boymimbo
boymimbo
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
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March 2nd, 2019 at 12:21:57 AM permalink
Quote: Lovecomps

Ok, now I have to chime in about how much I resent those comments. I'm not a degenerate gambler but I like knowing that I'm valued downtown. I don't get a room, I get a nice suite without those stupid daily fees and a limo and full RFB for playing at the same levels that I'd play with on the strip- those same levels for which CET won't even give me the time of day for higher levels than your playing at!

Do you want to poke your head into other casinos for an hour or two- for a little variety- then I'd rather walk across a street rather than go 1/2 mile just to get on a bridge and walk the same 1/2 mile back the other way. If you want to see shows go ahead but I can take the deuce and still be there.

Looking for value and an establishment that treats you like the valued consumer that you are doesn't make you a degenate gambler!



The gambler who plays frequently enough will get strip deals that will pull them in. It won't be a good deal 'such as downtown but it will be room + credit + freeplay for some pretty low level play.

I will be downtown on Sunday and frankly I did not enjoy those casinos that much the last two times I was there. What I did see poking through the park MGM tonight is a lot of young people playing 6-5 blackjack. I just felt that GN and Binions was dark and depressing.

And I know what you mean about the distances, but to each their own. They are megaresorts designed to keep the weary on the property.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
RS
RS
Joined: Feb 11, 2014
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March 2nd, 2019 at 1:28:18 AM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

I think the point of the article is that slaughtering the sheep is not a good long term strategy for the wool industry. Gaming revenue as a whole is down. Visitor numbers overall are down. Short term profits can be made with side bets with huge house edge's, but there is a long term cost in lower visitor numbers since there are less winners, and short, losing gaming sessions are nothing to talk up your friends in Poughdunk about.


They're down compared to when? I don't have the stats, but seems like there are way more casinos outside of Vegas than there were years ago. Vegas isn't as much of a gambling destination as it used to be, because there's probably one pretty nearby where you live. Aside from Hawaii, Alaska, and probably parts of Texas or Utah, there's almost certainly going to be a casino within a few hour drive from you. I think the group of people who would be traveling to Vegas to gamble are now just gambling at their local casino. Plenty of these local casinos are mega resorts, too, offering just about everything that Vegas does, other than sports betting, clubs, and shows (even though this is all changing and that is starting to become a thing).


Quote: beachbumbabs

I think #3 has more merit than you're giving it. People are noticing that, where their $200 buy-in used to last them an hour, now they're lucky to play for 15 minutes. There have been many articles and conversations about how there's no longer a decent shot at winning.

When people would rather spend their $500 on a single bottle at a night club than playing with friends at a table, where they have free drinks, a seat, and a chance at the $500 not being gone at the end of the evening, at some level they've figured out they're suckers at the gaming table.

And $500 in a night is well beyond most gambler's means. But it's a drop in a Strip property's bucket, based on the table minimums and bad games they offer. Off-strip and DT properties have pointed out the difference on billboards and ads long enough that even the "idiot gambler" can see it. So they stay away, except to walk the Strip in huge numbers, and crowd places like Casino Royale (a dump IMO, but they do offer low minimums).

In whatever order, they blew up the cheap rooms, then raised the pricing on what's left, added the resort fees, started charging for parking, started metering the drink service, charging for lounge entry, removed snack buffets, got rid of cheap dining options, took away discretionary pit comps, raised table minimums, and shaved the game odds away from the player. It's a slow death spiral that's being actively rejected by most non-Strip places (notable exception AC, which SHOULD be serving as an object lesson to them as it dies).

I don't know why Stations or Boyd doesn't market even more actively to grab those players left behind. Or any of the other non mLife /non CET properties still on the Strip. I realize Wynn and Venetian think they don't need them, but the dozen or so others could really step it up in contrast. There's a huge volume market going under tapped, and an Old Vegas business model that worked for decades and can still work.


I agree with the table minimums to an extent, but not the bad games. I don't think anyone would be able to differentiate between 3:2 BJ and 6:5 BJ, 9/6 DDB and 9/5 or even 8/5 DDB, or some other other increased-HE game, at least for the amount of time someone would be playing in Vegas. It's variance.

Let's say someone plays 5 hours of VP at 400 hands per hour. That's 2,000 hands. If he plays $1 denom ($5/spin) on 9/6 DDB and another on 8/5 DDB, the guy playing 8/5 is going to get shorted about 44 times, totaling $220. That's less than a single (lowest paying) 4 of a kind. That's also assuming optimal play, which you know they aren't going to be doing.

One guy plays 3:2 BJ and another 6:5, each for 5 hours and we'll say 100 rounds per hour (probably fast, but whatever). $10 hands. You expect to get a BJ once in every about 21 hands, so he should get about 25 blackjacks. He'll get shorted $75 for the session. That's the difference of TWO hands where he doubled down and lost versus won ($80 net swing).


Obviously playing a 1:1 BJ w/ no double or split or 6/5 DDB is going to be noticeable compared to their "full pay" counterparts.



If you've been to any of the bars in Vegas, you'll see a bunch of degens playing VP or keno with terrible paytables. You'd be very lucky if you found 7/5 Bonus at a bar. Check out a grocery store or convenience store with machines. The odds are terrible but there are still people playing. Obviously people go to the bar not solely to gamble, but because of the ambience or whatever (friends, cute bartenders, it's their usual hangout spot, that sorta thing).



TLDR: Gamblers are not smart and don't think rationally, so don't assume they're smart and think rationally.
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Ayecarumba
Ayecarumba
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
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March 2nd, 2019 at 9:47:23 AM permalink
Quote: RS

They're down compared to when? I don't have the stats, but seems like there are way more casinos outside of Vegas than there were years ago. Vegas isn't as much of a gambling destination as it used to be, because there's probably one pretty nearby where you live. Aside from Hawaii, Alaska, and probably parts of Texas or Utah, there's almost certainly going to be a casino within a few hour drive from you. I think the group of people who would be traveling to Vegas to gamble are now just gambling at their local casino. Plenty of these local casinos are mega resorts, too, offering just about everything that Vegas does, other than sports betting, clubs, and shows (even though this is all changing and that is starting to become a thing)...



The UNLV Center for Gaming Research recently released the December 2018 data showing monthly Strip revenue from gaming down vs. year ago for the fourth straight year.

Agree that local options have hurt the Strip, but rather than fighting to win back the proletariat they court the bourgeois. Unfortunately, there aren't enough whales to go around for that to be a long term strategy.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
billryan
billryan
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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March 2nd, 2019 at 10:14:24 AM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

The UNLV Center for Gaming Research recently released the December 2018 data showing monthly Strip revenue from gaming down vs. year ago for the fourth straight year.

Agree that local options have hurt the Strip, but rather than fighting to win back the proletariat they court the bourgeois. Unfortunately, there aren't enough whales to go around for that to be a long term strategy.



I will wager the increase in door charges, liquor sales and dining dwarfs the loss of gambling revenue. Not to mention turning parking from a liability into a cash cow.
Gialmere
Gialmere
Joined: Nov 26, 2018
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March 2nd, 2019 at 11:31:37 AM permalink
While I agree with most of what the OP article says, let's be honest ... it's just a voice crying out in the wilderness. If gamblers (taken as a group) were smart enough to know the difference between a good and bad deal, or wise enough to seek the advice of those who did, then a site like this would have several million users reading through it and asking questions.
Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.
MaxPen
MaxPen
Joined: Feb 4, 2015
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Thanks for this post from:
Gialmere
March 2nd, 2019 at 11:52:29 AM permalink
Quote: Gialmere

While I agree with most of what the OP article says, let's be honest ... it's just a voice crying out in the wilderness. If gamblers (taken as a group) were smart enough to know the difference between a good and bad deal, or wise enough to seek the advice of those who did, then a site like this would have several million users reading through it and asking questions.



Need to take that a step further;

If gamblers (taken as a group) were smart enough to know the difference between a good and bad deal, or wise enough to seek the advice of those who did there would be no gamblers.
rainman
rainman
Joined: Mar 28, 2012
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Thanks for this post from:
MaxPen
March 2nd, 2019 at 2:13:31 PM permalink
Quote: MaxPen

Need to take that a step further;

If gamblers (taken as a group) were smart enough to know the difference between a good and bad deal, or wise enough to seek the advice of those who did there would be no gamblers.



I think many have and are wising up and their lack of participation contributes significantly to
the declining numbers. The ones that don't posses the capacity to wise up are succumbing
to the effects of negative reinforcement. Gambling games whole premise is to provide lots
of short term small wins to create positive reinforcement it's crucial to keep them playing
a loosing game. When the games get so tight they lose this effect and even those with
less capacity will grow tired of the constant bitter taste.

Macau is a big factor as well, However the big one has yet to come, but it's coming
and Vegas see's it coming the attempt to change the model tells me so. What many
see as Vegas making big errors I believe is a last ditch effort and an educated one
to survive the hydrogen bomb that's going to be dropped on it.
What is this bomb? "Internet gaming" Just like Marijuana the states never ending thirst
for revenue insures this.
MaxPen
MaxPen
Joined: Feb 4, 2015
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  • Posts: 3463
March 2nd, 2019 at 3:02:17 PM permalink
Quote: rainman

Quote: MaxPen

Need to take that a step further;

If gamblers (taken as a group) were smart enough to know the difference between a good and bad deal, or wise enough to seek the advice of those who did there would be no gamblers.



I think many have and are wising up and their lack of participation contributes significantly to
the declining numbers. The ones that don't posses the capacity to wise up are succumbing
to the effects of negative reinforcement. Gambling games whole premise is to provide lots
of short term small wins to create positive reinforcement it's crucial to keep them playing
a loosing game. When the games get so tight they lose this effect and even those with
less capacity will grow tired of the constant bitter taste.

Macau is a big factor as well, However the big one has yet to come, but it's coming
and Vegas see's it coming the attempt to change the model tells me so. What many
see as Vegas making big errors I believe is a last ditch effort and an educated one
to survive the hydrogen bomb that's going to be dropped on it.
What is this bomb? "Internet gaming" Just like Marijuana the states never ending thirst
for revenue insures this.



I often wonder how effective Benny Binion's business model would be today.
FCBLComish
FCBLComish
Joined: Apr 11, 2010
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March 2nd, 2019 at 9:06:41 PM permalink
You are very correct about the Strip Properties. They have continued to try to make an extra buck any way they can: Parking, Room Rates, Hotel Service Fees, Shaved odds on games.

My suggestion is to go to some of the local/independent casinos in town of which there are plenty. If you want to play Video Poker, check out VPFree2.com. They will show you where the best pay tables are (And NONE of them are on the Strip).

You will also find better deals on Table Games off the strip than on the strip. ($5 progressive bets vs $1 progressive bets for example, or good double deck 3:2 games vs crappy 6 deck 6:5 games)

Good luck!
Beware, I work for the dark side.... We have cookies
djatc
djatc
Joined: Jan 15, 2013
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March 2nd, 2019 at 9:41:50 PM permalink
It would be interesting to find out how much a person is worth per day in a casino, broken down by card level, age, ethnicity, and other factors. With that information I would also like to know what the average nightclub goer is worth per day to a night club on the strip.

Many moons ago a host at a property I played at said I was "$500 MTR" or some 3 letter acronym to somebody on the phone while I was sitting in her office which implied that if I was playing a 4% theo VP I was a 12.5k/day player. This was after many stays of just picking up FP and leaving. I won't disclose what I did with this information but let's just say I was grossly overestimating what casinos require out of players for comps.
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous

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