FIRST of two new dice games for comments

Do I have this right:

I make a pass line bet. On the come out, I roll a 6 and the point in established. Then I roll a 4, then an 8. On my third roll I hit the 6. Is the result of that roll sequence a push for my pass line bet?

Quote: Paradigm

Do I have this right:

I make a pass line bet. On the come out, I roll a 6 and the point in established. Then I roll a 4, then an 8. On my third roll I hit the 6. Is the result of that roll sequence a push for my pass line bet?

You have made the point, but your pass line bet is a push ... yes,
(and it is back to a come our roll with the same shooter just like Casino Craps).

but NOTE: a place to win bet would have still won 7:6 and a hardways bet would have won if the 6 was a hard six.
Only the pass (and don't pass) follow the "push on point made and unresolved 7" rule during the 2nd chance phase.

Had you rolled a 4, then an 8, then a 7, then hit a 6 ....
It would be like the 7 was never rolled as far as your pass bet,
you would have won your pass bet and been paid 1:1
(and after the "1st seven" you could have made an odds bet that would have paid 6:5),
the 7 would NOT have ended the round and the same shooter would still be rolling.

Think of the 2nd Chance Phase as an "extra phase" (see the Phase Flow Chart tag),
with all other bets working the same and a pass line bet getting a break on a 7
(but the tradeoff is that it is a push and doesn't get paid during the 2nd Chance Phase).

I do not think it has any chance. Players want to win when they make their point, not push. I think this kills the game before it even gets a sniff. I don't think the casinos will want it as it takes more rolls to resolve the main bet with no significant increase in house edge.

i think i see a flaw in your game. after the point is established, make a bankroll sized place/buy bet on that number. if the shooter hits the first 7, then take it down. it can't lose.

Quote: SOOPOO

I do not think it has any chance. Players want to win when they make their point, not push. I think this kills the game before it even gets a sniff. I don't think the casinos will want it as it takes more rolls to resolve the main bet with no significant increase in house edge.

Hope your wrong ...

remember that making the point is only a push during a "2nd Chance Phase",
but if the point is made during the Point Phase making the point pays the same as Casino Craps.

There is a version 2 (but not shown yet so I didn't confuse people)
where making a point during the 2nd Chance Phase pays 1:5
(but the Come-out Phase payouts are slightly different - 1:1 for an 11 and 2:5 for a 7).
The "1st seven" is still allowed as an unresolved roll for a pass bet.
This way a player can accumulate an extra buck for each point made before a 1st seven,
then once a seven is rolled the game is right back to being the same as Casino Craps and a point would payout as usual.

The whole idea is to require TWO sevens before it is considered a 7-Out, not just ONE, giving the shooter more rolls.
(and there had to be some trade offs to keep it from being a HUGE advantage for a player)

Quote: NewToCraps

Hope your wrong ...

remember that making the point is only a push during a "2nd Chance Phase",
but if the point is made during the Point Phase making the point pays the same as Casino Craps.

I think players will just want to ply the 'Point phase', which is......... craps.
But good luck!

Quote: Stoney

i think i see a flaw in your game. after the point is established, make a bankroll sized place/buy bet on that number. if the shooter hits the first 7, then take it down. it can't lose.

The "1st seven" being unresolved rule only applies to the pass and don't pass bets.

If you didn't play the line bets, the game is the same as Casino Craps,
therefore, a bankroll sized place/buy bet on the number would lose on the 1st seven.

I'm the type of player who doesn't play the pass line - I only make place bets after waiting about 4 - 5 rolls and usually only on 6 and 8.
(kinda boring, I know, but I can play alot longer and have done fairly well usually making about 3K on a starting bankroll of 1K after about 6 hours of play).
"Usually" being defined as 3 out of 5 times playing.

2nd Chance Craps would be no different for me,
(other than watching each shooter having more fun cause their roll lasts longer).

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: NewToCraps

Hope your wrong ...

remember that making the point is only a push during a "2nd Chance Phase",
but if the point is made during the Point Phase making the point pays the same as Casino Craps.

I think players will just want to ply the 'Point phase', which is......... craps.
But good luck!

There could be alot of truth to your comment ... but I still have hope for the idea.
Thanks for your comments

This will never see the light if day.

It's complicated. Yeah, I realize craps is complicated, but this is more so. Plus, it lowers the house edge. Why would a casino want that? Even if you gave it away, the casino would still have to train their dealers, and train the players. And if both of those are successful, if players like it, it'll cost the casino money in a lower house edge. Why bother?

Plus, no come and no don't come? Those are very important bets to many players.

I hate to say it, but like I told you at the first ShuffleMaster demo, the problem with your ideas can be traced to your name. You're STILL too new to craps.



On a side note, good job with all the formatting code work. I bet that took a while to do....

Quote: DJTeddyBear

This will never see the light if day.

It's complicated. Yeah, I realize craps is complicated, but this is more so. Plus, it lowers the house edge. Why would a casino want that? Even if you gave it away, the casino would still have to train their dealers, and train the players. And if both of those are successful, if players like it, it'll cost the casino money in a lower house edge. Why bother?

Plus, no come and no don't come? Those are very important bets to many players.

I hate to say it, but like I told you at the first ShuffleMaster demo, the problem with your ideas can be traced to your name. You're STILL too new to craps.



On a side note, good job with all the formatting code work. I bet that took a while to do....

Thanks for the comment on the formatting code ... yes it was a task.

Regarding the other comments - the type of statements you make give me the additional incentive to sell the idea,
because it is so simple and follows common Casino Craps principals and methods,
(but without any gum chewing when I demo it).

Step back and look again at what I have done in putting together this new game
(maybe look at the Phase Flow Chart and see how it's VERY simple, if you truly understand Craps)
then tell me I'm STILL too new to craps.

Quote: SOOPOO

I do not think it has any chance. Players want to win when they make their point, not push. I think this kills the game before it even gets a sniff. I don't think the casinos will want it as it takes more rolls to resolve the main bet with no significant increase in house edge.

+1 here.......unfortunately, I don't see what this game "fixes" about craps as it is today. Players accept that rolling a 7 is a bad result after establishing a point. That isn't something that is broken and needs improvement. This game does not have a chance in my humble opinion.

Quote: Paradigm

+1 here.......unfortunately, I don't see what this game "fixes" about craps as it is today. Players accept that rolling a 7 is a bad result after establishing a point. That isn't something that is broken and needs improvement. This game does not have a chance in my humble opinion.

The idea started when I was one of two players at a table,

I rolled a point then seven-out,
My friend rolled a point then seven-out,
I rolled a point then a seven-out,
he rolled a point, one crap number and a seven-out,
I rolled a point and bet heavy on all place numbers because it couldn't happen again ,
then I rolled a seven-out.

I decided then that Casico Craps has a problem
It takes two rolls of a point number to win (one to establish it and one to make it - BUT only one seven to lose)
So I set out to fix that inequality and figure a game tha takes two sevens to lose.

IMHO - gonna be LOVED by the average Craps player (but I have a bit of a bias).

But the only opinion that counts is the House opinion

Quote: NewToCraps

You have made the point, but your pass line bet is a push ... yes,
(and it is back to a come our roll with the same shooter just like Casino Craps).

but NOTE: a place to win bet would have still won 7:6 and a hardways bet would have won if the 6 was a hard six.
Only the pass (and don't pass) follow the "push on point made and unresolved 7" rule during the 2nd chance phase.

at first I thought you must be smokin' and drinkin' something to remove all common sense from your mind.

Hey, this could be a good thing for many.
I set this up quickly in Excel to see how the average length of the shooters hand becomes as it seems to me
you fear the fast 7out and losing the dice makes Craps an ugly game to play.
my pics

Craps
8.52551 = mean # of rolls (includes the 7out)
6 = median
mode = 3 (with 2 a very close second)
mean # of come out rolls per hand = 2.52551

Your Muligans Craps (if I understood your flow chart)
20.26 = mean # of rolls
15 = median (actually 16)
mode = 7 (with 8 now a very close second)
mean # of come out rolls per hand = 4.22

So good job in succeeding in lengthening the # of rolls for a shooter's hand
yea!

I would suggest, because the casino will freak out on pushing the pass/don't too many times, Sally's Casino would!
is to force the players to make the odds bet as soon as the point is set.
really a place bet instead of the odds is made where the odds bet goes
both bets are contract bets. Now an interest in the point is established!
more EV per roll for the casino

If they do not want to make the place odds bet, they lose their line bet. simple
just following the many poker games that are out there all over the world if you want to still play make another bet

Where is your demo for this game?
maybe more that can play it would enjoy it

have fun!
Sally

Quote: DJTeddyBear

This will never see the light if day.

.......Plus, it lowers the house edge.........
....... And if both of those are successful, if players like it, it'll cost the casino money in a lower house edge. Why bother?

Plus, no come and no don't come? Those are very important bets to many players.

Assuming most players that are line bet players know that you get a lower house edge by taking full odds.
Assuming that most casinos offer 3X-4X-5X odds

Go back and look at the House Edge tabs:

Casino Craps Pass Bet 0.37%
2nd Chance Craps Pass Bet 0.41%

Casino Craps Don't Pass Bet 0.27%
2nd Chance Craps Don't Pass Bet 0.34%

I have them slightly highr to make the House more,
but keeping it still close to Casino Craps
and still very low in gaming terms for the players

Quote: NewToCraps

The idea started when I was one of two players at a table,

I rolled a point then seven-out,
My friend rolled a point then seven-out,
I rolled a point then a seven-out,
he rolled a point, one crap number and a seven-out,
I rolled a point and bet heavy on all place numbers because it couldn't happen again ,
then I rolled a seven-out.

I decided then that Casico Craps has a problem

No, the problem I see is you were making the wrong bets
fighting against the game of Craps and the math.

at regular Craps the 3rd roll is the most common roll to 7 out on followed very closely by roll #2
It is what it is.
Happens to all of us

Just think of all the money you would have won by laying against each point number
I always count my winnings and never think of all the winnings I could have had

Game Demo please!
Sally

Quote: mustangsally

If they do not want to make the place odds bet, they lose their line bet. simple
just following the many poker games that are out there all over the world if you want to still play make another bet

Where is your demo for this game?
maybe more that can play it would enjoy it

have fun!
Sally

Thanks for the analysis .... ps love the term "muligans craps".
Just put this together ... only submitted for patent yesterday,
the forum was my first exposure to get feed back.

The "Problem" is also solved by sitting out the come out roll and betting the Come bet immediately thereafter. Or betting the Come as well as your Pass Line bet as soon as the point was established. There are lots of current ways in the game to protect yourself from "Point Seven Out"

You can pick any sequence of bad events and say "that there stinks about a game".......of course the 3rd guy at that table that just bet the Come after every point was established is up 3 units and loving it so far.

Your solution is to take a current winning sequence of events, make it a push in order a avoid the pain of making a point and losing when you subsequently roll your first 7. It won't work.......trust what you are reading here......listen to the collective wisdom of the masses here, they are more sophisticated than your average player and not your target audience, but they are a smart group. Take in the criticism, refine the concept if that is possible or find the next one.

If you want to fix craps, find a way to play the game on a BJ sized table and still have a game that has the same camaraderie. Fix the labor and the space problem that the game currently has in a way that players will accept......that is a game that could work and solves a problem for the house.

Quote: Paradigm

If you want to fix craps, find a way to play the game on a BJ sized table and still have a game that has the same camaraderie. Fix the labor and the space problem that the game currently has in a way that players will accept......that is a game that could work and solves a problem for the house.

To be honest ... I think the best market for the game is for iGames, a home compter or bubble craps,
which with the current USPTO problem with felt games, my patent is written for EGDs.

Not much camaraderie in single player electronic games, although a bubble craps game may have some.

BUT, most players want to stand by a big table, touch the dice, throw the dice and HATE it when they seven out
(whether after one roll or multiple rolls).
If played on a big table, with touchable and throwable dice, this game gives that player a
SECOND CHANCE that adds to the camaraderie of all right way players NOT LOSING on that 1st Seven.

A free 7out, no cost to players or so to say. I don't know about Vegas, but here on East coast you can't get to the table, that's how popular the game is. With free 7 out you'll have to make an appointment one week in advance. I predict factories will close down due to the fact that everyone wil be shooting dice.

Quote: Dicenor33

A free 7out, no cost to players or so to say. I don't know about Vegas, but here on East coast you can't get to the table, that's how popular the game is. With free 7 out you'll have to make an appointment one week in advance. I predict factories will close down due to the fact that everyone wil be shooting dice.

I like hearing theses types of comments ...

Quote: NewToCraps

... I decided then that Casico Craps has a problem.
It takes two rolls of a point number to win (one to establish it and one to make it - BUT only one seven to lose)
So I set out to fix that inequality and figure a game tha takes two sevens to lose.

But doesn't your change mean you need to hit the point twice after establishing it? That's three hits of the point before getting paid!

" But the only opinion that counts is the House opinion "

SAY NO MORE... SAY NO MORE ....

CAN i GET A HIT ON WHAT YOU ARE SMOKING.

Quote: Buzzard

" But the only opinion that counts is the House opinion "

Buzzard. The anti "quote" button pusher... haha

I never understood your hatred for that button, but to each his own lol

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Quote: NewToCraps

... I decided then that Casico Craps has a problem.
It takes two rolls of a point number to win (one to establish it and one to make it - BUT only one seven to lose)
So I set out to fix that inequality and figure a game tha takes two sevens to lose.

But doesn't your change mean you need to hit the point twice after establishing it? That's three hits of the point before getting paid!

You need to realize that I am not new to craps anymore ... I wouldn't present a game with a flaw like that.
The answer is NO, you don't HAVE to hit the point twice after establising it (three times total) !

Once in the Point Phase you get paid for Pass Bets (same payouts as Casino Craps),
to get to the Point Phase you need to roll the "1st seven".

So, you COULD roll the Point Number once (to establish it),
then roll any number other than the Point Number an unlimited number of times,
as soon as a "1st seven" is rolled, you move to the Point Phase
and then the game is exactly like Casino Craps.

In this example, you have rolled the Point Number once (to establish it),
a Seven once and then can get paid for a second roll of a Point Number(making it).
BUT, the neat thing is if you rolled a Seven, it isn't a Seven-Out, you keep rolling
and still have the opportunity to get paid your Pass Bet (and Odds) for a Point Number roll.

Good observation by mustangsally...

Quote: mustandsally

...force the players to make the odds bet as soon as the point is set.
really a place bet instead of the odds is made where the odds bet goes
both bets are contract bets. Now an interest in the point is established!
more EV per roll for the casino

The only reason I wouldn't have the 2nd Chance "forced Place bet" in the location of an Odds Bet is because it could cause confusion for players (and some dealers) as to what the payout should be for the bet in that placement (A Place Bet payout in the 2nd Chance Phase or an Odds Bet payout in the Point Phase)

If you feel like you miss out during the 2nd Chance Phase by not getting a payout when the Point is made,
just initiate a Place bet (not forced) on the Point Number and get that payout. I know it is a fraction less than an Odds Bet,
(more EV for the House), but once again i emphasize ...
the neat thing is if you rolled a Seven, it isn't a Seven-Out, you keep rolling
and still have the opportunity to get paid your Pass Bet (and Odds) for a Point Number roll.

Someone help me ...

I'm not the best at math, so would a math whiz (many out here)
do an anlysis of what the overall House edge becomes when
during the 2nd Chance Phase a player initiates a Place Bet on the Point Number in addition to their Pass Bet,
and the Point is made with their original Pass Bet being a push.
(please show all three possible examples 4 or 10, 5 or 9 and 6 or 8)

Then I will have House edge figures to post for those who say they don't like
the fact that Pass Bet is a push during the 2nd Chance Phase.
(they can still get a payout, but just a higher House edge
than in the Point Phase with an Odds Bet which it is being compared to).

" every shooter is guaranteed a longer roll. "

Why is that a good thing ? Takes a shooter longer to win, push, whatever ?

How can the "boys " like that ? Will a shooter tip in the middle of a roll ?

I think I am like most players (other than those who choose to never be the shooter),
I want my turn of being the shooter to last as LONG as possible (I really enjoy being the shooter).

In fact, isn't a long roll an important factor in winning at Craps,
(THE most important being that you make the right bets at the right time).

If the ONLY bet you make is a Pass Bet, yes it will take you longer to get to a payout,
but I usually see MANY other wagers initiated for MANY other bets when I play.
For all those Bets it doesn't take any longer to win or whatever,
BUT a shooter will enjoy rolling for a longer time.

As far as the 'boys" ... I see most tips being made by initiating "two way" Bets during a roll
or when a player leaves the table, not as much at the end of a roll, so no difference with this game.

Besides, I'm selfish when it comes to wanting to "control" the game as a shooter,
and when I have more fun, I feel more compelled to tip more (which I typically tip during a roll
with two way Bets and upon leaving the table, and the tips add up to about as much as I tip at a restaurant - 20%).

.....

Quote: NewToCraps

...what the overall House edge becomes when
during the 2nd Chance Phase a player initiates a Place Bet on the Point Number in addition to their Pass Bet...

Overall? Those are separate bets. The edge should never be combined.

Quote: vegas702

I agree most everybody likes longer vs shorter rolls, especially people who have a bunch of place bets. Longer rolls are good

Except, (unless I misunderstood), a seven-push, is still a loss for place bets.

Quote: NewToCraps

I think I am like most players (other than those who choose to never be the shooter),
I want my turn of being the shooter to last as LONG as possible (I really enjoy being the shooter).

I love shooting. I hate waiting to shoot. Your game adds a ton of time waiting to shoot. While the 'waiting phase' is a 'time out' I am not interested in. So the longer rolls are not as interesting, and you get fewer of them.
Let's move on to game number two!

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Overall? Those are separate bets. The edge should never be combined.

Over the last year I've learned alot about Craps and know the game well, but like I said, I haven't learned the math or statisical analysis side of games ...

I was trying to see if there is a way to compare the House edge (in an apples to apples situation) after a Come-out Phase of:

A) a Pass Bet including full odds (with it being after the Come-out Phase it would really be a Put Bet with Odds) and
B) a "2nd Chance" Pass Bet (which is a push), but including a Place Bet of an amount equivalent to the amount in A) above.

I know in some ways they are apples to oranges but, it might be helpful to have that info for those who would play it that way.

I thought I would put it out there to see if someone would calculate it. (Not sure I explained it right when I first asked it).

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Except, (unless I misunderstood), a seven-push, is still a loss for place bets.

To clarify for you Dave, the Bets that are a push on a 1st Seven (your term seven-push) in the 2nd Chance Phase are only Line Bets.
So, Place to Win Bets would lose on both a 1st Seven OR a Seven-out.

Single roll bets stay SINGLE roll bets. Although Field and Hardways Bets are resolved by both a 1st Seven OR a Seven-out, I do have a version where during the 2nd Chance Phase a Field Bet is unresolved with a 1st Seven roll and thus becomes a multiple roll bet and a Hardways Bet is unresolved by a 1st Seven (BUT that version comes later).

But for now, all available Bets, other than Line Bets,of the game are played exactly like Casino Craps ...
That's what makes it so simple to understand.

SUMMARY IN 100 WORDS OR LESS:
It is Casino Craps without Come Bets and Odds, Don't Come Bets and Odds,
Put Bets and Odds and any of the side bets out there (obviously).
Line Bets are unresolved on a 1st Seven roll after a Point is established and
Line Bets are a push on the Point being Made before the 1st seven is rolled.
After a 1st Seven roll the game is in a Point Phase that is just like Casino Craps.

The idea of the game is to offer a "second chance", a "muligan" (mustangsally term) a "it doesn't count" roll for that 1st seven, thus giving a second chance to Make the Point during each shooters turn. It also allows the shooter to enjoy a longer roll.

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: NewToCraps

I think I am like most players (other than those who choose to never be the shooter),
I want my turn of being the shooter to last as LONG as possible (I really enjoy being the shooter).

I love shooting. I hate waiting to shoot. Your game adds a ton of time waiting to shoot. While the 'waiting phase' is a 'time out' I am not interested in. So the longer rolls are not as interesting, and you get fewer of them.
Let's move on to game number two!

That is a draw back to the longer shooter time aspect of the game ... (if it could only be a longer shooter time for all the GOOD shooters and then ME also).

OK ... game number two ... I'm finishing up the writing of the specifications and putting my patent application in tomorrow, I'll post it here late tomorrow ... although it is one very simple change as a variation to Casino Craps, that one change results in ALOT of other dependent changes and I doubt that 1% of people here would have any interest in it (too radically different from Casino Craps). But it may have a market in the electronic Craps industry of the future.

Interesting humdinger for craps (to paraphrase our Mike....)

Knowing the odds of "getting to the show," (even G2E), it ain't easy.

I will say:
1. Gamblers are stubborn creatures of habit, sticking with the tried and true, the very familiar. Crap players in particular, at the opposite end of Carnival game players, dislike upset or great changes. The Fire bet and All Tall/All Small made it as add-ons, with no interference in base crap game procedure at all.
2. Craps is tough to deal. I dealt it for years, much preferred dealing Pai Gow. Dealers and operators will push back hard on this, I believe strongly.
3. Casino operators will look at the "cost per roll/hand" very closely. They don't want to turn craps into a "stay forever" game, which is their criticism of PGP. The base game of craps is free to the casino to offer (public domain, it existed in American cities and gambling halls since WW1), and any new crap game would have to get red hot to replace the existing - and free - crap tables.

I will say it's great to come up with new game ideas, but that scenario exists without the guarantee, or even the probability of a game making it to the casino floor. At best, it is a long shot (a looooong shot), a very small possibility after a huge investment. You have to strike oil, where just about every gambler and gaming exec says about it, "Yeah, wow, that'll work, that'll sell, I gotta play/offer it," and to really play or offer it.

If one didn't design games, life would be lesser without it, that's how it should be viewed by the designer: a calling, "the thing that I need to do" type of thing, not as a great opportunity. Design game #1, game #2, game #3, and so on, and repeat because you're compelled and refine it non-stop. Make it appear you've taken away nothing to add that wonderful humdinger. Better to have designed and lost, than never to have designed at all, with the acceptance of the small possibility of it becoming a real game after a lot of work and money invested.

Why is it that why Dan tells you that "your game at best is a looooong shot", it comes across with elegance and courteous authority? It strikes the blow that you expected, but it doesn't really hurt as much because you expected it.

But when others start right out with sentence one of "It will never see the light of day" or "I don't think it has any chance", although that blow was expected, it seems to hit alot harder seeing it in the first sentence. Like meeting a friend and saying "you look sloppy and your clothes are outdated" before even saying "HI". They may be sloppy with outdated clothes, but even though that is the case, at least say HI first

Maybe Dan knows how to "sandwich" comments starting with the neutral bread, getting to the tough meat of the comment, then finishing with the neutral bread.

I guess that is part of the reason Dan has had the success he has.

Thanks for your thoughts Dan.

So Dan - when Mike uses the term humdinger, is it in a positive way or negative way?

Might be because Dan is a gentleman in a land of ruffians.

Quote: NewToCraps

Why is it that why Dan tells you that "your game at best is a looooong shot", it comes across with elegance and courteous authority?

Quote: Buzzard

Might be because Dan is a gentleman in a land of ruffians.

Maybe Buzz has the right answer. If so, I guess I'll take the moniker of "ruffian."

Quote: NewToCraps

But when others start right out with sentence one of "It will never see the light of day"

Yeah, that was me. I was saying "This gets a 'No', and here's why..." I doubt if would have been better if I gave all the reasons, and then said, "And that's why I give this game a 'No'."

Frankly, Dan has a job with Galaxy where he sees a ton of new game ideas. He has learned the art of letting people down easy. But did he let you down too easy? Is "your game at best is a looooong shot" just a sugar-coated way of saying "It will never see the light of day"?

Think about it. And also think about all the responses you got in this thread. Has any of it been positive?

Quote: NewToCraps

Why is it that why Dan tells you that "your game at best is a looooong shot", it comes across with elegance and courteous authority? It strikes the blow that you expected, but it doesn't really hurt as much because you expected it.

In NO way do I wish to discourage or offend, but I simply wish to be realistic, and I have to be realistic: the chances of a new game "x", any new game, replacing the established, popular, and reliable games that gamblers and casino operators know and trust is fairly remote.

And designers' hopes and expectations have to be in line with the real odds and real work required to bring it into live play. A new game has to be so compelling, so simple to learn to play and deal, so perfectly done across-the-board with essentially no drawbacks that it convinces casino operators and distributors that the tremendous investment is worth the gamble. From patents to laboratory math, and G2E and marketing expenses, to artwork and dealer training, to approvals in countless gaming jurisdictions, a new game has to be very compelling and essentially perfect to justify the expense to consider adopting it and releasing it.

It isn't easy to bust out a new game and become an Ethan and Joel Coen-level author, and it may seem "overnight" or "from out of nowhere" to those looking in. I will say some independent games (High Card Flush, Blackjack Switch, War Blackjack, EZ Pai Gow, et al) do become successful and get picked up, but there's years of hard work and tens of thousands of dollars invested behind them before they get released and hit big. There are a lot of games released that were designed in-house (Heads Up Hold 'em, Lucky Ladies, Texas Shootout, Emperor's Challenge for Galaxy, and tons of Bally/SHFL/SG's games are in-house by the well-known [whether the esteemed or the notorious] Roger Snow) with resources behind them, but independent games do have a shot. A small shot, but still, they have a shot with a lot of work and preparation and money and patents and math reports and relentless and maniacal perseverance and some exposure (Raving table games, pitching games to local card rooms and casinos, etc.)

Quote: NewtoCraps

But when others start right out with sentence one of "It will never see the light of day" or "I don't think it has any chance", although that blow was expected, it seems to hit alot harder seeing it in the first sentence. Like meeting a friend and saying "you look sloppy and your clothes look outdated" before even saying "HI". They may be sloppy with outdated clothes, but even though that is the case, at least say HI first

Yes, that immediate "Gong-show rejection buzzer" or knee-jerk value judgment attitude is not helpful to anyone trying to get a game going, or trying to obtain the knack of getting a game going. All snub, zero helpful advice. It is the natural gang reaction on any Internet forum. Thick skin is a huge plus for a game designer.

Quote: NewToCraps

Maybe Dan knows how to "sandwich" comments starting with the neutral bread, getting to the tough meat of the comment, then finishing with the neutral bread.

I guess that is part of the reason Dan has had the success he has.

Thanks! Let me say that while there is a lot of politics, diplomacy, and hopefully "explanation and advice over harsh dismissal" involved, it is a process that is complicated and is personally learned by the relentless designer when told the honest requirements and odds. Without getting into the technical details of math reports, patents, design tips, and dealing procedures (that's all been discussed here in this Game Inventors Corner, which really should be renamed the Game Inventors' Plaza or Boulevard), the process overview is:

- Work on a novel game design with cards/dice, and codify a Blurb on the gimmick/Humdinger/improvement.
- examine and criticize your own game - Learn and adjust (better way to implement?)/change game/re-design
- Thick skin/having fun playing around with an idea/no expectations/here goes nothing/give it a shot
- SIMPLIFY it!
- re-write dealing procedures/base artwork/base math and house edge
- remove problems/sticking points
LOOP until game design is presentable, working, and stabilized
.....
Write formal dealing procedures/artwork
File provisional patent
Get initial independent math report (called a "CRM")
If problems LOOP (re-do from top);
............
Demo game to dealers/knowledgeable people, not family/friend. If problems, loop to top, else:
Pitch game to local casinos/card rooms
If good, (they like it), get a field trial letter and apply for game approval. You pay.
If game is popular and performs properly, Get more installs/wear out shoes and tires.
Pitch to distributor to take it big.

Quote: NewtoCraps

Thanks for your thoughts Dan.

So Dan - when Mike uses the term humdinger, is it in a positive way or negative way?

Positive. A humdinger is a mechanism that makes a new game.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Maybe Buzz has the right answer. If so, I guess I'll take the moniker of "ruffian."

LOL to both Buzz and DJTeddyBear on the "ruffian" comments - the humor here is 5 star.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Yeah, that was me. I was saying "This gets a 'No', and here's why..." I doubt if would have been better if I gave all the reasons, and then said, "And that's why I give this game a 'No'."

Frankly, Dan has a job with Galaxy where he sees a ton of new game ideas. He has learned the art of letting people down easy. But did he let you down too easy? Is "your game at best is a looooong shot" just a sugar-coated way of saying "It will never see the light of day"?

Think about it. And also think about all the responses you got in this thread. Has any of it been positive?

Actually IMHO ... for me it would have been better if you gave all the reasons, then said NO. Your opinion is yours, and I can accept it, but it is the manner of presenting the "first sentence NO, without reasons " that hits me harder (that is all I am saying). It may not hit others that way, but this is my opinion.

Has any of it been positive, ... in fact, yes (go back and read them again).

Just the fact that you feel you need to prove to me that none of the responses have been positive is my point. Maybe the game will never get to a casino floor, maybe it shows that I have only known the game of craps for a year and a half (I think I have learned alot to come up with this idea ...), but somewhere in this idea there must be something has been positive, (I did appreciate you noticing the amount of time I spent on formatting code work).

Here is an example of a "fellow game inventor" comment ... I would pat this guy on the back when he tried, even though his idea may not be that grand, cause he did the same for me.

Quote: NotFromThisForum

Your idea is creative, nice try, I bet you enjoyed coming up with the idea and worked hard on developing the initial idea into something that might sell, BUT I don't think it is gonna make it, let me tell you why ...

PS - regarding your "Exciting news for Poker for Roulette" post - as I said in your post "interesting patent number 8777716", and let me add now (I should have said it then, so now I will practice what I preach) Congradulations - great job pursuing your idea, I'm sure you have spent many hours getting it to where it is at now. Getting the patent is a major accomplishment, especially with the current USPTO situation.

.....

" Yes, that immediate "Gong-show rejection buzzer" or knee-jerk value judgment attitude is not helpful to anyone trying to get a game going, or trying to obtain the knack of getting a game going. All snub, zero helpful advice. It is the natural gang reaction on any Internet forum. Thick skin is a huge plus for a game designer."

Hey, if you can not defend your game here, you have not a shot in the real world.

"Gong-show rejection buzzer" or knee-jerk " You got jerk spelled correctly Dan, but it's BUZZARD, not buzzer.

Quote: Buzzard

Hey, if you can not defend your game here, you have not a shot in the real world.

This is true. And it's great to know where you realistically stand, as stinging as it can be. But it is better to know the processes involved and why things won't work.

I can see that removing a negative on an existing game is an approach to game design (On my game, I removed the commission in EZ Pai Gow), but it has to be better than any cost put back in. In EZ Pai Gow, the Queen-high push is totally mild compared to constantly being hit with a commission every time you scratch out a win, plus you remove the delay of commission change-making.

Removing the first 7-out is good; it is to be the humdinger here. However, not getting paid on hitting the first point hit is bad, and making the game a three-cycle game (come-out, 1st shot at the point, and 2nd shot at the point) might not improve a game that isn't that simple to begin with. Craps has problems getting new players because it is already intimidating with complexity.

And I disagree with the thought that you already have to hit your point twice (once to establish it, and once to make it) versus seeing just one 7.
On the come-out, the 7 is a winner, so it really comes down to getting "one point number versus one 7," - once the point is established.

One crap game variant I look at is crapless craps. It is fairly close to regular craps, except that any number can be the point, and other variants tried this same "any number can be the point" methodology stating "this is an improvement." None took off.

Quote: Paigowdan

Removing the first 7-out is good; it is to be the humdinger here. However, not getting paid on hitting the first point hit is bad, and making the game a three-cycle game (come-out, 1st shot at the point, and 2nd shot at the point) might not improve a game that isn't that simple to begin with. Craps has problems getting new players because it is already intimidating with complexity.

Can't get the game back to a two phase game (nature of the beast),
but the 2nd Chance Phase is structured very similar to the Point Phase

Pseudo two phase explanation:

1) Come-Out Phase
2a) 2nd Chance Phase
2b) Point Phase


As far as receiving a payout during the 2nd Chance Phase, I added three versions which provide those payouts. Go check them out.

There is just no way to offer a true odds Odds Bet during the 2nd Phase and keep a House edge - the math doesn't allow it.

Quote: Paigowdan

Write formal dealing procedures/artwork
File provisional patent
Get initial independent math report (called a "CRM")
If problems LOOP (re-do from top)

I have written procedures, done artwork, filed provisional patent. No CRM yet, but I'm gonna go off and LOOP to work on the problems now ...

Here's an idea....

Offer "7 right back" insurance, or "2nd Roll Red."
It's the Big Red (any 7) that pays true odds if placed on the 2nd roll. Or even through the 3rd and 4th roll. Players think if they get past the early point stage, they're good. At true odds, it's a freebie. Costs no one anything, except the dealers on an already tough game to deal. But no biggie.

Or make a Six-Ace 7 pay true odds at any time (5:1). Bet a nickel, get a quarter, on the house. Or have a four-three 7 pay true odds.
Easy to remember: "A Three makes it free on the Red." [- In terms of HE.] Crap players LOVE true odds.

Think about it: you have $25 exposed (or $26 across), you bet a nickel "True Red" to cover it on an early roll. Get past the 2nd or 3rd roll, you think you're good at that point.

It Doesn't mess up the game, it keeps it simple, and bets are still the same, aside from the true odds bonus on the Red if on the 2nd roll.

personally, I'd make the Six-Ace Red pay 5:1 (6 for 1) to reduce the excessive HE on that bet. Craps pays as much as it does on the pass/come and all because the 7 is always alive - win or lose.

The place bets and come points that are up on box numbers get a GREAT advantage if the first 7 is ignored, - and great protest if taken down.

I think this is too tough to make work. Get a CRM and know for sure.

Quote: Paigowdan

Here's an idea....

Offer "7 right back" insurance, or "2nd Roll Red."
It's the Big Red (any 7) that pays true odds if placed on the 2nd roll. Or even through the 3rd and 4th roll. Players think if they get past the early point stage, they're good. At true odds, it's a freebie. Costs no one anything, except the dealers on an already tough game to deal. But no biggie.

Or make a Six-Ace 7 pay true odds at any time (5:1). Bet a nickel, get a quarter, on the house. Or have a four-three 7 pay true odds.
Easy to remember: "A Three makes it free on the Red." [- In terms of HE.]

Think about it: you have $25 exposed (or $26 across), you bet a nickel "True Red" to cover it on an early roll. Get past the 2nd or 3rd roll, you think you're good at that point.

Doesn't mess up the game, it keeps it simple, and bets are still the same, aside from the true odds bonus on the Red if on the 2nd roll.

personally, I'd make the Six-Ace Red pay 5:1 (6 for 1) to reduce the excessive HE on that bet. Craps pays as much as it does on the pass/come and all because the 7 is always alive - win or lose.

The place bets and come points that are up on box numbers get a GREAT advantage if the first 7 is ignored, - and great protest if taken down.

I think this is too tough to make work. Get a CRM and know for sure.

Always the voice of reason !

Always the voice of game design experience.

Damn me to hell if I were not a gambler. That's the foundation, to see it as the gambler would.

Edit: Actually, that's a bit of a lie; it is to see the game as the gambling hall operator would.....

Actually, to help fix craps....at 4:1 on the Any 7 bet, the edge is a ridiculous 16.7%
It NEEDS to be 5% to 6%.....

The Red should pay 5:1 (6 for 1) on all except if rolled 4-3. (This is because crap players believe that the 5-2 and 6-1 are the most common 7-outs. Why that is I do not know or care.....It's like being told "You know, - Royals occur most often in Diamonds...." WTF. Play to the superstitions, but give them a house edge break.....)

7-roll prob payout return
6-1 0.055556 5 0.277778
5-2 0.055556 5 0.277778
4-3 0.055556 4 0.222222
no-7 0.833333 -1 -0.833333

tot: 1.000000 -0.055556

Here is a question I have for you as a director would ask you...

Why in the world would I take one of my heavily trafficked craps table of the floor to trial this? Or if your argument would be to remove a blackjack table or something alike... Why in the world would I remove two BJ tables to put this game in?

Not taking shots, as I told you I was intersted to see your ideas... But I'm am very interested on your thoughts/answer to this question.

One thing I think every person here can agree on is that craps is NEVER going anywhere, some people live and die by it. As for the other ideas of getting rid of that negative 7, wouldn't that just replace this bad 7 with a different bad number?

Like paradigm had suggested. The key to changing craps would be to decrease the floor space and number of staff that are needed to operate the game by turning it into a game that could operate on a BJ size table with a single dealer. However, I had been told a long time ago by the former director if the trump marina that they had tried this specific idea and it failed pretty bad at there casino.

Quote: mrsuit31

Here is a question I have for you as a director would ask you...

Why in the world would I take one of my heavily trafficked craps table of the floor to trial this? Or if your argument would be to remove a blackjack table or something alike... Why in the world would I remove two BJ tables to put this game in?

No casino house or gambling hall would ever consider doing this. Old School Craps basically works just perfectly and phenomenally. No Other Casino game has the raw juice action of craps, and the ONLY reason that it is somewhat fading is because it is considered too complex/awkward for the new-gen of players; making the game more sticky, awkward, or cumbersome in any way whatsoever is a death knell, no matter how good we think "our personal improvements and touches" are.

Modern Craps was brilliantly codified around 1912 by a John H. Winn of Philadelphia, - during WW1, - and became an absolute standard in American gambling halls across the land, - as his permanent and timeless Oeuvre. You Simply Cannot Fart Around With The Game and expect to become John H. Winn #2. It simply will not happen. Bob Stupak tried, and he was as crafty as they came.

Anybody think he will not continue to pursue this nightmare ?