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billryan
billryan
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August 11th, 2020 at 2:12:45 AM permalink
Are taxes due when you win the money or when you get paid?
An extreme example- I win $20,000 at blackjack on a Thanksgiving 2021 trip, but take the chips home and cash them in on my next trip in late January 2022.
Do I owe the taxes for 2021 or 2022? The CTR would be dated in 2022.
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
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August 11th, 2020 at 2:45:05 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Are taxes due when you win the money or when you get paid?
An extreme example- I win $20,000 at blackjack on a Thanksgiving 2021 trip, but take the chips home and cash them in on my next trip in late January 2022.
Do I owe the taxes for 2021 or 2022? The CTR would be dated in 2022.



The CTR has nothing to do with your tax liability.

Your Thanksgiving win should be part of your quarterly report for that year. It doesn't matter when you take the chips home.
lilredrooster
lilredrooster
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August 11th, 2020 at 3:02:48 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Are taxes due when you win the money or when you get paid?
An extreme example- I win $20,000 at blackjack on a Thanksgiving 2021 trip, but take the chips home and cash them in on my next trip in late January 2022.
Do I owe the taxes for 2021 or 2022? The CTR would be dated in 2022.




Quote: AlanMendelson

The CTR has nothing to do with your tax liability.
Your Thanksgiving win should be part of your quarterly report for that year. It doesn't matter when you take the chips home.




I'm not so sure about that - there are exceptions but normally income refers to cash, not tokens -

there are many gray areas of the tax code re gambling

for example: if a player wins $4,000 at blackjack today, 8-11-2020, doesn't cash his chips and then loses it all back tomorrow -
is he supposed to declare a win on his taxes for 8/11?
I think technically the IRS might answer yes - but few would handle it that way
even if he did cash his chips few would handle the tax issue in this situation as requiring a declaration

and even though it may not be technically the proper way, I doubt the IRS would have any problem with it as long as any net gain for the year is declared
𝘱𝘢𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘰𝘵: 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘱𝘦𝘳𝘴𝘰𝘯 𝘸𝘩𝘰 𝘤𝘢𝘯 𝘩𝘰𝘭𝘭𝘦𝘳 𝘭𝘰𝘶𝘥𝘦𝘴𝘵 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩𝘰𝘶𝘵 𝘬𝘯𝘰𝘸𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘸𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘩𝘦 𝘪𝘴 𝘩𝘰𝘭𝘭𝘦𝘳𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘢𝘣𝘰𝘶𝘵............. ᴍᴀʀᴋ ᴛᴡᴀɪɴ
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
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August 11th, 2020 at 3:12:29 AM permalink
I'm really amazed at some of the questions raised here? I thought this forum had experienced gamblers?

Quote: lilredrooster



for example: if a player wins $4,000 at blackjack today, 8-11-2020, doesn't cash his chips and then loses it all back tomorrow -
is he supposed to declare a win on his taxes for 8/11?



Taxable gains and losses are reported quarterly, especially if you're a Schedule C professional. What's your net for the quarter? Your quarterly reports become your net for the tax year.

Do not confuse your quarterly net for the requirement of a daily log.
lilredrooster
lilredrooster
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August 11th, 2020 at 3:23:04 AM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

for example: if a player wins $4,000 at blackjack today, 8-11-2020, doesn't cash his chips and then loses it all back tomorrow -
is he supposed to declare a win on his taxes for 8/11?






Quote: AlanMendelson

I'm really amazed at some of the questions raised here? I thought this forum had experienced gamblers?



Taxable gains and losses are reported quarterly, especially if you're a Schedule C professional. What's your net for the quarter? Your quarterly reports become your net for the tax year.

Do not confuse your quarterly net for the requirement of a daily log.




I was referring to if that gambling activity constituted everything for the year and the quarter -

would it have to be reported?

I think the IRS would say yes - but most wouldn't report it at all - even if it had been converted to cash

and I think the IRS would not have any problem with that as long as there was no yearly net gain

so, in my mind it constitutes a gray area of the gambling code - since there would be no enforcement - as long as there was no W2G





and again, Bill's question referred to winning chips - not cash
chips are not the same as cash - they're tokens
Last edited by: lilredrooster on Aug 11, 2020
𝘱𝘢𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘰𝘵: 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘱𝘦𝘳𝘴𝘰𝘯 𝘸𝘩𝘰 𝘤𝘢𝘯 𝘩𝘰𝘭𝘭𝘦𝘳 𝘭𝘰𝘶𝘥𝘦𝘴𝘵 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩𝘰𝘶𝘵 𝘬𝘯𝘰𝘸𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘸𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘩𝘦 𝘪𝘴 𝘩𝘰𝘭𝘭𝘦𝘳𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘢𝘣𝘰𝘶𝘵............. ᴍᴀʀᴋ ᴛᴡᴀɪɴ
darkoz
darkoz
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August 11th, 2020 at 6:27:05 AM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

I was referring to if that gambling activity constituted everything for the year and the quarter -

would it have to be reported?

I think the IRS would say yes - but most wouldn't report it at all - even if it had been converted to cash

and I think the IRS would not have any problem with that as long as there was no yearly net gain

so, in my mind it constitutes a gray area of the gambling code - since there would be no enforcement - as long as there was no W2G





and again, Bill's question referred to winning chips - not cash
chips are not the same as cash - they're tokens



Just surmising but you don't pay taxes on unsold stock (dividends aside).

Chips are most definitely not considered legal currency and most casinos have verbiage that their chips may not be utilized off the premises for any type of monetary transactions

So I surmise chips are not counted towards income until they are cashed in
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
DRich
DRich
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August 11th, 2020 at 7:18:15 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Then never mind what I said. Take the cash and deal with the problems cash present... including depositing it in a bank and having to have a CTR report.



What type of a problem does having a CTR filed cause? Unless you are laundering money, I don't see a problem.
Living longer does not always infer +EV
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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Thanks for this post from:
RogerKintMinty
August 11th, 2020 at 7:23:32 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Really?

Do you really think that if you got so far as to get a check that they would stop payment on it?

At least say something realistic. Like the casino files bankruptcy before you get out the door and the check is no good. LOL

If the amount is large enough that you feel you might want to a check, then it's an amount that I don't want to take the chance with the casino. Being in the advantage play business for many years I have seen plenty of shenanigans from the casinos. If they're Brazen enough to go to someone's room and confiscate their legitimate winnings. If they're Brazen enough to backroom someone and confiscate all their money including non Casino winnings. If they're willing to send people letters telling them they want their money back after the fact. If they're willing to sue you after the fact. I could go on and on listing different Shenanigans casinos have pulled, but I'll stop there.

As an advantage player your best bet is to get the money in your hand and out of the casino.

SO, YES REALLY!
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
lilredrooster
lilredrooster
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August 11th, 2020 at 7:53:30 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Just surmising but you don't pay taxes on unsold stock (dividends aside).




that is not the same because a record of this goes to the IRS automatically from the broker

there is no record of a $4,000 blackjack win on one day and then a $4,000 loss on the next day - at least none submitted to the IRS by the casino

so, again, my point is that although you are technically obliged to report it, most wouldn't, and I don't believe the IRS cares as long as there is no net yearly gain

if there is a net gain of $4,000 you are obliged to report it and if you don't you have likely committed a crime if it was an intentional evasion, although the IRS would probably not charge you if they are aware of the win and can recover the taxes that are due

it is considered in a totally different way











if there is a W2G, this must be reported whether or not there is a net gain - if it's not reported it will cause the IRS to make an inquiry
Last edited by: lilredrooster on Aug 11, 2020
𝘱𝘢𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘰𝘵: 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘱𝘦𝘳𝘴𝘰𝘯 𝘸𝘩𝘰 𝘤𝘢𝘯 𝘩𝘰𝘭𝘭𝘦𝘳 𝘭𝘰𝘶𝘥𝘦𝘴𝘵 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩𝘰𝘶𝘵 𝘬𝘯𝘰𝘸𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘸𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘩𝘦 𝘪𝘴 𝘩𝘰𝘭𝘭𝘦𝘳𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘢𝘣𝘰𝘶𝘵............. ᴍᴀʀᴋ ᴛᴡᴀɪɴ
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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August 11th, 2020 at 8:26:02 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Then never mind what I said. Take the cash and deal with the problems cash present... including depositing it in a bank and having to have a CTR report.

Checks are so much easier with clean money. But if casinos are stopping you as you describe I guess you've got problems.

Good luck.

The problem is... the casinos are not too fond of Advantage Players. Oftentimes, they don't realize until after the fact what just happened(they got beat by Advantage Players).

Somewhere near Palm Springs a few years back during a promotion, not only did the casino refuse to pay the promotion bonuses, they actually refused to pay legitimate jackpots hit while Advantage Players were playing for the promotion bonus. I'm pretty sure dandruff covered it on his show and it may have went to the local news, I am not 100% sure about the local news part(from what I understand, the local news was contacted and interested in reporting on the matter however the issue may have been solved threatening the casino with local news coverage)
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

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