maxpower
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September 8th, 2020 at 9:53:36 AM permalink
Hello out there!

I have a new game that I'm looking to launch with an online casino, due to the poop show that is Covid-19.
Any recommendations about this process? Should I be looking to partner with an Igaming company?
Do I need to produce a fully publishable app or is it better to bring a good prototype?
The game is designed as a live table game, should I submit it to Scientific for review or try to partner with a smaller player.
What are the best mid-size companies to pursue as a partner?

Thanks
Last edited by: maxpower on Sep 8, 2020
DRich
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September 8th, 2020 at 10:31:53 AM permalink
For the live table game generally the best course of action is to get a few installs on your own. If you can take a successful game to the table game companies you will do a lot better. If the table game companies are taking all of the risk to get the first placements don't expect to make much money. Also be very careful and protect the game as much as possible. Table game patents are almost never granted anymore so make a digital version and patent that.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
heatmap
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September 8th, 2020 at 2:51:13 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

For the live table game generally the best course of action is to get a few installs on your own. If you can take a successful game to the table game companies you will do a lot better. If the table game companies are taking all of the risk to get the first placements don't expect to make much money. Also be very careful and protect the game as much as possible. Table game patents are almost never granted anymore so make a digital version and patent that.



ok because i always see advice like this coming from you... my question to you is .... what if a part of his game was already patented and for some reason he really couldnt find the exact prior art, and he produces the game, and when he shows the game to the gaming companies that they see he is trying to use a "feature" they already own as IP... what could possibly happen could he be sued? could he have to end up out of luck and out of the time he put into making the game?
DRich
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September 8th, 2020 at 5:56:06 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

ok because i always see advice like this coming from you... my question to you is .... what if a part of his game was already patented and for some reason he really couldnt find the exact prior art, and he produces the game, and when he shows the game to the gaming companies that they see he is trying to use a "feature" they already own as IP... what could possibly happen could he be sued? could he have to end up out of luck and out of the time he put into making the game?



If his game infringes a claim that is already patented the most likely scenario is he will get a cease and desist. There would be no point to be sued if he hasn't monetized it yet. You can only sue for monetary damages of the infringement. Most likely he would just have to modify the game so it doesn't infringe.

By patenting a video version of the game and patenting it, the patent examiners will do the work looking for infringement. Of course it will take about two years to get it patented.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
maxpower
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September 8th, 2020 at 8:02:37 PM permalink
That was the plan until recent events. Now the plan is to launch the mobile/app version first, while we see what the industry is going to look like when the pandemic ends.
We have a provisional patent, trademark and copyright.
What igaming companies are the best for new game inventors.
I've contacted Scientific and IGT, but I'm not sure I want to submit the game to them at this point.
Looking for a little guidance. The video patent has my interest for sure.
Thanks
DJTeddyBear
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September 9th, 2020 at 4:02:11 PM permalink
Contact Jon Muskin at http://www.patentstrademarks.com
or Rich Newman at http://www.newmanlawlv.com

Both are attorneys that specialize in casino game patents and other related issues.

I've worked with both. They're really good guys who will give you a free consultation, as well as some free advice during that consultation.

Jon is based in Philadelphia, while Rich is in Las Vegas.

When you call, feel free to mention my name - my real name. Dave Miller.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
beachbumbabs
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September 9th, 2020 at 6:26:46 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Contact Jon Muskin at http://www.patentstrademarks.com
or Rich Newman at http://www.newmanlawlv.com

Both are attorneys that specialize in casino game patents and other related issues.

I've worked with both. They're really good guys who will give you a free consultation, as well as some free advice during that consultation.

Jon is based in Philadelphia, while Rich is in Las Vegas.

When you call, feel free to mention my name - my real name. Dave Miller.



I also vouch for both of the attorneys above. Definitely recommend that as your next move.

And, the egame version seems to be the way to get a patent granted these days, not the live version. It can be very expensive to do the egame or an app for it, but if there's anything unique about your game, the best road to the patent is the egame version.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
maxpower
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September 10th, 2020 at 6:56:04 AM permalink
Thanks Dave,

We have a patent attorney working on the full patent, we currently have a provisional.
Assuming we are protected, are there any companies you would recommend working with?
I think I saw in another post that you have developed a game with Galaxy?
We are looking to produce the app/online version of this game while we let covid clear out.
Do you have any recommendations for app developers?
I understand that protecting our IP is of utmost importance. Once this is complete, would you recommend submitting the game to Scientific or IGT or going with a smaller company?

Thanks again for all the comments!
DJTeddyBear
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September 10th, 2020 at 11:54:04 AM permalink
Quote: maxpower

We have a patent attorney working on the full patent, we currently have a provisional.
Assuming we are protected...

Assume? Oy...
I hope the lawyer understands the uniqueness of casino game patents.

Quote: maxpower

I think I saw in another post that you have developed a game with Galaxy?

Sort of.

I have two games. One is patented and I USED to have a marketing deal with Galaxy, but they basically put it on the shelf for several years. The other is patent pending, with no deals yet.

Info on both:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
DRich
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September 10th, 2020 at 1:56:57 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear


I have two games. One is patented and I USED to have a marketing deal with Galaxy, but they basically put it on the shelf for several years. The other is patent pending, with no deals yet.

Info on both:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/



Dave, do you have an out with Galaxy if they don't get "x" number of placements in a certain time period? That was something I specifically requested with IGT and they gave it to me.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
maxpower
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September 10th, 2020 at 3:10:50 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Assume? Oy...
I hope the lawyer understands the uniqueness of casino game patents.

maxpower
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September 10th, 2020 at 3:11:51 PM permalink
Confidence is high
DJTeddyBear
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September 10th, 2020 at 3:36:23 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Dave, do you have an out with Galaxy if they don't get "x" number of placements in a certain time period? That was something I specifically requested with IGT and they gave it to me.

Yes.

And despite that there were zero installs and zero field trials, I was eager / willing to renegotiate when the 3 years ended. But they weren稚 interested.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Mission146
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September 25th, 2020 at 3:52:11 AM permalink
I'm hardly an expert on the subject and have obviously never seen a game to market, but I wrote a little article for people interested in the subject looking for some basic tips from sources that I have read.

Additionally, I offer ideas for two games that I've come up with:

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/create-a-new-game/
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
DJTeddyBear
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September 25th, 2020 at 7:31:50 AM permalink
Mission -

Nice article. But is it too late to edit? I have three comments:

1 - The link in the first paragraph should be labeled "Game Inventor's Corner" rather than "this section...". (Somewhat related: For the longest time, maybe still, the label "click here" far more often than not, linked to a download page for Adobe's Acrobat reader.)

2 - When mentioning Dan's great book, it should have a link to Amazon to purchase.

3 - The section on your new game concepts is WAY too long. I tended to gloss over it. That's how long it was. It should have had brief descriptions, with links to WoV threads where they could be better presented, with better formatted tables for the math, etc.



On a side note, a long while back, I promised to tell the full story of why Galaxy and I are no longer working together. I alluded to it above. Expect the full story in a few days.

Spoiler alert: It's not as juicy as you might imagine.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Mission146
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September 25th, 2020 at 9:28:39 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Mission -

Nice article. But is it too late to edit? I have three comments:

1 - The link in the first paragraph should be labeled "Game Inventor's Corner" rather than "this section...". (Somewhat related: For the longest time, maybe still, the label "click here" far more often than not, linked to a download page for Adobe's Acrobat reader.)

2 - When mentioning Dan's great book, it should have a link to Amazon to purchase.

3 - The section on your new game concepts is WAY too long. I tended to gloss over it. That's how long it was. It should have had brief descriptions, with links to WoV threads where they could be better presented, with better formatted tables for the math, etc.



On a side note, a long while back, I promised to tell the full story of why Galaxy and I are no longer working together. I alluded to it above. Expect the full story in a few days.

Spoiler alert: It's not as juicy as you might imagine.



Thanks for the compliment!

1. I値l see if I can fix that; I don稚 do the links.

2. That痴 an excellent idea; I値l add that later on.

3. That痴 not a bad idea, though people could just read the rules and skip the math stuff.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
YouDontSay00
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December 2nd, 2020 at 11:11:56 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

For the live table game generally the best course of action is to get a few installs on your own. If you can take a successful game to the table game companies you will do a lot better. If the table game companies are taking all of the risk to get the first placements don't expect to make much money. Also be very careful and protect the game as much as possible. Table game patents are almost never granted anymore so make a digital version and patent that.



I have a provisional patent for my table game. So, what you are saying is have the patent written up describing the game in a digital format? Then your much more likely to get it patented? Then will you have patent protection to use it as a table game?
777
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December 3rd, 2020 at 1:28:28 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Table game patents are almost never granted anymore so make a digital version and patent that.



It doesn稚 make sense to me that 電igital patent is easier to obtain than an exact or equivalent method/process patent that does not rely on software or computer programming. What is the logic behind this?
USpapergames
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December 3rd, 2020 at 4:56:58 PM permalink
Quote: 777

It doesn稚 make sense to me that 電igital patent is easier to obtain than an exact or equivalent method/process patent that does not rely on software or computer programming. What is the logic behind this?



I know quite a lot about this subject since I just got a new patent this year. Your correct that it doesn't make sense that a digital medium would somehow make a game patentable. Something to note is that many supreme courts are currently over tuning judgements on digital novelty. Many gaming patents that were awards just 5 years ago wouldn't even be granted today. Also of equal importance is game nobility, which does not exist. If anything about your game is patentable, it must be completely novel & never used in anything currently available. Not just novel in games because you took some other idea and introduced it to games, what you patent must be novel to the world as a whole, many people struggle to understand this.

This is about all I'm willing to share, it feels weird helping my competition and not getting a paycheck :/
Math is the only true form of knowledge
DJTeddyBear
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December 3rd, 2020 at 5:03:30 PM permalink
If all you got is basically a new way to shuffle, deal, and score cards, it's not patentable. Add an electronic method / element, and maybe you got something.


Quote: 777

It doesn稚 make sense to me that 電igital patent is easier to obtain than an exact or equivalent method/process patent that does not rely on software or computer programming. What is the logic behind this?

Let me try to explain it.

As most people are aware, I created a side bet for Roulette. For more info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com

In short, players are betting that the result of the next 3 spins has a unique pokerish result.

On my website, I describe how the game can be dealt, without using any new / unique (read patentable) devices.

On the other hand, tracking the bet can be done with a sensor and electronics. THAT'S patentable. And the patent to protect the electronics can also protect the game involved.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
USpapergames
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December 3rd, 2020 at 8:06:34 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

If all you got is basically a new way to shuffle, deal, and score cards, it's not patentable. Add an electronic method / element, and maybe you got something.


Let me try to explain it.

As most people are aware, I created a side bet for Roulette. For more info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com

In short, players are betting that the result of the next 3 spins has a unique pokerish result.

On my website, I describe how the game can be dealt, without using any new / unique (read patentable) devices.

On the other hand, tracking the bet can be done with a sensor and electronics. THAT'S patentable. And the patent to protect the electronics can also protect the game involved.



I said I didn't want to share more info but ill racetrack my statement since I'm curious about your patent. I've been told by Weide & Miller (the leader in casino game patents) that the only things that are patentable related to games are 1) new game mechanics / rules & 2) game accessories or game tools. I've also read the cases they cited on recent judge rulings to confirm this.

I believe many people can get away with patenting a game specifically through software by claiming the software adds some unique method of gameplay as a good tool or accessory. Bottom line, your roulette side bet doesn't sound patentable to me. There are plenty of patents that get granted every day and won't hold up in court to an infringement lawsuit in superior court. Just remember these rules:

1. The patent is only as valuable as its demand from the consumer (No point in applying for a patent that won't make you money).

2. The patent will only protect you from infringement based on how well it is written (There are plenty of patent attorneys who will take your money & lack the skills necessary to protect all aspects of your intellectual property. Hire a specialist who understands your work).

3. Patents can be improved upon! Someone can improve your work and capitalize on your success! (Make sure when you file a patent that you are filing the most effective points of locality. Don't file a patent if you believe it's possible for someone to improve upon your work. Now a lot (if not all) of work can be improved on so pick a time period that you believe won't be obtainable. Patents last 20 years so if you think it would take someone a years worth of time to improve upon your work than your probably safe to publish it. Any less amount of time and your asking for someone to run with your idea).

I'd love to review your patent, do you mind sharing with me? I'll share with you mine?
Last edited by: USpapergames on Dec 3, 2020
Math is the only true form of knowledge
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