Sci Games Stadium BJ - Mohegan Sun

Has anyone been out to MS to see the new Stadium Blackjack set up. It was announced a few days ago and while I have heard of Stadium seating for games like Bacc, Roulette & Sic Bo that don't require mid hand player decisions, I don't understand how Blackjack would work in this type of "community betting on a single hand" arrangement.

Per the article, players start out with the same two player hand and then are able to make independent decisions thereafter. How exactly does that work?

I haven't seen SHFL's version but I'd assume it works in a similar way to other shared-hand setups: the dealer just pulls cards out and you either use them based on the decisions you make, or you don't. So if you stood, the next card is meaningless and doesn't apply to your hand. If you split, the next card goes to your first split hand. If you hit/doubled, it's the 3rd card of your existing hand, etc.

Gotcha...but the number of cards needed to cover all options is going to depend on the first two cards and then the cards that come out afterwards for splits, re-splits double downs or not, etc. How many cards do they pull out for a given blackjack hand that initially is a pair?

Quote: Paradigm

Gotcha...but the number of cards needed to cover all options is going to depend on the first two cards and then the cards that come out afterwards for splits, re-splits double downs or not, etc. How many cards do they pull out for a given blackjack hand that initially is a pair?

The dealer will keep drawing cards until the dealer terminal tells them the hand is over. They don't realize what each player is doing, they only know that the machine is telling them to keep drawing, or the hand is over for every player.

Quote: SM777

The dealer will keep drawing cards until the dealer terminal tells them the hand is over. They don't realize what each player is doing, they only know that the machine is telling them to keep drawing, or the hand is over for every player.

Is this dealt from a CSM? If not, it seems ripe for team counting where a high-roller plays with the count and a min-bet player intentionally plays a count-maximization strategy to minimize the number of negative hands per shoe. Or even where a single counter does it all himself.

What is the EV/hour for someone who plays with the following two-part strategy?
a) if the count is not positive, bet one min-bet unit and keep drawing until (i) the count is positive or (ii) you bust, thereby removing more cards on bad counts than would normally occur; and
b) if the count is positive, bet N units according to the count and play proper strategy.

Does N exist such that the above strategy is more profitable than simply betting 0 when the count is negative? I probably didn't frame that perfectly but you get the gist.

So the dealer terminal waits until every player terminal enters their decision to split, hit or stand? And then waits after every subsequent card for every player decision before dealing the next card? I will need to see this in action at G2E...the game of BJ doesn't seem particularly suited to Stadium Play due to the plurality of player options throughout hands that I would think hold up play on particular hands making for a very slow BJ experience...but I would have to see it in action to really have an informed decision.

Three Card Poker & Let it Ride would seem to be much easier as all the decisions are all binary. And if you failed to respond, the hand would be folded or the bet returned to the player (in LIR) after the expiration of a timer.

Even UTH could be played using binary decisions if you locked the initial raise decision at 4X or Check (eliminate the 3X raise option). Put an 8 sec timer on everyone's screen to which a non response defaults to check/fold.

It will be very interesting to see how these Stadium products are received...I think they will be a big success in larger properties with the right content. And/Or as bar top terminals that allow table games play (as SM777 has indicated previously).

Player terminals take up the same amount of real estate as a traditional slot machine....hmmm, is this what "skill based slots" will look like? Seems more realistic than Pinball or Space Invader bonus rounds on a RNG slot game. Maybe skill based slots machines include a lot of different "table game" type product that is now possible with one dealer & electronics handling all the game mechanics and pays for 50+ players.

Interesting times in table game space for sure....

Quote: MathExtremist

Is this dealt from a CSM? If not, it seems ripe for team counting where a high-roller plays with the count and a min-bet player intentionally plays a count-maximization strategy to minimize the number of negative hands per shoe. Or even where a single counter does it all himself.

What is the EV/hour for someone who plays with the following two-part strategy?
a) if the count is not positive, bet one min-bet unit and keep drawing until (i) the count is positive or (ii) you bust, thereby removing more cards on bad counts than would normally occur; and
b) if the count is positive, bet N units according to the count and play proper strategy.

Does N exist such that the above strategy is more profitable than simply betting 0 when the count is negative? I probably didn't frame that perfectly but you get the gist.

It is dealt from a CSM. That is reading the cards and providing the dealer terminal with that information, as well as displaying it on the player terminals as well.

Quote: Paradigm

So the dealer terminal waits until every player terminal enters their decision to split, hit or stand? And then waits after every subsequent card for every player decision before dealing the next card? I will need to see this in action at G2E...the game of BJ doesn't seem particularly suited to Stadium Play due to the plurality of player options throughout hands that I would think hold up play on particular hands making for a very slow BJ experience...but I would have to see it in action to really have an informed decision.

Three Card Poker & Let it Ride would seem to be much easier as all the decisions are all binary. And if you failed to respond, the hand would be folded or the bet returned to the player (in LIR) after the expiration of a timer.

Even UTH could be played using binary decisions if you locked the initial raise decision at 4X or Check (eliminate the 3X raise option). Put an 8 sec timer on everyone's screen to which a non response defaults to check/fold.

It will be very interesting to see how these Stadium products are received...I think they will be a big success in larger properties with the right content. And/Or as bar top terminals that allow table games play (as SM777 has indicated previously).

Player terminals take up the same amount of real estate as a traditional slot machine....hmmm, is this what "skill based slots" will look like? Seems more realistic than Pinball or Space Invader bonus rounds on a RNG slot game. Maybe skill based slots machines include a lot of different "table game" type product that is now possible with one dealer & electronics handling all the game mechanics and pays for 50+ players.

Interesting times in table game space for sure....

I can only assume they'll have it on display at G2E. But it's a great concept for lower limit BJ. You can have a seat for a large of amount of players who want to bet $5, they can do whatever they want without antagonizing a larger player at an actual table, and it is all done with one dealer.

There's got to be a timer where it will make the "correct" decision if you don't choose. I doubt it will allow one player to hold up a hand of potentially 20 or more for longer than 10-15 seconds.

I have added it to my list of things to investigate at G2E...BJ is a tough game to enforce the "correct" decision as it sometimes requires making an additional bet. Splitting 8's is always the correct decision, but convincing a $5 player of that after the fact when both hands end up losing and the terminal made them make an additional $5 split bet because they didn't make a decision to hit, stand or split in time isn't going to end well.

Nevertheless, this is a great product that I see gaining traction in the marketplace. Cost effective way to play low limit BJ, community aspect of all betting on the same hand, Millenials able to grab four or five terminals together as opposed to hoping for 5 seats at a single table. I can see opportunity for a celebrity type dealing personalities up front that are able to provide an "above and beyond" gaming experience...if you can make it fun and engaging for a large group of people, you are going to be in demand..."Let's go play Stadium BJ at XYZ....MJ & Co is dealing and they always make it a good time!" Players today have their favorite dealers...I think that gets to be a bigger difference maker in these Stadium set ups.

Quote: Paradigm

So the dealer terminal waits until every player terminal enters their decision to split, hit or stand? And then waits after every subsequent card for every player decision before dealing the next card? I will need to see this in action at G2E...the game of BJ doesn't seem particularly suited to Stadium Play due to the plurality of player options throughout hands that I would think hold up play on particular hands making for a very slow BJ experience...but I would have to see it in action to really have an informed decision.

Three Card Poker & Let it Ride would seem to be much easier as all the decisions are all binary. And if you failed to respond, the hand would be folded or the bet returned to the player (in LIR) after the expiration of a timer.

Even UTH could be played using binary decisions if you locked the initial raise decision at 4X or Check (eliminate the 3X raise option). Put an 8 sec timer on everyone's screen to which a non response defaults to check/fold....

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Quote: Paradigm

… this is a great product that I see gaining traction in the marketplace. Cost effective way to play low limit BJ …

I agree the game will probably enjoy marketplace success because, as you point out, it is a cost effective way to run a blackjack game. So, evaluated in light of the casinos’ interest it is a great product. You neglected to mention another great benefit for casinos: dealers can be trained from scratch in an hour and can have zero personality, can have no people skills and they don’t have to be able to add two-plus-two. A minimum wage job that can be filled with unskilled labor.

From a player’s perspective the game has been stripped of the human element. It is devoid of social interaction, both with other players and the dealer. The game has a cyborg quality: the dealer and physical card deck are retained while all the money handling and game play timing belongs to the machines. It is a devolution of the game into a cancerous mutation.

Maybe you will be right...but I think there is also potential for the product to be used in an up tempo, music playing, alcohol flowing with a dealer team that has personality and engages the player arena via a microphone and entertains them as opposed to performing the mundane task of adding two plus two and handling chips. After all, it is the dealer's chatting with players, cheering them on when they win, etc. and the teams running the front of the Stadium will have more time not less time to chat and add their personality to the game. If a property puts in a robotic cyborg type dealing team, the product will suck and I bet fail at that property. This is supposed to be a group social experience for blackjack as well as being more cost efficient. Time will tell, but I hope my version of the game will be the norm, as I agree, the vision you see is not a pretty one.

My vision is based on the reality of what I have seen at Mohegan Sun. There is no interaction between the dealers and players. The dealers perform their job with detached emotionless efficiency. This is the same casino that botched the launch of Free Bet big time. Clearly they are missing the concept of the game as you describe it.

That is too bad...yeah, I don't think that is the most effective use of the game concept. The MS game does sound like a game no one would want to play, might as well sit at one of those blackjack video games with the animated dealer that pretends to be looking at players from side to side...those games are horrible, but you can play all electronic BJ for $1 if that is your thing.

I used the SHFL website seeking info about Stadium Blackjack, but got no response. Wonder if anyone here can answer. Not going to Vegas until April, but curious. Read that people will like it because you won't know who took the dealers break card. HaHa.
Well, you know somebody split 10's against a ten, or hit soft 19, etc. And no matter what the third baseman did, he could never
give the dealer a BJ by doing something stupid.
Speaking of BJ, with a 10 up, you can double down on that 11, get 21. Get a 3 card 20 or 21, or split those 8, get another, double on 2 11's etc, OH THE FUN Then the dealer shows you BJ. Only lose original bet, I am guessing. But such FUN.
Also I read you can sit out a few hands in several reviews. Anybody know how exactly that works ? I mean if a player has credits, played last hand, gets cell phone call, gets a sandwich. flirts with drink server, etc. As long as he has credits will the terminal wait 3`0 seconds to see if he makes a bet? Appear that way, not sure if that will continue if he skips a hand, but suspect it will. If a player does not call for action within 10 seconds, the machine will stand ? Or so I read.
I wonder if these are slot machines by definition in Vegas ? Dont expect a high roller to play them, but can imagine a side bet paying $1,200. Will that automatically generate a W2G ? Instead of 300-1 rule ?

I tried other sites, vegas adviser, etc. Info was contradictory, one poster said he played but did not remember if payoffs were 3/2 or 6/5. just that he won a lot ? hahah
Tried to find info on Nevada regulations, only found info about a trial. Anybody know where I might get some answers. This site was highly recommended.

Does Nevada gaming require rules posted for a trial ? If so, does anyone know website or link to see about Stadium Blackjack ? Thank you

Quote: Ernesto

Does Nevada gaming require rules posted for a trial ? If so, does anyone know website or link to see about Stadium Blackjack ? Thank you

No, Nevada does not require the posting of game rules.

Pardon me, do you mean rules do not have to be posted at the casino or that rules, dealing procedures etc. do not have to be posted anywhere with gaming regulators ?

Quote: Ernesto

I used the SHFL website seeking info about Stadium Blackjack, but got no response. Wonder if anyone here can answer. Not going to Vegas until April, but curious. Read that people will like it because you won't know who took the dealers break card. HaHa.
Well, you know somebody split 10's against a ten, or hit soft 19, etc. And no matter what the third baseman did, he could never
give the dealer a BJ by doing something stupid.
Speaking of BJ, with a 10 up, you can double down on that 11, get 21. Get a 3 card 20 or 21, or split those 8, get another, double on 2 11's etc, OH THE FUN Then the dealer shows you BJ. Only lose original bet, I am guessing. But such FUN.
Also I read you can sit out a few hands in several reviews. Anybody know how exactly that works ? I mean if a player has credits, played last hand, gets cell phone call, gets a sandwich. flirts with drink server, etc. As long as he has credits will the terminal wait 3`0 seconds to see if he makes a bet? Appear that way, not sure if that will continue if he skips a hand, but suspect it will. If a player does not call for action within 10 seconds, the machine will stand ? Or so I read.
I wonder if these are slot machines by definition in Vegas ? Dont expect a high roller to play them, but can imagine a side bet paying $1,200. Will that automatically generate a W2G ? Instead of 300-1 rule ?

What any person does will have no affect on your hand. They can split their 10's and it won't change the cards to your hand whatsoever.

Rules do not have to be posted at the NGCB site's announcement of the field trial.

Rules ARE provided for the players at the offering casino.

Quote: SM777

What any person does will have no affect on your hand. They can split their 10's and it won't change the cards to your hand whatsoever.

I know that really. But some people hate it when a player does something dumb and as a result , they lose that hand. In the long run it makes no difference. I understand all that really.

It just appears that with Stadium blackjack, the complaining player can have a complaint that does not exist on a regular BJ table. At least there in USA, where dealer gets 2 cards to start.
Table player gets an 10 (2 5's) versus a dealer's 10. If game proceeds to where that player can hit, and he does so, gets a A, for 21, he can NOT lose the hand. He can push, but he can NOT lose.
Stadium player gets an 10 (2 5's),versus a dealer's 10. He takes a hit and gets a A for 21. Now another player splits his 5's and as a result dealer gets an BJ, WHAM Stadium player loses with 3 card 21.
At a table game with a dealer in USA, I do not think a player can ever lose any money if he has a 3 card 21 ????

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but...

Deep in the help files of these type games, it explains that each player is actually head to head with the dealer. The dealer's cards are selected from cards still common to all decks after each of the player's cards are dealt. The selection of the cards within this reduced deck is random. Further action by the player is from each individual deck. Then the remaining cards still common to all decks are randomly selected from for further dealer action, if any, after exposing the hole card.

So, what one person does will not affect what cards another receives. It seems to me that there will be a small effect on what cards are available to the dealer after all actions have been taken.

For example, one player may double a hand, which means they will receive only one card no matter what. Another person might stand on that hand for whatever reason. A third might simply hit the hand, which means they may take a second or more hits. Each of these would result in a different number of cards available to dealer's hand after all player actions are done, though the value of those cards would still be random.

I THINK you are wrong. From SG Video it appears card are dealt from a shoe(CSM) one card at a time. It has an optical reader. All players get a digital representation of the cards that are actually at the dealers station.
The dealer only get an up card. That's why you can lose with a 3 cards 21 at Stadium Blackjack. As for community cards, I THINK if 1 player hits, another doubles down, they both get the same card that is in the community section at the dealers stand.
So a player splitting his 5's, he might take a card that would not have made a BJ for the dealer, but afterwards the dealer could get an A to go with his 10 for a BJ,
I ASSUME you will only lose original bet, but ????

I believe the dealer only takes one card, so the digital reader can not display it ?

Feel free to correct me, ANYBODY

Quote: Ernesto

I THINK you are wrong. From SG Video it appears card are dealt from a shoe(CSM) one card at a time. It has an optical reader. All players get a digital representation of the cards that are actually at the dealers station.
The dealer only get an up card. That's why you can lose with a 3 cards 21 at Stadium Blackjack. As for community cards, I THINK if 1 player hits, another doubles down, they both get the same card that is in the community section at the dealers stand.
So a player splitting his 5's, he might take a card that would not have made a BJ for the dealer, but afterwards the dealer could get an A to go with his 10 for a BJ,
I ASSUME you will only lose original bet, but ????

I believe the dealer only takes one card, so the digital reader can not display it ?

Feel free to correct me, ANYBODY

It's very possible I'm talking about a different product. The one I'm referring to does not have a live dealer on camera. It sounds like yours does. Sorry for the confusion.

Thank you for responding beachbumbabs. I know it is the weekend, buy anybody know ???

You guys are killing me with all the guessing. If you live in LV, go to Venetian- it's been there at least a couple months now.

All players get same two starting cards, dealer takes just an up card.

Players make decisions, and once everyone does, the next card comes out. Dealer puts it in a community area on their felt. If you hit/split/double, it's yours. So you could all have the same three card total at that point.

But if you stand, ON YOUR SCREEN it goes to the dealer's total while on others' screens who hit, it's theirs to add to their hand or bust them.

Wash, rinse, repeat until all players have stood or busted and then their particular path versus the dealer also finishes. At Venetian, each step requires all players to make their decision during a 10 second window and if they don't it usually stands for them unless they're at 11 or lower, although it is slightly more complicated than that I think with some soft total exceptions.

Wife and I played this for a couple hours and the beauty was we couldn't affect anyone but ourselves. Fun watching all the excess community cards come out when some idiot decides to split 10 value cards while we've stood and watched the dealer bust against us. Usual side bets from Shufflemaster on the game- Royal Match, Bet the Set. Didn't play those.

Wife liked not having people (except me) tell her "book" or scold her if she made an improper play, and liked that she held her destiny in her hands with the dealer's result. I did too actually.

Would I play if i wasn't with her and betting more? Probably 50/50. Depends on how drunk i'm getting if i wanna talk to the dealer!

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