saw no meaningful demarcation notices at all. So... No real difference in crowding around the casino floors that I could see.
Quote: boymimbo
However, there is definitely a link between a gambling addiction and other addictions, including tobacco. A Melbourne study said that although 30% of gamblers smoke, they are lose 2.5x more money than non-smokers. Another study from the same country stated that problem gamblers have a 56% smoking rate.
So 75% of slot revenue comes from nicotine stained fingers?
Quote: midwestgbThey do not stringently enforce the 25% rule whatsoever. I visited all the A.C. Properties last May and saw no meaningful demarcation notices at all. So... No real difference in crowding around the casino floors that I could see.
That is interesting. I thought the sections had to be physically separated. That was how the law read to me. Nevada was the same way when they had the now repealed smoking ban in bars that served food. Everyone just ignored it. Funny how smoking bans in some states get ignored, while in other states the enforcement is very strict.
Quote: boymimboMy prediction is that Revel will cannabilize other casinos (including Borgata) by a total of 15%. It will be very successful and wil sink 2 - 3 AC properties (Resorts and the two Trumps).
Revel will be in deep trouble when New York opens its full table games in and around the five boroughs.
I agree with you that Revel will INITIALLY get 15% of the market. However, I think long term that's pretty ambitious, especially if they aren't going to implement a player-friendly player's club, then it's going to hurt them in the long-run. I don't think the club goers will be able to sustain the business, and the core comes from people who feel they are getting good value for the money.
I agree that it will sink 2-3 properties, but I disagree that Trump Taj is going anywhere. I do think Plaza will be adversely affected, Resorts and probably Golden Nugget will feel the direct pain, as well as Borgata. Showboat could be in trouble too, though I wouldn't be surprised if Caesars tries to find a buyer for the property sooner than later. ACH will be going down, but not because of Revel.
I think Showboat will be helped because of its proximity to Revel. Cheap bastards like myself will stay at Showboat so that I can play a bit and wander through Revel but I'll still gamble primarily at the host hotel.Quote: TiltpoulShowboat could be in trouble too, though I wouldn't be surprised if Caesars tries to find a buyer for the property sooner than later.
Quote: s2dbakerI think Showboat will be helped because of its proximity to Revel. Cheap bastards like myself will stay at Showboat so that I can play a bit and wander through Revel but I'll still gamble primarily at the host hotel.
If anybody BUT Caesars owned Showboat, I think you're absolutely right. However, Caesars gets greedy when it comes to hotel rooms and what not. While the room rates will be cheaper than Revel, it won't be as cheap as Trump and Resorts, meaning your business will ultimately go to those two properties. Resorts will probably undercut so much that it will hurt them financially.
Quote: midwestgbThey do not stringently enforce the 25% rule whatsoever. I visited all the A.C. Properties last May and saw no meaningful demarcation notices at all. So... No real difference in crowding around the casino floors that I could see.
I don't know what casinos you visited, but in the CZRs casinos there are signs posted everywhere. The confusing part is the way they are worded.
They don't use that slashed red circle. The signs either say Smoking PERMITTED or Smoking PROHIBITED.
Quote: EvenBobBut if smokers have a choice, they'll always
choose the smoker casinos.
Non smokers also have a choice and that's why I will be moving my play to the Revel.
I'm a Total Rewards member who barely achieves platinum level each year. I wouldn't stay in AC unless it's free (remember, cheap bastard). I don't think your analysis of CZR's room rates applies here. But I'll also concede that not everyone is me. Time will tell.Quote: TiltpoulIf anybody BUT Caesars owned Showboat, I think you're absolutely right. However, Caesars gets greedy when it comes to hotel rooms and what not. While the room rates will be cheaper than Revel, it won't be as cheap as Trump and Resorts, meaning your business will ultimately go to those two properties. Resorts will probably undercut so much that it will hurt them financially.
Quote: s2dbakerI think Showboat will be helped because of its proximity to Revel. Cheap bastards like myself will stay at Showboat so that I can play a bit and wander through Revel but I'll still gamble primarily at the host hotel.
I hear ya. I can stay free at Resorts anytime through my wife's offers. We may check out the Revel on April 2nd, but there's no way I'm paying $239 and up for their cheapest room.
She just texted me that she wants to go for the weekend of the grand opening. She then clarified that she meant the soft opening. I reminded her that it's on 4/2 - a Monday.
Still waiting on a reply, but it looks like I might be there for the ribbon cutting.....
Quote: s2dbakerI'm a Total Rewards member who barely achieves platinum level each year. I wouldn't stay in AC unless it's free (remember, cheap bastard). I don't think your analysis of CZR's room rates applies here. But I'll also concede that not everyone is me. Time will tell.
Resorts is sending out free rooms like they're going out of business... and they are I think. I played there ONCE! ONCE! in December, about 2 hours on Pai Gow Tiles, banking every other hand, with a bet of $25 (never any more than that). Since then, I could get comp tickets to nearly EVERY show, free offers ALL the time, and 1 or 2 nights A WEEK, EACH WEEK, WEEKENDS INCLUDED!!!
2 hours of play on Tiles gets me that... try that at Showboat and see if you can get free rooms... Even Taj has been sending me free midweek offers. I get them from the Caesars properties, but they are both limited and do not include weekends.
Quote: DJTeddyBearI haven't talked with my wife at lenght about Revel for a while now.
She just texted me that she wants to go for the weekend of the grand opening. She then clarified that she meant the soft opening. I reminded her that it's on 4/2 - a Monday.
Still waiting on a reply, but it looks like I might be there for the ribbon cutting.....
April 2nd will be a soft opening.
"There will be no ribbon cutting celebration or ceremonial first roll of the dice," said Revel spokeswoman Maureen Siman. The doors will open at sunrise which should be around 6:30 in Atlantic City. The big opening bash will be Memorial Day weekend with Beyonce performing three nights.
Quote: KeyserBy going smoke free the Revel will attract a wealthier clientele that can afford to gamble, dine in the fine restaurants, and visit the spas. They will also have to worry less about them treating the casino like a toilet, and basically trashing the property.
If that was true then every casino would go smoke free. Obviously that's not the case. If I can't smoke my cigar then you aren't getting my business unless it's an advantage play of course.
Unlike ANYWHERE else, Tiles is a standard game in Atlantic City. EVERY casino offers the game, most with at least 2-3 tables in an Asian room or area. This calls to question whether they will feature other Asian-popular games, like Baccarat (they'll almost HAVE to, right?) and Pai Gow Poker. Baccarat is known for being a smoky game, so it's hard to think the game will get much action in a non-smoking casino.
If they stick to their guns, then yes, the casino will remain smoke-free for more than a year, but as it's been discussed, I would have SIGNIFICANT doubt as to whether the casino will remain open for that time frame without a change in management. Paco, any breakdown of table games in AC like LV? I'd be curious to know how important Tiles, Baccarat and PGP are to the mix.
| Game | ACH | Ballys | Borgata | Caesars | Nugget | Harrahs | Resorts | Showboat | Trop | Plaza | Taj |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Blackjack | 35 | 65 | 78 | 59 | 22 | 75 | 40 | 41 | 54 | 36 | 68 |
| Craps | 5 | 8 | 14 | 14 | 4 | 9 | 5 | 5 | 9 | 3 | 12 |
| Roulette | 7 | 20 | 20 | 17 | 7 | 12 | 8 | 9 | 15 | 10 | 14 |
| Big Six | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | |
| Baccarat | 0 | 1 | 1 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 0 | ||||
| Mini Bac | 18 | 15 | 16 | 9 | 6 | 6 | 16 | 9 | 10 | 8 | 13 |
| Sic Bo | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | ||||||
| Pai Gow Poker | 2 | 5 | 6 | 6 | 1 | 3 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 2 |
| Pai Gow (Tiles) | 4 | 2 | 2 | 5 | 1 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | |
| Keno | 4 | 2 | |||||||||
| Carribbean Stud | 2 | 4 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | |||
| Let it Ride | 2 | 4 | 5 | 2 | 2 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 |
| Three Card | 4 | 15 | 15 | 11 | 4 | 14 | 4 | 9 | 8 | 2 | 6 |
| Casino War | 2 | ||||||||||
| Spanish 21 | 2 | 8 | 5 | 5 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 2 | 4 | 2 | 4 |
| Double Attack BJ | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | |||||
| Four Card | 2 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 2 |
| Texas Hold Em Bonus | 2 | 4 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 2 | |||
| Flop Poker | 1 | 4 | 1 | 3 | 1 | ||||||
| Ultimate Texas | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | ||||||
| Asia Poker | 2 | 2 | 2 | ||||||||
| Mississippi Stud | 1 | 2 | 1 | ||||||||
| Poker Room | 8 | 26 | 81 | 32 | 20 | 40 | 0 | 24 | 27 | 54 | |
| Total | 92 | 185 | 265 | 179 | 73 | 179 | 90 | 112 | 140 | 69 | 188 |
EZ Pai Gow licensed March 12, 2012 (way to go Pai Gow Dan!)
Nice compilation! Bookmarked for future reference...Quote: boymimboAC Games as of Februrary 29, 2012 -- source - Monthly Revenue report: Here
Quote: teddysNice compilation! Bookmarked for future reference...
Indeed. I think even Paco would be proud of that table.
Quote: WizardIndeed. I think even Paco would be proud of that table.
I gotta contribute once in a while. Revel states that they will operate with 2,400 slot machines and 160 table games, though I think they'll open with 100 games. I imagine that DJ might have a trip report in two weeks!
Quote: boymimboI imagine that DJ might have a trip report in two weeks!
Well, I DO have the itch, although it's tempered by a desire to avoid the opening day madness.
But it's up to the wife. She has the itch too...
