Rosebud
Rosebud
  • Threads: 9
  • Posts: 34
Joined: May 27, 2020
June 26th, 2020 at 11:16:18 AM permalink
I was wondering, for new games, when is a house edge considered "too high" for a table game? To the point where a regular player might not find it attractive to play. Also, are there any rules of thumb around hands per hour and the house edge? For instance, I would imagine you could get away with a slower game if you had a higher house edge, but are there any quantitative metrics or benchmarks in the industry?

EDIT: I should mention that I am talking for an overall house edge for the main section of a game. I know some things like side bets and what not can go very high, but I am taking about the "primary" house edge for the game. For instance, for the purposes of this question, for craps as an example, I would say the primary house edge is the house edge for the pass line and not the house edge for one of the other bets like Big 6 and 8.

Thanks!
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
  • Threads: 326
  • Posts: 9555
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
Thanked by
Rosebud
June 27th, 2020 at 11:00:57 AM permalink
Not a simple question, but here is a simple answer: the house edge is too high when the typical gambler perceives that his bankroll does not last long enough.

Because of the complexity of the question I don't think I can seriously give a figure like "no more than 2% HE" though I think generally that can be a guide. I don't think you can sell a new game to the House with such a low HE though
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
tough
tough
  • Threads: 10
  • Posts: 56
Joined: Jun 22, 2020
June 27th, 2020 at 6:27:21 PM permalink
I think the casinos should max out their house edge at 2.7%, like European roulette. Any more than this, like American roulette, and I think the game is a rip off.
100xOdds
100xOdds
  • Threads: 638
  • Posts: 4256
Joined: Feb 5, 2012
Thanked by
Rosebud
June 27th, 2020 at 6:36:22 PM permalink
Quote: Rosebud

I was wondering, for new games, when is a house edge considered "too high" for a table game? To the point where a regular player might not find it attractive to play. Also, are there any rules of thumb around hands per hour and the house edge? For instance, I would imagine you could get away with a slower game if you had a higher house edge, but are there any quantitative metrics or benchmarks in the industry?

EDIT: I should mention that I am talking for an overall house edge for the main section of a game. I know some things like side bets and what not can go very high, but I am taking about the "primary" house edge for the game. For instance, for the purposes of this question, for craps as an example, I would say the primary house edge is the house edge for the pass line and not the house edge for one of the other bets like Big 6 and 8.

Thanks!

it depends on your goal
ie: hrs of entertainment at a leisurely pace or reaching a certain rewards card tier level quickly

for your $ to last longest, play at the lowest house edge table games:
1) 3:2 bj
2) craps passline/dont pass
3) ultimate texas holdem

craps is probably the best to last the longest.
single passline/dont pass with max odds then just wait till you hit. you can stand there for many rolls with that single bet.

for rewards tier lvl, play video poker with a 99.1+% return and only if the casino doesnt require huge coin-in per tier point
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
Rosebud
Rosebud
  • Threads: 9
  • Posts: 34
Joined: May 27, 2020
June 27th, 2020 at 8:20:33 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

Not a simple question, but here is a simple answer: the house edge is too high when the typical gambler perceives that his bankroll does not last long enough.

Because of the complexity of the question I don't think I can seriously give a figure like "no more than 2% HE" though I think generally that can be a guide. I don't think you can sell a new game to the House with such a low HE though



Thanks. And yes, definitely not a simple answer to a question like this! And yes, seems like any new carnival games would definitely need in excess of 2% now.
tringlomane
tringlomane
  • Threads: 8
  • Posts: 6281
Joined: Aug 25, 2012
Thanked by
Rosebud
June 27th, 2020 at 8:29:32 PM permalink
Imo, i would not have a game where the "perfect" player loses more than 2 "units" per hour on average.

A "unit" in this case is considered to be things like "antes" in multi-bet games.
Rosebud
Rosebud
  • Threads: 9
  • Posts: 34
Joined: May 27, 2020
June 27th, 2020 at 8:47:17 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

it depends on your goal
ie: hrs of entertainment at a leisurely pace or reaching a certain rewards card tier level quickly

for your $ to last longest, play at the lowest house edge table games:
1) 3:2 bj
2) craps passline/dont pass
3) ultimate texas holdem

craps is probably the best to last the longest.
single passline/dont pass with max odds then just wait till you hit. you can stand there for many rolls with that single bet.

for rewards tier lvl, play video poker with a 99.1+% return and only if the casino doesnt require huge coin-in per tier point



Thanks. And I was actually asking more-so to better calibrate the edge of the game I am working on. I know carnival games are expected to have higher house edge, but at the same time, if it is too high, people won't want to play, so I am trying to figure out what the limit is to how high an edge can go before being perceived as too unattractive. But I figure that this would also have to take the hands per hour into account as well.
Rosebud
Rosebud
  • Threads: 9
  • Posts: 34
Joined: May 27, 2020
June 27th, 2020 at 8:48:27 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

Imo, i would not have a game where the "perfect" player loses more than 2 "units" per hour on average.

A "unit" in this case is considered to be things like "antes" in multi-bet games.



Thank you for the input - I will keep this in mind.
100xOdds
100xOdds
  • Threads: 638
  • Posts: 4256
Joined: Feb 5, 2012
June 28th, 2020 at 2:38:36 AM permalink
Quote: Rosebud

Thanks. And I was actually asking more-so to better calibrate the edge of the game I am working on.
I know carnival games are expected to have higher house edge, but at the same time, if it is too high, people won't want to play, so I am trying to figure out what the limit is to how high an edge can go before being perceived as too unattractive. But I figure that this would also have to take the hands per hour into account as well.

ah.. you're a game creator.

im not your target audience.
if the Wiz's review of the new game has a house edge greater than 0.9%, im not playing it.
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
100xOdds
100xOdds
  • Threads: 638
  • Posts: 4256
Joined: Feb 5, 2012
June 28th, 2020 at 2:40:53 AM permalink
Quote: Rosebud

And yes, seems like any new carnival games would definitely need in excess of 2% now.

doh.. so BlackJack Switch wouldnt have made it in today's casino environment?
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
Rosebud
Rosebud
  • Threads: 9
  • Posts: 34
Joined: May 27, 2020
June 28th, 2020 at 8:25:25 AM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

doh.. so BlackJack Switch wouldnt have made it in today's casino environment?



Talking to some Canadian casino operations, both that I spoke to gave me an expectation of 2%+ as a bare minimum for a game to be seriously considered if it is new and has no installations elsewhere. Given the pandemic, they said they are not really interested in installing new games unless they really think it can be lucrative enough to take the risk (operators here are pretty conservative). Especially since tables won’t have 6 people at them for a while, so when casinos here do open, hold per table will be down (fewer people at the tables). But if they think your game can compensate for that (higher house edge while still being enjoyable enough to draw players), there is a better chance the game will get a trial.
Last edited by: Rosebud on Jun 28, 2020
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
  • Threads: 39
  • Posts: 2946
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
Thanked by
Rosebud
June 28th, 2020 at 12:10:39 PM permalink
Don't underestimate the value of sidebets, they can have a HE of over 3% but probably need a high-paying tempter (e.g. Pair Plus in 3CP).

I can understand some players won't play anything with a large HE, but your target audience is probably players looking for an easy game that's fun to play and gives a good run for your money with an opportunity to win something decent, If your base game can include, say, a 25/1 payout that has some advantages, but sometimes that means the maximums have to be lower.
DRich
DRich
  • Threads: 86
  • Posts: 11596
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
June 28th, 2020 at 1:31:28 PM permalink
Casino patrons have proved that they will play 15% hold games, when will we see 20%?
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Rosebud
Rosebud
  • Threads: 9
  • Posts: 34
Joined: May 27, 2020
June 28th, 2020 at 2:00:34 PM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

Don't underestimate the value of sidebets, they can have a HE of over 3% but probably need a high-paying tempter (e.g. Pair Plus in 3CP).

I can understand some players won't play anything with a large HE, but your target audience is probably players looking for an easy game that's fun to play and gives a good run for your money with an opportunity to win something decent, If your base game can include, say, a 25/1 payout that has some advantages, but sometimes that means the maximums have to be lower.



Thank you. I was originally not going to include one, but I’ve been working on some side bet ideas.
Ace2
Ace2
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 2672
Joined: Oct 2, 2017
Thanked by
Rosebud
June 28th, 2020 at 2:49:48 PM permalink
For regular players, I’d say the cap is around 2%.

If you’re going to make 1,000 bets over a weekend with a fair payout of 1:1, actual payout of 9:10 for a 5% edge, you will lose about 19 of 20 weekends. Losing all the time is no fun
It’s all about making that GTA
DogHand
DogHand
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 1486
Joined: Sep 24, 2011
Thanked by
Rosebud
June 28th, 2020 at 3:35:23 PM permalink
Rosebud,

Besides the house edge, you also have to consider the variance of the game. As a silly example, consider a game with a house edge of 1%. If the player loses exactly 1% every round (house takes in $100 and returns $99), then the variance is 0, and nobody would play.

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand
Rosebud
Rosebud
  • Threads: 9
  • Posts: 34
Joined: May 27, 2020
June 28th, 2020 at 5:02:21 PM permalink
Quote: Ace2

For regular players, I’d say the cap is around 2%.

If you’re going to make 1,000 bets over a weekend with a fair payout of 1:1, actual payout of 9:10 for a 5% edge, you will lose about 19 of 20 weekends. Losing all the time is no fun



Thanks for putting it into context like this!
Rosebud
Rosebud
  • Threads: 9
  • Posts: 34
Joined: May 27, 2020
June 28th, 2020 at 5:03:20 PM permalink
Quote: DogHand

Rosebud,

Besides the house edge, you also have to consider the variance of the game. As a silly example, consider a game with a house edge of 1%. If the player loses exactly 1% every round (house takes in $100 and returns $99), then the variance is 0, and nobody would play.

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand



This is a good point - thank you. I guess there is a lot that goes into this consideration beyond the house edge. At the end of the day, I guess it's the hold that the casino cares about the most (and the amount of action the table gets).
ksdjdj
ksdjdj
  • Threads: 94
  • Posts: 1707
Joined: Oct 20, 2013
Thanked by
Rosebud
June 28th, 2020 at 6:07:28 PM permalink
This link below may be of some help in working out what type of games are the “ best “

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.usaonlinecasino.com/blog/which-games-make-casinos-the-most-money/amp/


Written from phone
SOOPOO
SOOPOO 
  • Threads: 121
  • Posts: 10940
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
June 28th, 2020 at 6:12:24 PM permalink
Quote: tough

I think the casinos should max out their house edge at 2.7%, like European roulette. Any more than this, like American roulette, and I think the game is a rip off.



Frankly, I find it amazing that anyone plays double zero roulette anywhere. And I was stunned to read that there are now Vegas casinos offering triple zero roulette! So if triple zero roulette exists (8% house edge?) , the sky is the limit, I guess.
Rosebud
Rosebud
  • Threads: 9
  • Posts: 34
Joined: May 27, 2020
June 28th, 2020 at 6:20:42 PM permalink
Quote: ksdjdj

This link below may be of some help in working out what type of games are the “ best “

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.usaonlinecasino.com/blog/which-games-make-casinos-the-most-money/amp/


Written from phone



Thanks for the article! Didn’t realize Wheel of Fortune was such a money maker.
Lovecomps
Lovecomps
  • Threads: 79
  • Posts: 427
Joined: Aug 12, 2018
June 28th, 2020 at 8:07:13 PM permalink
In a lot of casinos, a poker rake can approach 10%. That’s nearly twice that of American roulette but poor players, not time, can offset it.
The best things in life are not free.
DRich
DRich
  • Threads: 86
  • Posts: 11596
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
June 28th, 2020 at 8:13:10 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Frankly, I find it amazing that anyone plays double zero roulette anywhere. And I was stunned to read that there are now Vegas casinos offering triple zero roulette! So if triple zero roulette exists (8% house edge?) , the sky is the limit, I guess.



People play 15% hold slot machines so why wouldn't they play an 8% game?
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Moonsovermyhamy
Moonsovermyhamy
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 7
Joined: Jun 29, 2020
June 29th, 2020 at 5:03:21 AM permalink
When a Gambler is losing way more than he or she wanted to.
Last edited by: Moonsovermyhamy on Jun 29, 2020
rxwine
rxwine
  • Threads: 209
  • Posts: 12164
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
Thanked by
Rosebud
June 29th, 2020 at 10:09:57 AM permalink
Keeping a player in the casino longer may be better for a casino at better odds for the player.

-player gets a sense that he is getting more action, though in fact he may make up for that by putting more money over time.
- more likely to return to casino where it appears he is getting value for action
- more likely to end up spending money in their nonGambling amenities since he’s there longer.
- more likely to recommend to friends since he’s less likely to feel burned for value
- tired players make more mistakes

Just aiming for the sweet spot of taking money from the player may not be their best bet.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
Rosebud
Rosebud
  • Threads: 9
  • Posts: 34
Joined: May 27, 2020
June 29th, 2020 at 10:56:08 AM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Keeping a player in the casino longer may be better for a casino at better odds for the player.

-player gets a sense that he is getting more action, though in fact he may make up for that by putting more money over time.
- more likely to return to casino where it appears he is getting value for action
- more likely to end up spending money in their nonGambling amenities since he’s there longer.
- more likely to recommend to friends since he’s less likely to feel burned for value
- tired players make more mistakes

Just aiming for the sweet spot of taking money from the player may not be their best bet.



This seems very reasonable. Makes me wonder what a casino looks for when evaluating new games, beyond the known factors like house edge, hands per hour, realized hold, etc. I suppose there are a lot of soft factors involved.

Like a lot of game designers, I’m finding calibrating tgat house edge to something that make sense a bit tricky, so I’ll just have to get to work through all the competing factors and come to something reasonable.
  • Jump to: