shrimpboatcapt
shrimpboatcapt
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August 22nd, 2016 at 4:23:47 PM permalink
Is there any hope for table games that use a modified deck (i.e. stripping suits, only using paint cards, etc)?
DJTeddyBear
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August 22nd, 2016 at 4:29:31 PM permalink
Pai Gow Poker uses 52 standard plus one joker.

Spanish 21 uses decks that don't have any tens. (Actual tens. They still have ten value face cards.)

There's probably others.

It's perfectly legal as long as it's disclosed.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
shrimpboatcapt
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August 22nd, 2016 at 4:53:59 PM permalink
Hey DJ - Thanks for the quick reply.

What about table games that are essentially mash-ups of a few different games?

For example, I've been working on a modified deck game combining Ceelo, 3 card poker, Pai Gow, and Baccarat. Even though it's actually alot of fun, saying that aloud makes it sound gross. Any suggestions for packaging and marketing such a monstrosity :) ?
RealizeGaming
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August 22nd, 2016 at 5:03:45 PM permalink
Quote: shrimpboatcapt

Is there any hope for table games that use a modified deck (i.e. stripping suits, only using paint cards, etc)?



I'm not sure if a game with a modified deck will work, but from a patent standpoint it is easier to get around the 101 rejection when using a modified deck.
Paigowdan
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August 22nd, 2016 at 5:08:01 PM permalink
You can use modified decks if straightforward and already done: add one or two jokers, or remove the pip-10 cards. Do NOT remove 3s and 7s, and add 8s - that'll annoy both players and casinos.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
shrimpboatcapt
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August 22nd, 2016 at 5:22:15 PM permalink
@DJTeddyBear
@RealizeGaming
@Paigowdan

My card game is a riff off of a dice game. It uses a deck full of only A-6 cards. Am I in the ballpark of viability or out in the parking lot :)?
DJTeddyBear
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August 22nd, 2016 at 5:28:48 PM permalink
Are you aware that in California the craps games use cards? Depending on the casino, they have different versions of running the game.

Some use dice to select random cards which then produce the outcome, some merely use random/shuffled cards for the outcome.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Paigowdan
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August 22nd, 2016 at 5:41:51 PM permalink
Quote: shrimpboatcapt

@DJTeddyBear
@RealizeGaming
@Paigowdan

My card game is a riff off of a dice game. It uses a deck full of only A-6 cards. Am I in the ballpark of viability or out in the parking lot :)?


Yes, this is good, as is a Royal deck (10 to Ace) and a Spanish deck.

Many card companies produce casino quality special decks on demand for games that use "special but reasonable" deck compositions, to ease their casino use.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
shrimpboatcapt
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August 22nd, 2016 at 6:01:36 PM permalink
@DJTeddyBear - Thanks! I was not aware of Card craps. Feeling much better knowing that there is an established market. But now wondering if they have patents blocking me out?

@Paigowdan - Thanks! I have a new paigow variant - if you want to play I can pm link.
Lucky
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August 22nd, 2016 at 8:11:01 PM permalink
Quote: shrimpboatcapt

Is there any hope for table games that use a modified deck (i.e. stripping suits, only using paint cards, etc)?


Yes.
"Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." -- Winston Churchill
AxelWolf
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August 22nd, 2016 at 9:50:55 PM permalink
can you use pokemon cards.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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August 22nd, 2016 at 9:50:55 PM permalink
can you use pokemon cards?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
MathExtremist
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August 24th, 2016 at 12:18:55 PM permalink
Quote: shrimpboatcapt

For example, I've been working on a modified deck game combining Ceelo, 3 card poker, Pai Gow, and Baccarat.

Resist the temptation. There are precisely zero successful new games that are merely combinations of features found in existing games. Moreover, since "make a new casino game by combining existing casino games" has been tried so many times, you'll be hard-pressed to argue to the patent office that your particular combination is non-obvious.

So if you're going to pursue it, don't pitch it as "this game combines Ceelo, Three Card Poker, Pai Gow, and Baccarat," instead pitch it as something altogether new.

If I had to take an educated guess based on those four games, I'd presume that your game deals six cards in the range 1..6 to both the player and dealer, then the cards are separated into two three-card hands and then placed front/back (where the back hand has to be higher according to baccarat-style scoring). Then there are side bets based on both Ceelo and 3CP ranking schemes. Am I close?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
shrimpboatcapt
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August 24th, 2016 at 5:03:23 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Resist the temptation. There are precisely zero successful new games that are merely combinations of features found in existing games. Moreover, since "make a new casino game by combining existing casino games" has been tried so many times, you'll be hard-pressed to argue to the patent office that your particular combination is non-obvious.

So if you're going to pursue it, don't pitch it as "this game combines Ceelo, Three Card Poker, Pai Gow, and Baccarat," instead pitch it as something altogether new.



Thanks for the explanation and advice!

Quote: MathExtremist

If I had to take an educated guess based on those four games, I'd presume that your game deals six cards in the range 1..6 to both the player and dealer,



Yes

Quote: MathExtremist

then the cards are separated into two three-card hands



Yes

Quote: MathExtremist

and then placed front/back (where the back hand has to be higher according to baccarat-style scoring).



Not exactly - Yes you make a high and low hand. However, the hands are scored using Ceelo hand rankings. And if you cannot make a Ceelo hand, then you use baccarat scoring.

Quote: MathExtremist

Then there are side bets based on both Ceelo and 3CP ranking schemes. Am I close?



Very impressive.


So what do you think?
MathExtremist
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August 25th, 2016 at 9:08:41 AM permalink
Quote: shrimpboatcapt

Not exactly - Yes you make a high and low hand. However, the hands are scored using Ceelo hand rankings. And if you cannot make a Ceelo hand, then you use baccarat scoring.

I see, so it's more like Pai Gow (tiles) than I had anticipated where there are "special" hands that outrank the non-special hands. If Ceelo rankings come before non-Ceelo rankings then you're going to have a strange-looking hand order. For example, the following four hands are counterintuitively ranked from highest to lowest:
456 - highest Ceelo hand
123 - lowest Ceelo hand
234 - not a Ceelo hand, worth 9
345 - not a Ceelo hand, worth 2

Also, here's another backwards-looking hand ordering:
233 - Ceelo pair
234 - non-Ceelo 9
235 - non-Ceelo 0

I might suggest switching up a few things to make the game more intuitive.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
shrimpboatcapt
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August 25th, 2016 at 11:51:39 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

I see, so it's more like Pai Gow (tiles) than I had anticipated where there are "special" hands that outrank the non-special hands.



Yes

Quote: MathExtremist

Ceelo rankings come before non-Ceelo rankings



Yes. A non Ceelo hand loses to a Ceelo hand, except for 123.

Hand order:
456 - best possible hand
222 - any trips
225 - any pair and a singleton (225 would be 5)
235 - any non ceelo hands
123 - worst possible hand

Quote: MathExtremist

you're going to have a strange-looking hand order. For example, the following four hands are counterintuitively ranked from highest to lowest:
456 - highest Ceelo hand
123 - lowest Ceelo hand
234 - not a Ceelo hand, worth 9
345 - not a Ceelo hand, worth 2

Also, here's another backwards-looking hand ordering:
233 - Ceelo pair
234 - non-Ceelo 9
235 - non-Ceelo 0



Ceelo hands are awkwardly ordered and mathematically out of whack. Trips are the most difficult to get, but 456 is the best hand. And 123 or 456 qualify as Ceelo hands, but 234 and 345 don't. 123 is more difficult to get than 225, but 123 automatically loses to all. Is that perfect imbalance what makes this game fun to play? Would revising this game to be mathematically correct negatively impact its playability?

I have tried an iteration where non Ceelo hands are evaluated based on descending order, like poker hi/lo rules. For example, a non Ceelo hand of 432 would beat a non Ceelo hand of 532 because 432 has a lower descending order.

Quote: MathExtremist

I might suggest switching up a few things to make the game more intuitive.



Such as... :)?
MathExtremist
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August 25th, 2016 at 12:20:06 PM permalink
Quote: shrimpboatcapt

Ceelo hands are awkwardly ordered and mathematically out of whack. Trips are the most difficult to get, but 456 is the best hand. And 123 or 456 qualify as Ceelo hands, but 234 and 345 don't. 123 is more difficult to get than 225, but 123 automatically loses to all. Is that perfect imbalance what makes this game fun to play? Would revising this game to be mathematically correct negatively impact its playability?
I have tried an iteration where non Ceelo hands are evaluated based on descending order, like poker hi/lo rules. For example, a non Ceelo hand of 432 would beat a non Ceelo hand of 532 because 432 has a lower descending order.


"Mathematically correct" is not well-defined, and "fun to play" is entirely in the eye of the players. If the goal is to have a game based on Ceelo, then that's how it should work. To my knowledge, no Ceelo games have ever been successful in casinos, but there's no harm trying again. But throwing in baccarat-style scoring to fill the holes in the Ceelo hand rankings seems confusing. I think the poker-style scoring is better because it's easier to see automatically, especially in the context of trips and pairs which are already Ceelo ranks. If you were doing a whole game using mod-10 scoring that's different -- I've done exactly that, it works great -- but only doing mod-10 scoring for some of the hands seems like a jumbled mess.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
shrimpboatcapt
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August 25th, 2016 at 1:31:52 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

"Mathematically correct" is not well-defined,.



Sorry. The mathematical correctness I was referring to is the reordering of hand rankings according to their statistical probabilities:
Trips
Straights
paired points
non Ceelo hands

Quote: MathExtremist

"fun to play" is entirely in the eye of the players. If the goal is to have a game based on Ceelo, then that's how it should work. To my knowledge, no Ceelo games have ever been successful in casinos, but there's no harm trying again. But throwing in baccarat-style scoring to fill the holes in the Ceelo hand rankings seems confusing. I think the poker-style scoring is better because it's easier to see automatically, especially in the context of trips and pairs which are already Ceelo ranks. If you were doing a whole game using mod-10 scoring that's different -- I've done exactly that, it works great -- but only doing mod-10 scoring for some of the hands seems like a jumbled mess.



That makes sense. I'm working on other game variations using the same Ceelo Poker rules (with varying degrees of success). The blackjack version lets players redraw, and non ceelo hands are a bust. It's definitely a challenge to find the right balance. When a solution fits it easy to stop looking for a more efficient answer.
MathExtremist
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August 25th, 2016 at 1:47:47 PM permalink
Quote: shrimpboatcapt

Sorry. The mathematical correctness I was referring to is the reordering of hand rankings according to their statistical probabilities:
Trips
Straights
paired points
non Ceelo hands

You can use that ranking scheme with just two Ceelo-type exceptions and I think it becomes far clearer:
4-5-6 (automatic winner)
Trips
3-4-5
2-3-4
Paired points
non Ceelo hands
1-2-3 (automatic loser)

That's going to be the easiest to explain, I think. I don't know what kind of a game it makes, and I'm concerned about the complexity of the dealer's house way, but that's outside the scope of my free Internet consulting. :)

Edit: or if you're trying to capture a slightly different demographic, make the game based on Bunco instead of Ceelo. Just make sure the cocktail servers know they'll have a run on white wine when the game goes live.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Paradigm
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August 26th, 2016 at 1:48:56 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Edit: or if you're trying to capture a slightly different demographic, make the game based on Bunco instead of Ceelo. Just make sure the cocktail servers know they'll have a run on white wine when the game goes live.


This was tried...I remember seeing it at G2E many years ago (2008 or 2009) and thinking "not a chance"...If I remember correctly, it was based on how many Fives were rolled!
Lucky
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August 26th, 2016 at 3:36:36 PM permalink
Quote: Paradigm

This was tried...I remember seeing it at G2E many years ago (2008 or 2009) and thinking "not a chance"...If I remember correctly, it was based on how many Fives were rolled!



BUNKO BUCKS. You saw it at the Southern Gaming Summit in 2009. The game had one failed install at the old Sheraton in Tunica.

Premise was that since there were millions of Bunko players around the world that the appeal would transfer to the casino floor. Problem is the multitudes of women who gather to drink wine and gossip do not fit the demographic of women who gamble in a casino. BIG SURPRISE!
"Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." -- Winston Churchill
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