Thread Rating:

Poll

11 votes (47.82%)
5 votes (21.73%)
2 votes (8.69%)
5 votes (21.73%)

23 members have voted

vegas702
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August 28th, 2014 at 3:31:55 AM permalink
......
NowTheSerpent
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August 28th, 2014 at 3:56:39 AM permalink
Quote: allinriverking

A small disc labeled “TRUE” is placed on top of any parlayed Hardway Bet



I hate lammers; there are too many as it is. However, the bet sounds tempting to try, is truly novel, and isn't time-consuming to book or settle. It may evolve into a "Buy-Hardways" bet, with either EV = -4.76% = -9/189 = -1/21 (CIB) or EV = -0.529% = -1/189 (CWO). The incentive to the casino would be the $21/bet price tag; to the player, an HE much lower than the standard Place Hardways figure.
allinriverking
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August 28th, 2014 at 4:30:08 AM permalink
Quote: NowTheSerpent

I hate lammers; there are too many as it is. However, the bet sounds tempting to try, is truly novel, and isn't time-consuming to book or settle. It may evolve into a "Buy-Hardways" bet, with either EV = -4.76% = -9/189 = -1/21 (CIB) or EV = -0.529% = -1/189 (CWO). The incentive to the casino would be the $21/bet price tag; to the player, an HE much lower than the standard Place Hardways figure.



That's sounds interesting, but I'm taking juice out of existing house edge in the first time being bet. The true lammer, same use as a buy lammer basically..
allinriverking
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August 28th, 2014 at 4:33:41 AM permalink
Quote: vegas702

this is the internet after all so that's to be expected. people will often vote without fully understanding the issues . so I'd take any poll with a grain of salt.



Another member just voted they rather get paid less for their hardway bet.. I just chalk it to comical now.. It's like saying pay me 6 to 5 instead of 3 to 2 in BJ.. Makes no sense at all.
vegas702
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August 28th, 2014 at 4:52:14 AM permalink
.....
wudged
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August 28th, 2014 at 7:29:28 AM permalink
Quote: allinriverking

Another member just voted they rather get paid less for their hardway bet.. I just chalk it to comical now.. It's like saying pay me 6 to 5 instead of 3 to 2 in BJ.. Makes no sense at all.



Maybe people don't want to parlay and just like to play regular hardway bets.
thecesspit
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August 28th, 2014 at 7:56:21 AM permalink
I think there's issues on the house side... they are making a 0 edge bet with larger amounts of money than before.

I rarely play the hardways... this bet is too fiddly and won't entice me to play them any more.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
Buzzard
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August 28th, 2014 at 9:08:51 AM permalink
Quote: allinriverking

Another member just voted they rather get paid less for their hardway bet.. I just chalk it to comical now.. It's like saying pay me 6 to 5 instead of 3 to 2 in BJ.. Makes no sense at all.




But both numbers in 6/5 are bigger than 3/2, so it is a better game.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
allinriverking
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August 28th, 2014 at 9:14:29 AM permalink
Quote: wudged

Maybe people don't want to parlay and just like to play regular hardway bets.



You don't have to parlay. A true parlay is the max a player can press their winning bet to receive the true odds payout. Any amount over a true parlay is treated as a normal hardway... This stops the house from not taking in as much on the hardways. It's like limiting the number of true odds you can take on a pass/come bet..
allinriverking
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August 28th, 2014 at 9:20:33 AM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

But both numbers in 6/5 are bigger than 3/2, so it is a better game.



I actually had a player telling people that before..
allinriverking
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August 28th, 2014 at 9:26:10 AM permalink
* bet hardway
* hit hardway, get paid as regular
* bet hardway(up to amount of a true parlay), bonus triggered
* hit hardway, get paid true-odds payout
* bet hardway converts back to regular hardway(except any amount that was bet over a true parlay, that amount of bet the bonus is triggered)
petroglyph
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August 28th, 2014 at 9:27:42 AM permalink
Quote: allinriverking

You don't have to parlay. A true parlay is the max a player can press their winning bet to receive the true odds payout. Any amount over a true parlay is treated as a normal hardway... This stops the house from not taking in as much on the hardways. It's like limiting the number of true odds you can take on a pass/come bet..




Well, at least its not confusing.[sarc]
Ahigh
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August 28th, 2014 at 9:33:55 AM permalink
You can already improve on the hardway parlay bet on a craps felt if you know you always parlay.

First bet you make on the rail and is free. After that bet wins, you take the winnings from the rail and go to the hardway.

First hit is free, second hit is 2.78% edge per roll or 9.09% on the 6/8 and 11.11% on the 4/10.

The key to lowering your edge per resolution is to make the first bet with yourself.

My way:

1->11->110 and down 11/121 = 9.09% edge

Your bet:

1->10->110 and down 11/121 = 9.09% edge

My bet: already available in the casino

Your bet: not

Both bets: require parlay to work

This goes back to the point of being able to create bets that are not on the felt. My way only works if you take the first bet with yourself. Most people don't understand how to do this.

It does save you money compared to having the house book your first bet. But all of this assume that you know you're going to lose and just want to save money.

Most people think in terms of "house money" and will never understand.
aahigh.com
allinriverking
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August 28th, 2014 at 9:40:44 AM permalink
Quote: petroglyph

Well, at least its not confusing.


it's not confusing, no more confusing than changing come bet amounts. The true odds bet can only be made when you are being paid for already hitting hardway..

*player bets $1 hard 6, dealer places their bet in proper location
*hard 6 hits
*player wins $9, if player is going to press they must do so now to receive true odds on next win
*player presses $11, dealer places $10 in proper location and places the "TRUE" lammer on top of that bet, dealer places remaining $2 on top of the "TRUE" lammer
*hard 6 hits
*player wins $100 and $18(cut out separate)
*player leaves bet alone
*dealer swaps the $2 bet with the $10 bet
*hard 6 hits
*player wins $20 and $90(cut out separate)

Anything bet below "TRUE" lammer when hardway hits moves to above "TRUE" lammer for next roll, anything bet above "TRUE" lammer when hardway hits moves to below "TRUE" lammer for next roll.
allinriverking
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August 28th, 2014 at 9:43:23 AM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

You can already improve on the hardway parlay bet on a craps felt if you know you always parlay.

First bet you make on the rail and is free. After that bet wins, you take the winnings from the rail and go to the hardway.

First hit is free, second hit is 2.78% edge per roll or 9.09% on the 6/8 and 11.11% on the 4/10.

The key to lowering your edge per resolution is to make the first bet with yourself.

My way:

1->11->110 and down 11/121 = 9.09% edge

Your bet:

1->10->110 and down 11/121 = 9.09% edge

My bet: already available in the casino

Your bet: not

Both bets: require parlay to work

This goes back to the point of being able to create bets that are not on the felt. My way only works if you take the first bet with yourself. Most people don't understand how to do this.

It does save you money compared to having the house book your first bet. But all of this assume that you know you're going to lose and just want to save money.

Most people think in terms of "house money" and will never understand.



your numbers don't make sense
mustangsally
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August 28th, 2014 at 10:16:51 AM permalink
Quote: allinriverking

your numbers don't make sense

hehe
neither does his words, in my opinion as his opinion is just that
another Ahigh opinion!

but what does one expect from a non-craps expert that says a $6 place 8
and a $6 place 6 is only one bet

he also says the WORD *house advantage* is one word

I think he likes things in ones, Is (eyes) mean one

maybe his post is more readable an easier to understand like so (added a shuffle for entertainment)
Quote: Ahigh


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has a nice rhythm to it


as to the OP bet, again I still do not get it.

what is the big deal if one bet pays 9 to 1 or 10 to 1.

it does nothing to increase the chances of winning.
Now make a bet that does that and in my opinion I think more would play them

Sally
I Heart Vi Hart
allinriverking
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August 28th, 2014 at 10:24:03 AM permalink
Quote: mustangsally




as to the OP bet, again I still do not get it.

what is the big deal if one bet pays 9 to 1 or 10 to 1.

it does nothing to increase the chances of winning.
Now make a bet that does that and in my opinion I think more would play them

Sally



If you increased the chance of winning then the payout would most likely go down. I guess compare it to, if the house didn't pay true-odds on the odds for a pass/come bet, then someone comes out and says we are going to give you true-odds on the odds now. To die hard craps players that is the only way to play is using max odds to reduce overall house edge. That's what my bets do for the hardways, it gives players a chance to take true-odds on a hardway, but only after the hardway has hit so that the house earns something for the free odds on the hardway for the next hit..
Buzzard
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August 28th, 2014 at 10:26:08 AM permalink
Sorta like making no money on the parlay, but increasing your profit due to volume.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
mustangsally
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August 28th, 2014 at 10:43:33 AM permalink
Quote: allinriverking

If you increased the chance of winning then the payout would most likely go down.

yes I agree the
Teeter Totter effect

Quote: allinriverking

To die hard craps players that is the only way to play is using max odds to reduce overall house edge.

that is your opinion and thank you for sharing
I really disagree with this.
I have been told by experienced craps players (die hard craps players) and Dealers too(I am neither)
that the only way to win at craps is pass with odds, place bets - that is where you win your money - and hardway bets.
the only way

no die hard craps players even cares about house edge in my opinion
and many craps dealers and boxman opinions too. I have asked.
increasing ones win rate is the answer to more fun and winning playing craps
just tossing out more opinions
Quote: allinriverking

That's what my bets do for the hardways,
it gives players a chance to take true-odds on a hardway, but only after the hardway has hit so that the house earns something for the free odds on the hardway for the next hit..

I get what you say buts again,
I see no real difference in 9 to 1 against 10 to 1 for a bet that only wins about 10% of the time

and
I know you have seen many times when a shooter throws the dice and they (or one die) hits a few hardways bets and they scatter.
do you have some protection so this does not happen?
especially on a full table

Sally
I Heart Vi Hart
wudged
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August 28th, 2014 at 11:21:22 AM permalink
Quote: allinriverking

You don't have to parlay



Quote: allinriverking

*player wins $9, if player is going to press they must do so now to receive true odds on next win



And exactly how does this not require a parlay?

Also, you really think hiding lammers between stacks of chips is not going to be confusing?
allinriverking
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August 28th, 2014 at 11:23:38 AM permalink
Quote: mustangsally


no die hard craps players even cares about house edge in my opinion
and many craps dealers and boxman opinions too. I have asked.
increasing ones win rate is the answer to more fun and winning playing craps
just tossing out more opinions
I get what you say buts again,
I see no real difference in 9 to 1 against 10 to 1 for a bet that only wins about 10% of the time



If you hit the same amount of hardways, my way or traditional, it could make the difference of win or loss, lessen a loss or greater a win. You will never look back and say I wish I was playing the traditional hardways, because your take will be the same or greater with my way; never lesser.

Quote: mustangsally


and I know you have seen many times when a shooter throws the dice and they (or one die) hits a few hardways bets and they scatter.
do you have some protection so this does not happen?
especially on a full tableSally



more than likely only the traditional hardways will be knocked around because they are on top of the "TRUE" lammer. Boxperson will have to give speech about not going thru the hardways as giving already.. It can always be fixed, at worse give to players advantage because the house still won't have a negative hold regardless which way they pay..
allinriverking
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August 28th, 2014 at 11:26:19 AM permalink
Quote: wudged

And exactly how does this not require a parlay?

Also, you really think hiding lammers between stacks of chips is not going to be confusing?



parlay is choice, player can leave the original bet there after hitting at regular payout, and be entitled to true-odds payout if hardway hits again.

Most people aren't going to bet more than a true parlay anyway, although they have that option... I would say prob 20% will or less..
wudged
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August 28th, 2014 at 11:30:11 AM permalink
delete
wudged
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August 28th, 2014 at 11:31:35 AM permalink
Quote: allinriverking

parlay is choice, player can leave the original bet there after hitting at regular payout, and be entitled to true-odds payout if hardway hits again.

Most people aren't going to bet more than a true parlay anyway, although they have that option... I would say prob 20% will or less..



Well, that is just adding to the confusion. I thought the parlay was required in order to get a true odds payout.
allinriverking
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August 28th, 2014 at 11:35:45 AM permalink
Quote: wudged

Well, that is just adding to the confusion. I thought the parlay was required in order to get a true odds payout.



when you're paid your regular hardway money, if you press your bet at payout time, and u press a lil or full parlay, that bet will receive true-odds if it hits.. If u don't press that original bet, the original bet also qualifies for true-odds. The true parlay amount is the max you can press to get true-odds, it's a limiter. I clarified my 4th post on page 1... sorry for confusion
wudged
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August 28th, 2014 at 11:37:50 AM permalink
The OP says

Quote: allinriverking

Get paid true-odds on your winning Hardway Bet, if you parlayed all or part of the regular winning payout that Hardway Bet won.



that is where I got confused. It does not mention that the original bet with no pressure is also eligible.
allinriverking
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August 28th, 2014 at 11:39:22 AM permalink
Quote: wudged

The OP says



that is where I got confused. It does not mention that the original bet with no pressure is also eligible.



my 4th post on page 1 I tried to clarify that before people really started polling..
Buzzard
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August 28th, 2014 at 11:42:57 AM permalink
Damn troublemakers ! How dare they vote against without explaining why. The nerve of some people !
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
allinriverking
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August 28th, 2014 at 11:46:11 AM permalink
I edited it as follows:

EDIT: Get paid true-odds on your winning Hardway Bet, if your Hardway Bet hits a second time. Maximum amount that may be bet to win true-odds payout is limited to an amount equal to a true parlay. EDIT:
allinriverking
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August 28th, 2014 at 11:48:55 AM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

Damn troublemakers ! How dare they vote against without explaining why. The nerve of some people !



I wish I read my first post better before releasing it, sorry people.. It's easy when you know how something works, and you accidentally leave a part out as you are explaining..
mustangsally
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August 28th, 2014 at 11:51:35 AM permalink
Quote: wudged

that is where I got confused. It does not mention that the original bet with no pressure is also eligible.

do not most hardway players after a win do one of two things with their winning hardway.

leave it be to win again or increase it to win again

I hardly have ever seen a winning hardway taken down (not that I pay attention to those bets as I never bet them)
after a win (I have seen it moved to another hardway)

so now the casino pays true odds after a win and the bet does not have to be increased.
I still do not get why?

and you can easily explain this to players on the fly during the game and cause no confusion?
I am now really confused about this bet.

why again does the casino want this bet?

Sally
I Heart Vi Hart
allinriverking
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August 28th, 2014 at 11:55:15 AM permalink
I've been told by numerous dice players that wont play hardways, because they consider them sucker bets. They think the house edge is too high. You can reduce house edge dramatically by making a true parlay.. As well as stop players from moving a winning hardway to another, if they want that other hardway they may choose to make it out of their rail money instead of moving hardways around.
wudged
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August 28th, 2014 at 12:08:28 PM permalink
Quote: mustangsally

why again does the casino want this bet?



The edge on the original wager is still present. The goal is to increase action on the hardways bets for people who typically seldom bet them or not at all.

If the bet can't be easily explained to a forum of gambling enthusiasts, it's never going to fly in the casino.
Scotty71
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August 28th, 2014 at 12:08:53 PM permalink
Quote: mustangsally


and you can easily explain this to players on the fly during the game and cause no confusion?
I am now really confused about this bet.

why again does the casino want this bet?

Sally



I agree and that was my initial thought, even though people MIGHT understand the bet after explanation but any one unfamiliar with the bet is going to say "what" and it would slow the game down...something most casinos dont want.

1.It forces the casino to say "we'll make your odds better on the next bet since you're "free riding" and it makes them admit to the high edge on the initial bet.

2.Paying out the hard ways would take longer and slow down the game... you could never have too many break in dealers.

In pricipal I like the idea and would do it since I do play hard ways I just dont think you will get casinos too interested. In all sincerity best of luck to you on this endeavor.

Have you spoken to the bosses at Grand Victoria... they are fairly independent and maybe more willing to try a new prop bet.

To any dice enthusiasts they deal a good game with 100x odds and have a great 4k cash for craps for the shooter (all unique points have to be made) and fire bets if you like to bet on shooters. You do however pay the vig when placing buy bets.
when man determined to destroy himself he picked the was of shall and finding only why smashed it into because." — E.E. Cummings
mustangsally
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August 28th, 2014 at 12:28:58 PM permalink
Quote: allinriverking

I've been told by numerous dice players that wont play hardways, because they consider them sucker bets.

I hear this too and I think it is the public perception
as well as the Field and the odds bet I hear so often being sucker bets too.

the odds bet
I always ask about and the reason given (almost always) is it does nothing to make the bet win more often.
I think Alan Mendelson
http://www.alanbestbuys.com/
comes to mind on this for pass line odds and he has played craps longer than I have been alive, so he should know and tells others these things too.

The don't pass odds players (many) refuse to lay odds because it actually lowers their combined edge that they enjoy.
I hear this a lot too at real craps tables (not the i kind)
that is how public perception spreads.
like the common cold.

Quote: allinriverking

They think the house edge is too high. You can reduce house edge dramatically by making a true parlay..

with your new bet
and the casino will make more money from players trying to make more bets
and have better payouts so the casino can pay you each month to offer your bets.

this really sounds fishy (not to mention the aroma)

Ok
on to other interests
I got it now
Thank you
Sally
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RS
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August 28th, 2014 at 1:49:22 PM permalink
If it involves lammers, count me out. Lammers are evil.
Ahigh
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August 28th, 2014 at 2:45:18 PM permalink
Quote: allinriverking

your numbers don't make sense



So you don't understand that I can already get the same house edge for a parlay hardway if I make the first leg of the parlay acting as the banker myself, then?

The average cost for what I am suggesting is exactly equal to the bet you invented. The only difference is that I have to be able to afford to be the banker on the first bet myself in order to make that have zero cost.
aahigh.com
NowTheSerpent
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August 28th, 2014 at 2:56:16 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

The key to lowering your edge per resolution is to make the first bet with yourself.

My way:

1->11->110 and down 11/121 = 9.09% edge.

Your bet:

1->10->110 and down 11/121 = 9.09% edge.

My bet: already available in the casino.

Your bet: not.

Both bets: require parlay to work.

This goes back to the point of being able to create bets that are not on the felt. My way only works if you take the first bet with yourself. Most people don't understand how to do this.



How do you bet that first $1 "with yourself" and turn it into $11 using only what's now available?
Ahigh
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August 28th, 2014 at 3:22:31 PM permalink
Quote: NowTheSerpent

How do you bet that first $1 "with yourself" and turn it into $11 using only what's now available?



If you (a) accept that you're going to lose in the long run and (b) book your own bets for the first leg of the parlay, you simply place chips in special positions on the rail and you bank your own action.

So I would suggest you put four chips next to each other if you want to play all the hardways. As soon as one of them hits, you take ten more dollars and throw in an $11 for a hard 6/8 or 8 more dollars to make $9 for the 4/10 when it hits and have the house book the next leg.

It's just that simple. You won't win or lose any money (in the long run) on the bets that you act as the banker for compared to 2.78% edge loss per roll if you have the house book that leg. The bets only go to the felt once the first hit is made.

You act as both the player and casino/banker for the first hits. If you always parlay, and you accept that you will not win on these in the long run (the most difficult part for some hardway betters to accept), you will realize that you are saving 2.78% of $4, $3, $2, or $1 action in the case when you would normally have those chips on the hardway bets and instead just have them on the rail.

IE: if the ONLY purpose of the initial dollar is to fund a parlay, why not bank those bets yourself to save the money? In every single case that the hardway parlay strategy would win, you will win MORE money with this technique. You can lose more using the technique compared to booking the first leg of the parlay on the felt. But not in the long run, only in the short run.
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Buzzard
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August 28th, 2014 at 3:31:13 PM permalink
Careful with those mind bets. Ahigh. Some people think you have already lost.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
petroglyph
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August 28th, 2014 at 3:39:18 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

If you (a) accept that you're going to lose in the long run and (b) book your own bets for the first leg of the parlay, you simply place chips in special positions on the rail and you bank your own action.

So I would suggest you put four chips next to each other if you want to play all the hardways. As soon as one of them hits, you take ten more dollars and throw in an $11 for a hard 6/8 or 8 more dollars to make $9 for the 4/10 when it hits and have the house book the next leg.

It's just that simple. You won't win or lose any money (in the long run) on the bets that you act as the banker for compared to 2.78% edge loss per roll if you have the house book that leg. The bets only go to the felt once the first hit is made.

You act as both the player and casino/banker for the first hits. If you always parlay, and you accept that you will not win on these in the long run (the most difficult part for some hardway betters to accept), you will realize that you are saving 2.78% of $4, $3, $2, or $1 action in the case when you would normally have those chips on the hardway bets and instead just have them on the rail.

IE: if the ONLY purpose of the initial dollar is to fund a parlay, why not bank those bets yourself to save the money? In every single case that the hardway parlay strategy would win, you will win MORE money with this technique. You can lose more using the technique compared to booking the first leg of the parlay on the felt. But not in the long run, only in the short run.





And when you book the first leg yourself, you save a lot when they come easy
Ahigh
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August 28th, 2014 at 4:05:28 PM permalink
I could chart out the graph for this strategy compared to the other for random numbers. It could be quite a long time before you saw the advantage of one over the other. But guaranteed my technique will save money in the long run. In fact, it should the same amount of money, in the long run, as the bet being proposed in the OP assuming you take the bet down after the first parlay hit and/or consider resolution at the same conditions (EG: after first parlay hit).
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allinriverking
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August 28th, 2014 at 4:49:52 PM permalink
Quote: wudged

The edge on the original wager is still present. The goal is to increase action on the hardways bets for people who typically seldom bet them or not at all.

If the bet can't be easily explained to a forum of gambling enthusiasts, it's never going to fly in the casino.



Explanation on live game:

Bet a hardway - win as normal when it hits the first time, leave it play or press it up, up to a true parlay, and win true-odds if the hardway hits a second time. After a hardway wins true-odds, the bet starts over as a regular hardway.
allinriverking
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August 28th, 2014 at 4:59:56 PM permalink
Why would a casino want these?

1) 2 to 4 out of 10 people that don't play hardways say they will play these hardways (depends on which poll)

2) Players that normally move their hardway to another one after being paid or more apt to leave that bet knowing they are going to receive more money if it hits. If they still want the other hardway they will get it out of their bankroll.

3) It's something different to offer players, that benefits the player. This may make players bring their action to a place that at least attempts to give something to their players.
AxelWolf
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August 28th, 2014 at 6:57:23 PM permalink
Quote: allinriverking

I've been told by numerous dice players that wont play hardways, because they consider them sucker bets. They think the house edge is too high. You can reduce house edge dramatically by making a true parlay.. As well as stop players from moving a winning hardway to another, if they want that other hardway they may choose to make it out of their rail money instead of moving hardways around.

It wont help the casino that much. People usually have x amount of money to gamble with. If people are already betting the hardways bets why mess with them? If you encourage non hardways bettors to bet this because it has a lower HA. that will just take away from other bets they might make. Offering new games or bets wont magically add money to peoples pockets when they first come.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
allinriverking
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August 28th, 2014 at 7:23:03 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

It wont help the casino that much. People usually have x amount of money to gamble with. If people are already betting the hardways bets why mess with them? If you encourage non hardways bettors to bet this because it has a lower HA. that will just take away from other bets they might make. Offering new games or bets wont magically add money to peoples pockets when they first come.



You're right everyone only plays a set amount they bring with them to the casino, there are defintely no atm's at casinos either, and there is no reason to invent any new bets or games because people only want to play what they are familiar with.... (sarc)
allinriverking
allinriverking
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August 28th, 2014 at 7:25:06 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

It wont help the casino that much. People usually have x amount of money to gamble with. If people are already betting the hardways bets why mess with them? If you encourage non hardways bettors to bet this because it has a lower HA. that will just take away from other bets they might make. Offering new games or bets wont magically add money to peoples pockets when they first come.



And right it will take money away from the bets they are placing that has no house edge or lower edge to begin with...
Buzzard
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August 28th, 2014 at 8:10:55 PM permalink
Reason for not adding this bet " NEVER SMARTEN UP A CHUMP " !


For further information see : We will boycott 6/5 BJ in 2004 and how successful that was below.

http://www.vegaschatter.com/story/2014/3/26/12532/9166/vegas-travel/Venetian+And+Palazzo+Make+The+Move+To+6%3A5+Blackjack
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
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