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mustangsally
mustangsally
Joined: Mar 29, 2011
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August 28th, 2014 at 11:51:35 AM permalink
Quote: wudged

that is where I got confused. It does not mention that the original bet with no pressure is also eligible.

do not most hardway players after a win do one of two things with their winning hardway.

leave it be to win again or increase it to win again

I hardly have ever seen a winning hardway taken down (not that I pay attention to those bets as I never bet them)
after a win (I have seen it moved to another hardway)

so now the casino pays true odds after a win and the bet does not have to be increased.
I still do not get why?

and you can easily explain this to players on the fly during the game and cause no confusion?
I am now really confused about this bet.

why again does the casino want this bet?

Sally
I Heart Vi Hart
allinriverking
allinriverking
Joined: Feb 3, 2010
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August 28th, 2014 at 11:55:15 AM permalink
I've been told by numerous dice players that wont play hardways, because they consider them sucker bets. They think the house edge is too high. You can reduce house edge dramatically by making a true parlay.. As well as stop players from moving a winning hardway to another, if they want that other hardway they may choose to make it out of their rail money instead of moving hardways around.
wudged
wudged
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August 28th, 2014 at 12:08:28 PM permalink
Quote: mustangsally

why again does the casino want this bet?



The edge on the original wager is still present. The goal is to increase action on the hardways bets for people who typically seldom bet them or not at all.

If the bet can't be easily explained to a forum of gambling enthusiasts, it's never going to fly in the casino.
Scotty71
Scotty71
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August 28th, 2014 at 12:08:53 PM permalink
Quote: mustangsally


and you can easily explain this to players on the fly during the game and cause no confusion?
I am now really confused about this bet.

why again does the casino want this bet?

Sally



I agree and that was my initial thought, even though people MIGHT understand the bet after explanation but any one unfamiliar with the bet is going to say "what" and it would slow the game down...something most casinos dont want.

1.It forces the casino to say "we'll make your odds better on the next bet since you're "free riding" and it makes them admit to the high edge on the initial bet.

2.Paying out the hard ways would take longer and slow down the game... you could never have too many break in dealers.

In pricipal I like the idea and would do it since I do play hard ways I just dont think you will get casinos too interested. In all sincerity best of luck to you on this endeavor.

Have you spoken to the bosses at Grand Victoria... they are fairly independent and maybe more willing to try a new prop bet.

To any dice enthusiasts they deal a good game with 100x odds and have a great 4k cash for craps for the shooter (all unique points have to be made) and fire bets if you like to bet on shooters. You do however pay the vig when placing buy bets.
when man determined to destroy himself he picked the was of shall and finding only why smashed it into because." E.E. Cummings
mustangsally
mustangsally
Joined: Mar 29, 2011
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August 28th, 2014 at 12:28:58 PM permalink
Quote: allinriverking

I've been told by numerous dice players that wont play hardways, because they consider them sucker bets.

I hear this too and I think it is the public perception
as well as the Field and the odds bet I hear so often being sucker bets too.

the odds bet
I always ask about and the reason given (almost always) is it does nothing to make the bet win more often.
I think Alan Mendelson
http://www.alanbestbuys.com/
comes to mind on this for pass line odds and he has played craps longer than I have been alive, so he should know and tells others these things too.

The don't pass odds players (many) refuse to lay odds because it actually lowers their combined edge that they enjoy.
I hear this a lot too at real craps tables (not the i kind)
that is how public perception spreads.
like the common cold.

Quote: allinriverking

They think the house edge is too high. You can reduce house edge dramatically by making a true parlay..

with your new bet
and the casino will make more money from players trying to make more bets
and have better payouts so the casino can pay you each month to offer your bets.

this really sounds fishy (not to mention the aroma)

Ok
on to other interests
I got it now
Thank you
Sally
I Heart Vi Hart
RS
RS
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August 28th, 2014 at 1:49:22 PM permalink
If it involves lammers, count me out. Lammers are evil.
Ahigh
Ahigh
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August 28th, 2014 at 2:45:18 PM permalink
Quote: allinriverking

your numbers don't make sense



So you don't understand that I can already get the same house edge for a parlay hardway if I make the first leg of the parlay acting as the banker myself, then?

The average cost for what I am suggesting is exactly equal to the bet you invented. The only difference is that I have to be able to afford to be the banker on the first bet myself in order to make that have zero cost.
NowTheSerpent
NowTheSerpent
Joined: Sep 30, 2011
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August 28th, 2014 at 2:56:16 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

The key to lowering your edge per resolution is to make the first bet with yourself.

My way:

1->11->110 and down 11/121 = 9.09% edge.

Your bet:

1->10->110 and down 11/121 = 9.09% edge.

My bet: already available in the casino.

Your bet: not.

Both bets: require parlay to work.

This goes back to the point of being able to create bets that are not on the felt. My way only works if you take the first bet with yourself. Most people don't understand how to do this.



How do you bet that first $1 "with yourself" and turn it into $11 using only what's now available?
Ahigh
Ahigh
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August 28th, 2014 at 3:22:31 PM permalink
Quote: NowTheSerpent

How do you bet that first $1 "with yourself" and turn it into $11 using only what's now available?



If you (a) accept that you're going to lose in the long run and (b) book your own bets for the first leg of the parlay, you simply place chips in special positions on the rail and you bank your own action.

So I would suggest you put four chips next to each other if you want to play all the hardways. As soon as one of them hits, you take ten more dollars and throw in an $11 for a hard 6/8 or 8 more dollars to make $9 for the 4/10 when it hits and have the house book the next leg.

It's just that simple. You won't win or lose any money (in the long run) on the bets that you act as the banker for compared to 2.78% edge loss per roll if you have the house book that leg. The bets only go to the felt once the first hit is made.

You act as both the player and casino/banker for the first hits. If you always parlay, and you accept that you will not win on these in the long run (the most difficult part for some hardway betters to accept), you will realize that you are saving 2.78% of $4, $3, $2, or $1 action in the case when you would normally have those chips on the hardway bets and instead just have them on the rail.

IE: if the ONLY purpose of the initial dollar is to fund a parlay, why not bank those bets yourself to save the money? In every single case that the hardway parlay strategy would win, you will win MORE money with this technique. You can lose more using the technique compared to booking the first leg of the parlay on the felt. But not in the long run, only in the short run.
Buzzard
Buzzard
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August 28th, 2014 at 3:31:13 PM permalink
Careful with those mind bets. Ahigh. Some people think you have already lost.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet

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