LuckyPhow
LuckyPhow
Joined: May 19, 2016
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January 3rd, 2018 at 11:53:16 AM permalink
I saw an ad recently in a gaming business magazine for a bet-tracking system for casino table games. Here are some of its "features":

  • Casinos can see (and record for later data analysis) every bet each player makes and the amount of each bet, chip by chip.
  • Casinos can analyze hands-per-hour for each Dealer, and compare Dealer performance, both in terms of when (for example, fresh early in shift vs. tired late in shift) and in terms of performance compared to other Dealers.
  • Overall performance of table games by time of day, day of week, etc., to identify best mix of games to offer.

You can see more of the gory details here.

Has anyone seen this at casinos where they play table games? Dealers, how do you feel about this level of micro-management? No more rat-holing chips without the casino knowing. Past-posting (not that any WoV members would) becomes a sure ticket to big legal problems, which is OK with me. Of course, I'm not so excited that the casino can "drill down" into the data for each player to determine every aspect of how each player plays each game at every visit to the casino. However, I can sure see how it might excite casinos.

I suppose it had to happen eventually. Is this the casino of tomorrow next week?
Romes
Romes
Joined: Jul 22, 2014
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January 3rd, 2018 at 1:11:16 PM permalink
The whole thought process is really just a bunch of more 'corporate' AP's taking advantage of the casinos. Any company that sells stuff like this, card counter propaganda, etc to casinos is just really hustling the casino.

It all starts with someone knowledgeable in management. We found a decent location for some table game plays a while ago. We played these locations and we only ever had to worry about 1 person being on duty. He was knowledgeable and able to spot the things we looked for and correct them. More to the point he didn't correct them just because that was the rule, but he understood what they meant and why they needed to correct them. When he wasn't around, we were able to do what we wanted and have a ball doing so. Eventually, he corrected all of their games and thus we stopped playing there. So think of how this applies to this garbage above. If you actually have someone with competence you can achieve the above without purchasing any "system" or "software" from an outside company.

All it takes is a manager saying, we need to collect some data. Don't tell the employees. Have someone go to survailance and get set up with their own monitors. Then go table to table at different intervals of the day and do the counts/checks for internal data (dealer stats/etc).

Next your pit bosses. These are the people responsible for tracking average bets, chip counts, etc. I've seen the gambit of them... good ones that track everything from buy in to cash out correctly, and I've had others I've had to complain about because I'll play for 4 hours with an average bet of $500 and they have me for 2 hours at table min $10... clearly just not doing their job. Your pit bosses are the ones that keep 'good enough' track of all of the chip data.

Performance is nothing more than a qualified estimation of hands dealt, average bets, and EV... same as an AP does. Sure, some could say "you must buy our software to get max EV!" but I've never bought any kind of software for AP'ing, and I think I've done just fine.

I get the merits of doing more, but casinos are so engorged with penny pinching due to the corporate bean counters that they often bury themselves in a hole then need to find a way to get that extra money back, so low and behold what do they do? They slash benefits, such as free play and comps. They start charging for parking. They start charging resort fees... Then the math works out, but the reality is you pissed off all your customers and you lose more money in the long run due to the stupidity.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Zcore13
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
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January 3rd, 2018 at 1:23:32 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

The whole thought process is really just a bunch of more 'corporate' AP's taking advantage of the casinos. Any company that sells stuff like this, card counter propaganda, etc to casinos is just really hustling the casino.

It all starts with someone knowledgeable in management. We found a decent location for some table game plays a while ago. We played these locations and we only ever had to worry about 1 person being on duty. He was knowledgeable and able to spot the things we looked for and correct them. More to the point he didn't correct them just because that was the rule, but he understood what they meant and why they needed to correct them. When he wasn't around, we were able to do what we wanted and have a ball doing so. Eventually, he corrected all of their games and thus we stopped playing there. So think of how this applies to this garbage above. If you actually have someone with competence you can achieve the above without purchasing any "system" or "software" from an outside company.

All it takes is a manager saying, we need to collect some data. Don't tell the employees. Have someone go to survailance and get set up with their own monitors. Then go table to table at different intervals of the day and do the counts/checks for internal data (dealer stats/etc).

Next your pit bosses. These are the people responsible for tracking average bets, chip counts, etc. I've seen the gambit of them... good ones that track everything from buy in to cash out correctly, and I've had others I've had to complain about because I'll play for 4 hours with an average bet of $500 and they have me for 2 hours at table min $10... clearly just not doing their job. Your pit bosses are the ones that keep 'good enough' track of all of the chip data.

Performance is nothing more than a qualified estimation of hands dealt, average bets, and EV... same as an AP does. Sure, some could say "you must buy our software to get max EV!" but I've never bought any kind of software for AP'ing, and I think I've done just fine.

I get the merits of doing more, but casinos are so engorged with penny pinching due to the corporate bean counters that they often bury themselves in a hole then need to find a way to get that extra money back, so low and behold what do they do? They slash benefits, such as free play and comps. They start charging for parking. They start charging resort fees... Then the math works out, but the reality is you pissed off all your customers and you lose more money in the long run due to the stupidity.



Wow that was 6 paragraphs of nonsense. Analytics our part of life and getting even more detailed and better every year. NFL teams are relying on this type of thing, top corporations use it to improve systems and service.

A casino knowing what bets players are playing, how fast or slow a peeler might be dealing and other bits of information could be important factors for them to know.

Just because you are on the opposite side doesn't mean they should not improve their technology. 99.9% of gamblers would not care about any of this. You are in a very, very small group.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Romes
Romes
Joined: Jul 22, 2014
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January 3rd, 2018 at 1:40:06 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

...Wow that was 6 paragraphs of nonsense. Analytics our part of life and getting even more detailed and better every year. NFL teams are relying on this type of thing, top corporations use it to improve systems and service.

A casino knowing what bets players are playing, how fast or slow a peeler might be dealing and other bits of information could be important factors for them to know.

Just because you are on the opposite side doesn't mean they should not improve their technology. 99.9% of gamblers would not care about any of this. You are in a very, very small group.

ZCore13

I agree I might have word vomited a bit, but I still attest my points are in there. I'm not just looking at it from the other side, but if I owned a casino myself. I was simply relating the similarities between the sides. The casino thinks they have the edge, they want to know hands per hour, average bet, expected value, etc. AP's think exactly the same... with my edge I need to increase my hands per hour, my average bet, etc, because then I can increase my expected value!

I also get your next point (if you get my first one now that I've rephrased) that a casino is a lot larger than 1 person (or even a team) so they might need better measuring tools. I'm not saying there isn't some merit at all in spending money to do this. Hell, as an AP I've done this. I've played hands and kept track of how many hands per hour we were getting. I've put COUNTLESS hours in to excel sheets calculating EV's, simulating hands per hour, and trying to combine aspirations with reality. I'm simply saying that if a casino wanted these metrics, all they'd have to do is maybe once per quarter do the work themselves. Sit someone at the monitors and count dealer hands (beginning of their shift vs end... day vs night... etc). That was just one example, and others could be done similarly.

Mostly I was pointing out that casinos jump on this crap like a dog in heat... from analytics to counting propaganda and 90% of the time (see sometimes it does help them) it ends up hurting them to the point they need to make the extra money elsewhere to pay for it (re:cutting benefits, new charges, etc). Apologies for not re-wording and formatting my thoughts better, but again, I still feel the points are in there and are valid.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
FCBLComish
FCBLComish
Joined: Apr 11, 2010
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January 3rd, 2018 at 4:29:12 PM permalink
If you play Slots with your card inserted, the casino knows exactly your total handle and win/loss. In Table Games, for the last 100 years, it has been only an estimate.

How many times have you been upset that your average bet was incorrectly calculated. With systems like this (and I know exactly which one you are discussing), there is no longer a need to track average bet or time played. The casino will know the exact amount you bet and the total number of hands you played. You can then get offers that are exactly based on your worth as a customer.

Now, if you are used to slow playing, rat holing chips, and over exaggerating your average bet, then you will get less than you have been getting previously. How is this a bad thing from the casino's perspective, or the player's perspective?
Beware, I work for the dark side.... We have cookies
racquet
racquet
Joined: Dec 31, 2014
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March 10th, 2018 at 9:25:54 AM permalink
Not speaking for Romes, but making the point in a more general sense...

Whatever your day job, if it's working for a company of any significant size, you know who the empty suits and bean-counters are - folks who know not so much about the nuts and bolts of the business, but can do accounting or time/motion studies, have been to business school, maybe have an MBA, but have not spent any significant amount of time building, cooking, writing, or "widgeting," Millenials who have grown up with the attitude that "there's an app for that."

Maybe they are part of the conglomerate mother-ship that bought your company to add to their empire. Maybe the offspring of the founder. Offshore investors. Liquidators. Managers that think they can manage without knowing a thing about what the people they manage do. People who know absolutely nothing about the business, but simply want to make money, or more likely, make more money than the guy who had their job before them.

Spend time watching or learning the business? Not gonna happen.

Instead, drink the snake oil that's being offered that will allegedly track what's going on out there on the shop floor, the kitchen, the assembly line... or in the pits.

Romes mentions that he came to know that he should avoid one guy at a casino who knew what was going on, and then the whole casino when that guy's expertise floated to the top so as to influence the way the whole place tracked Romes's activities. Software? Metrics? Analytics? Not likely.

This is the wave of the future, but it's happening everywhere, not just in the casino.
billryan
billryan
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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Thanks for this post from:
Yelruh
March 10th, 2018 at 1:27:46 PM permalink
A week after its implemented, dozens of APs will have figured out how to exploit it. The Great Game is afoot. Eternally.
ZenKinG
ZenKinG
Joined: May 3, 2016
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March 10th, 2018 at 1:44:47 PM permalink
Casinos are brain-dead. No amount of technology will ever replace a 'smart' and 'educated' person about game protection. Just look at the casino floor and it will tell you all you need to know about who's running the show upstairs. I even got called on 'checks play' recently at 2x100 on blackjack LOL. I nearly had a stroke at the table of the stupidity I'm surrounded by. Whenever the casinos want to hire me, Ill teach them how to double their profit instantly. Until then, I need to go back to puking after that checks play, I'm still not done.
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.
Zcore13
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
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March 10th, 2018 at 1:56:06 PM permalink
Quote: ZenKinG

Casinos are brain-dead. No amount of technology will ever replace a 'smart' and 'educated' person about game protection. Just look at the casino floor and it will tell you all you need to know about who's running the show upstairs. I even got called on 'checks play' recently at 2x100 on blackjack LOL. I nearly had a stroke at the table of the stupidity I'm surrounded by. Whenever the casinos want to hire me, Ill teach them how to double their profit instantly. Until then, I need to go back to puking after that checks play, I'm still not done.



You are hilarious. Do you even know what cheques play means. You'd be better off doing less posting and more playing. Your posts never help your case about being able to handle playing as a profession.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
ZenKinG
ZenKinG
Joined: May 3, 2016
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March 10th, 2018 at 2:01:07 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

You are hilarious. Do you even know what cheques play means. You'd be better off doing less posting and more playing. Your posts never help your case about being able to handle playing as a profession.


ZCore13



Yea when you 'jump' your bet to a much higher amount than previously played and it's also to get the pit bosses attention to start looking at me closer. You obviously missed the point and started to assume I dont know what it means. The point is 'checks play' shouldn't even be called if the jump is only to 2x100, give me a break. Even if I went from $1 to 2x100, it's still an irrelevant wager. Are casinos scared of losing $2 in EV that round to an AP? You can't make these things up.
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.

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