Lawsuit over cash out tickets
There's really no need for cash out tickets in small change anymore. The coin shortage is over for other businesses.
Quote: AlanMendelsonhttps://www.8newsnow.com/news/local-news/class-action-lawsuit-alleges-mgm-robbed-customers-pennies-at-a-time/
There's really no need for cash out tickets in small change anymore. The coin shortage is over for other businesses.
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It sounds like a B.S. case to me. I don't know of a single casino that wouldn't give you the change. They just made you go to the cage to do it. If you are too lazy to go to the cage, shame on you.
Quote: AlanMendelsonhttps://www.8newsnow.com/news/local-news/class-action-lawsuit-alleges-mgm-robbed-customers-pennies-at-a-time/
There's really no need for cash out tickets in small change anymore. The coin shortage is over for other businesses.
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The machines are for convenience. A casino does not have to and shouldn't be required to keep them full of coins. You want coins, go to the cage.
ZCore13
But the question is are the casinos refusing to stock their machines in an effort (plot, scheme) to take advantage of players who don't want to trek to the cage?
Meanwhile, have the casinos restored their cage staffing to pre pandemic levels?
If there is a lack of cage service, and a planned effort not to restore coins to the redemption machines, is the lawsuit wrong?
At Red Rock there are rarely more than two windows open at the cage, and there is a Disneylandline waiting.
At Suncoast also two windows open BUT SUNCOAST GIVES COINS AT ITS MACHINES and it is a much smaller casino than Red Rock.
Conditions at casinos suggest people are tossing their coin vouchers into the charity bin or just leaving sub-$1 credits on the machines. I cash my coin vouchers by depositing them into the slot machine on the next visit or by going to the cage before I leave.
Quote: ChumpChangeThere's been an actual coin shortage and I have no indication that it's over. Maybe #coinshortage signs are taken down temporarily. Casinos are special cases with banks in that they need an extraordinary amount of coins. If banks can't even keep a couple hundred dollars of quarters in stock, they certainly can't keep businesses in stock.
Conditions at casinos suggest people are tossing their coin vouchers into the charity bin or just leaving sub-$1 credits on the machines. I cash my coin vouchers by depositing them into the slot machine on the next visit or by going to the cage before I leave.
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How many vacationers are already back home when they find an uncashed ticket for those that don't live in town.
Quote: DRichQuote: AlanMendelsonhttps://www.8newsnow.com/news/local-news/class-action-lawsuit-alleges-mgm-robbed-customers-pennies-at-a-time/
There's really no need for cash out tickets in small change anymore. The coin shortage is over for other businesses.
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It sounds like a B.S. case to me. I don't know of a single casino that wouldn't give you the change. They just made you go to the cage to do it. If you are too lazy to go to the cage, shame on you.
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But that argument plays into the plaintiff's favor..
If the casino HAS the change, but is keeping it at the cashier, then their only excuse for not loading the machines is an attempt to keep it by counting on the laziness of patrons.
Once again, the coin shortage, if there ever was one, makes no sense if the cashier is storing it at their windows. Clearly they aren't short of change.
Unless the argument they intend to make is that by making people stop at the cashier, they saved on coins because people were too lazy to go. Which again, plays into the plaintiff favor in that the casino would be admitting they are doing a concerted effort to keep people money pennies at a time
Quote: DRich
It sounds like a B.S. case to me. I don't know of a single casino that wouldn't give you the change. They just made you go to the cage to do it. If you are too lazy to go to the cage, shame on you.
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What does a few coins work out to per hour if you have to wait a few minutes? I'd rather play a penny slot and try to work it up to the next dollar (what few slots still enable bets that low) than have to deal with going to the cage. Nickel VP or Video Keno is also an option.
It honestly doesn't confront me; I usually left the change in the dispenser anyway, except sometimes I would take the quarters if I was anticipating using a parking meter in the near future.
That unclaimed “change” added up to more than $16.5 million for Nevada at the end of the fiscal year in 2022, according to a recent report by the Las Vegas Review-Journal.
And isn't that another $4-million to the casinos?
Quote: darkoz
If the casino HAS the change, but is keeping it at the cashier, then their only excuse for not loading the machines is an attempt to keep it by counting on the laziness of patrons.
It is not necessarily laziness. Handling coins is very expensive for the casino.
Quote: AlanMendelsonFrom the article:
That unclaimed “change” added up to more than $16.5 million for Nevada at the end of the fiscal year in 2022, according to a recent report by the Las Vegas Review-Journal.
And isn't that another $4-million to the casinos?
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I get $5.5 million. 3:1.
Personally, I don't mind getting tickets instead of coins.
Most of the places I play, I'll be back to play a machine again before the ticket expires, and I prefer to not have a bunch of coins that I can't feed into the machines.
Follow the money kids... follow the money. They're scamming the coins off patrons by basically making it a hassle to get the < $1, and relying on most people throwing their tickets down. Then the $ stays in their system. Or how you can donate the change to one of THEIR charities so THEY get the tax write off of millions of $ from the people that do that. It's all just a selfish, greedy, and rather evil leaning imo. You already have suckers coming to give you money, and now you have to take a "shot" at their change vouchers too? Pathetic.Quote: AlanMendelsonFrom the article:
That unclaimed “change” added up to more than $16.5 million for Nevada at the end of the fiscal year in 2022, according to a recent report by the Las Vegas Review-Journal.
And isn't that another $4-million to the casinos?
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THAT’S the big problem here.Quote: 8 News article[the ticket] expires after 30 days
If it lasted 365 days, not so much of a problem.
Quote: gordonm888It sounds to me as if the casino did something in technical violation of the regulations - they made the tickets reimbursable for a shorter time than required. If that is true, then they will almost certainly have to settle the civil suit. It will be a win for the plaintiff's lawyers.
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I don't think that is the case. I believe the technical standards use 6 months as the outer limit so the Gaming Board can get their money. Most casinos that I remember have it set from 30 to 90 days and that is okay as long as it is disclosed (usually on the ticket itself).
Gene
Quote: GenoDRPhI legit don't see how the casino(s) could win this. Even if the TITO was for 1 cent, that's the player's money they are legally entitled to.
Gene
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Of course it is. The player just had to go to the cage to get it.
Are you going to sue the grocery store because they make you walk to the back to buy milk?
Might be even more, depending on how the casino handles the retained change. For example, Harrah's on the strip (used to?) give out a receipt for the change owed, not a TITO. Since it is just a receipt and not a gaming voucher, the casino gets to keep all the change not claimed by the patron; the 25%/75% split between the casino/state only applies to to unclaimed gaming vouchers.Quote: DieterQuote: AlanMendelsonFrom the article:
That unclaimed “change” added up to more than $16.5 million for Nevada at the end of the fiscal year in 2022, according to a recent report by the Las Vegas Review-Journal.
And isn't that another $4-million to the casinos?
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I get $5.5 million. 3:1.
Personally, I don't mind getting tickets instead of coins.
Most of the places I play, I'll be back to play a machine again before the ticket expires, and I prefer to not have a bunch of coins that I can't feed into the machines.
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If a casino is going to issue a voucher to represent cash there should be NO expiration date at all.
Not even six months.
Gene
Quote: GenoDRPhAnd if the player went to the cage and the cashier said "We round down to the whole dollar. We don't have any coins to make change, due to the coin shortage."?.
Gene
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I would then ask them to issue me a check.
Quote: DRichQuote: GenoDRPhAnd if the player went to the cage and the cashier said "We round down to the whole dollar. We don't have any coins to make change, due to the coin shortage."?.
Gene
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I would then ask them to issue me a check.
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I was kind of thinking the same thing. And in this day and age of sophisticated electronic communication, no reason why the casino can't wire the money.
Gene
But if I have a $59,000 voucher, I should use PayPal.
Quote: LoquaciousMoFWMight be even more, depending on how the casino handles the retained change. For example, Harrah's on the strip (used to?) give out a receipt for the change owed, not a TITO. Since it is just a receipt and not a gaming voucher, the casino gets to keep all the change not claimed by the patron; the 25%/75% split between the casino/state only applies to to unclaimed gaming vouchers.Quote: DieterQuote: AlanMendelsonFrom the article:
That unclaimed “change” added up to more than $16.5 million for Nevada at the end of the fiscal year in 2022, according to a recent report by the Las Vegas Review-Journal.
And isn't that another $4-million to the casinos?
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I get $5.5 million. 3:1.
Personally, I don't mind getting tickets instead of coins.
Most of the places I play, I'll be back to play a machine again before the ticket expires, and I prefer to not have a bunch of coins that I can't feed into the machines.
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I think I remember hearing about that.
There is a sensible way to use fewer coins and provide good customer service and minimize workload for the cage.
This scheme does not seem to be it.
Quote: GenoDRPhAnd if the player went to the cage and the cashier said "We round down to the whole dollar. We don't have any coins to make change, due to the coin shortage."?.
Gene
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Under federal regulations when a business rounds change it must be rounded UP to the next unit available.
Pennies are rounded up to nickels, nickel to a dime, dime to a quarter, etc.
Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: GenoDRPhAnd if the player went to the cage and the cashier said "We round down to the whole dollar. We don't have any coins to make change, due to the coin shortage."?.
Gene
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Under federal regulations when a business rounds change it must be rounded UP to the next unit available.
Pennies are rounded up to nickels, nickel to a dime, dime to a quarter, etc.
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Only the casino didn't even do that. They flat out refused to pay, or at least made it necessary to make a brobdignagian effort for patrons to get paid.
Gene
Quote: AlanMendelsonhttps://www.8newsnow.com/news/local-news/class-action-lawsuit-alleges-mgm-robbed-customers-pennies-at-a-time/
There's really no need for cash out tickets in small change anymore. The coin shortage is over for other businesses.
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There’s no sane reason other than greed (mostly on the part of the state) for the tickets to expire anyway.
In Pennsylvania, there is no expiration.
Quote: GenoDRPhQuote: AlanMendelsonQuote: GenoDRPhAnd if the player went to the cage and the cashier said "We round down to the whole dollar. We don't have any coins to make change, due to the coin shortage."?.
Gene
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Under federal regulations when a business rounds change it must be rounded UP to the next unit available.
Pennies are rounded up to nickels, nickel to a dime, dime to a quarter, etc.
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Only the casino didn't even do that. They flat out refused to pay, or at least made it necessary to make a brobdignagian effort for patrons to get paid.
Gene
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Where’s did it say a casino refused to pay? I didn’t see that.
And is “brobdignagian effort” a 10 cent word way of saying stand in line at the cage, like everyone with chips from the table games?
Quote: unJonQuote: GenoDRPhQuote: AlanMendelsonQuote: GenoDRPhAnd if the player went to the cage and the cashier said "We round down to the whole dollar. We don't have any coins to make change, due to the coin shortage."?.
Gene
link to original post
Under federal regulations when a business rounds change it must be rounded UP to the next unit available.
Pennies are rounded up to nickels, nickel to a dime, dime to a quarter, etc.
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Only the casino didn't even do that. They flat out refused to pay, or at least made it necessary to make a brobdignagian effort for patrons to get paid.
Gene
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Where’s did it say a casino refused to pay? I didn’t see that.
And is “brobdignagian effort” a 10 cent word way of saying stand in line at the cage, like everyone with chips from the table games?
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If the casino on purpose didn't load coins into the redemption machines AND made it so the cage was so understaffed so often that it created an undue burden taking a much longer than normal amount of time for patrons to receive their own money, I would argue that, yes, the casino functionally made it impossible to collect lawful winnings. I used "brobdignagian" {sic} according to its usual and customary definition and use. I refer you to a dictionary of your choice for further elucidation at your leisure.
Gene
Quote: GenoDRPhQuote: unJonQuote: GenoDRPhQuote: AlanMendelsonQuote: GenoDRPhAnd if the player went to the cage and the cashier said "We round down to the whole dollar. We don't have any coins to make change, due to the coin shortage."?.
Gene
link to original post
Under federal regulations when a business rounds change it must be rounded UP to the next unit available.
Pennies are rounded up to nickels, nickel to a dime, dime to a quarter, etc.
link to original post
Only the casino didn't even do that. They flat out refused to pay, or at least made it necessary to make a brobdignagian effort for patrons to get paid.
Gene
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Where’s did it say a casino refused to pay? I didn’t see that.
And is “brobdignagian effort” a 10 cent word way of saying stand in line at the cage, like everyone with chips from the table games?
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If the casino on purpose didn't load coins into the redemption machines AND made it so the cage was so understaffed so often that it created an undue burden taking a much longer than normal amount of time for patrons to receive their own money, I would argue that, yes, the casino functionally made it impossible to collect lawful winnings. I used "brobdignagian" {sic} according to its usual and customary definition and use. I refer you to a dictionary of your choice for further elucidation at your leisure.
Gene
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Logical conclusion of your radical hypothetical is that all the table game players can sue the casino as it was “functionally made impossible” for people to cash their chips at cage. Lol
Quote: unJonQuote: GenoDRPhQuote: unJonQuote: GenoDRPhQuote: AlanMendelsonQuote: GenoDRPhAnd if the player went to the cage and the cashier said "We round down to the whole dollar. We don't have any coins to make change, due to the coin shortage."?.
Gene
link to original post
Under federal regulations when a business rounds change it must be rounded UP to the next unit available.
Pennies are rounded up to nickels, nickel to a dime, dime to a quarter, etc.
link to original post
Only the casino didn't even do that. They flat out refused to pay, or at least made it necessary to make a brobdignagian effort for patrons to get paid.
Gene
link to original post
Where’s did it say a casino refused to pay? I didn’t see that.
And is “brobdignagian effort” a 10 cent word way of saying stand in line at the cage, like everyone with chips from the table games?
link to original post
If the casino on purpose didn't load coins into the redemption machines AND made it so the cage was so understaffed so often that it created an undue burden taking a much longer than normal amount of time for patrons to receive their own money, I would argue that, yes, the casino functionally made it impossible to collect lawful winnings. I used "brobdignagian" {sic} according to its usual and customary definition and use. I refer you to a dictionary of your choice for further elucidation at your leisure.
Gene
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Logical conclusion of your radical hypothetical is that all the table game players can sue the casino as it was “functionally made impossible” for people to cash their chips at cage. Lol
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Would make for an interesting court filing, if the casino took patrons' money almost right away at the tables when cashing in to a game, but made patrons wait in a long line due to under staffing at the cage to cash out.
Gene
Dollar stores, however are raking it in, which is why they don’t make you walk to the back somewhere to get your change.
Quote: rxwineCasinos don’t make enough money to provide such conveniences like small change.
Dollar stores, however are raking it in, which is why they don’t make you walk to the back somewhere to get your change.
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The Dollar Trees near me all have signs still claiming a national coin shortage and requesting payment in exact change. They still give out exact change in change, though.
Gene
Quote: GenoDRPh
Only the casino didn't even do that. They flat out refused to pay, or at least made it necessary to make a brobdignagian effort for patrons to get paid.
Gene
Which casino?
Quote: GenoDRPh
Would make for an interesting court filing, if the casino took patrons' money almost right away at the tables when cashing in to a game, but made patrons wait in a long line due to under staffing at the cage to cash out.
Gene
I don't think that case would have a chance of winning. The court would just tell you to go play somewhere else.
Quote: DRichQuote: GenoDRPh
Would make for an interesting court filing, if the casino took patrons' money almost right away at the tables when cashing in to a game, but made patrons wait in a long line due to under staffing at the cage to cash out.
Gene
I don't think that case would have a chance of winning. The court would just tell you to go play somewhere else.
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You're thinking like a gambler.
This suit has a good chance of winning.
Quote: DRichQuote: GenoDRPh
Would make for an interesting court filing, if the casino took patrons' money almost right away at the tables when cashing in to a game, but made patrons wait in a long line due to under staffing at the cage to cash out.
Gene
I don't think that case would have a chance of winning. The court would just tell you to go play somewhere else.
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Perhaps. But merchants must follow the rules.And the rules state that merchants can't make it easy for them to take your money and make it almost impossible for them to give you your money. And a casino that didn't load coins into the redemption machines, then made patrons wait in long lines at the cashier's window to redeem tickets skirts that rule. Especially if they'd rather you play some more with the value of the ticket, donate the money to their charity, use the tickets for tokes to waitstaff or dealers you most likely already toked or decide not to take the trouble to redeem them altogether and then make it easier for you to do so, rather than cash out and go home.
Gene
Quote: DRichQuote: GenoDRPh
Only the casino didn't even do that. They flat out refused to pay, or at least made it necessary to make a brobdignagian effort for patrons to get paid.
Gene
Which casino?
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Have you read the complaint?
Gene
Quote: GenoDRPh
If the casino on purpose didn't load coins into the redemption machines AND made it so the cage was so understaffed so often that it created an undue burden taking a much longer than normal amount of time for patrons to receive their own money, I would argue that, yes, the casino functionally made it impossible to collect lawful winnings.
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You can wring your hands all day about "undue burden" but at the end of the day you still would need to prove the intent behind the lack of coin was to defraud the patron of the coin.
That said, a month expiration on the coin vouchers does sound like a very risky play from the casino. Every TITO I have ever seen/held has had a minimum of a year for expiration.
I think it should follow that all tickets should not have expiration dates.
Otherwise you're giving casinos the right to cancel their debts (which is what a ticket is).
