Anyone know the difference??

I have a basic understanding of the difference between the gaming machines in Vegas and the "video lottery class 2" terminals you see in racinos...
How does that come into play for video poker??? Does that mean if you sit in front of the wrong machine, the royal isn't possible?
I've read stories that if you're dealt 2 pair on a VLT, and discard everything, it will deal you another 2 pair...Is this true??
Is the class 2 machine even worth playing?

I am sorry that I do not have a link available for you to read but that is completely true. Unlike "real slot/video poker machines which have a chip in each machine at the racinos all decisions are made at a central computer. All the bells and whistles are for appearances only. As far as the video poker machines are concerned they are the best bet in the house of the machines. If for instance the machine is set at 98% payback, by the way racinos rarely advertise the payback schedule, if you draw a royal flush and discard everything you will receive comparable hand and will receive the royal flush payout.

in class 2 house, everything is fake
the final result is already determined before you discard any card

Quote: only1choice

Unlike "real slot/video poker machines which have a chip in each machine at the racinos all decisions are made at a central computer.

How does it matter where the decisions are made?

the decision is already made if you will receive a winning hand. skill plays no part in this type of game.

If, for example, you are dealt quads, and throw them away, the re-draw will also be quads.

If you are dealt quads, and you throw ONE or TWO of them away, you will be dealt "special" cards that act like jokers, so that you'll still have the quads you were meant to have.

Now do you understand why there is no skill involved?

IGT machines have a fairy fly across the screen to fix your cards if you can't draw to the intended win.

Quote: CrystalMath

IGT machines have a fairy fly across the screen to fix your cards if you can't draw to the intended win.

That is the most lame thing I have ever heard, I MUST PLAY THIS MACHINE NOW!!!!

Quote: only1choice

the decision is already made if you will receive a winning hand. skill plays no part in this type of game.

Yes, that I understand. But what you said earlier was different. You never said when the decision is made (relevant), just where it is made (totally irrelevant), thus my question.

On Class II machines the decision is made when you press the spin / deal button the first time. That's why the "fairy" or other mechanism comes into play if you screw up.

Though I still don't quite understand how can it fix a half-discarded Royal or Quads. Carry over to the next spin?

On Class II, they typically have unreasonably high pay tables and a bonus line. Or they don't let you throw away bad cards. In other words, it's like a pull tab.

The bonus line typically gives you some of the payout. But the actual odds of making hands are actually quite less depending on the pay table. I was passing some time at Finger Lakes and saw an incredibly good double bonus machine where the payout was easily over 100%. I won money. But I realized that these were class II because the casino wouldn't be able to offer a pay table and have the bonus line as well.

Quote: weaselman

How does it matter where the decisions are made?

Since all the VLT machines (i.e., the payouts) are tied to a central server, once the "jackpot" is distributed, the machines will continue to take player's money, but they have no chance of hitting it again (until a reset point). It's like a retailer continuing to sell scratch off tickets after someone has already hit the major prize. You could buy all the rest of the tickets, but the big prize is already gone.

Compare that to "Megabucks", with an RNG that still gives every player a chance at the jackpot on every spin, even immediately after someone hits it.

Quote: P90

Though I still don't quite understand how can it fix a half-discarded Royal or Quads. Carry over to the next spin?

First, remember that Class II are NOT doing a true deal of the cards.

Most cases where you screw things up, it can be fixed by stacking the deck before the draw.

If you screw up to the point where a stacked deck can't fix it, animation of a magical fairy crossing the screen and waving her magic wand at the cards, and, POOF! That fixes it.

How lame is that?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Most cases where you screw things up, it can be fixed by stacking the deck before the draw.

If you screw up to the point where a stacked deck can't fix it, animation of a magical fairy crossing the screen and waving her magic wand at the cards, and, POOF! That fixes it.

How lame is that?

What's the point? I mean, this seems to be harder to program than the real game. Why would they want to do it this way?

Quote: weaselman

What's the point? I mean, this seems to be harder to program than the real game. Why would they want to do it this way?

That's the law in those states.

It doesn't only apply to the video poker.

The slots are the same way, in that they don't do their own independent RNG thing. The difference is, with slots, you'd never know it because there's no draw.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

The slots are the same way, in that they don't do their own independent RNG thing. The difference is, with slots, you'd never know it because there's no draw.

I still don't understand how it matters that the RNG is not ”independent ”. If the outcome is random, it's random, regardless of where the chip that produced it is physically located. The problem with the poker game seems to be not where the RNG is, but simply that the outcome is determined before the game is started. For slots that would not be a problem (and it's not must because you could not notice that, but simply because it does not matter). Am I missing something here?

I think the missing point is that pre-determined outcomes and the implied strategy of draw poker do not mix.

With Class II video poker, there IS NO strategy.

Quote: weaselman

... For slots that would not be a problem (and it's not must because you could not notice that, but simply because it does not matter). Am I missing something here?

I think that Ayecarumba's answer a few posts higher is relevant -- the outcome is not "random" if all of the (good) prizes have already been awarded and are unavailable for you to win.

Quote: Doc

I think that Ayecarumba's answer a few posts higher is relevant -- the outcome is not "random" if all of the (good) prizes have already been awarded and are unavailable for you to win.

Yeah, that I understand. But how would it be different if each machine had its own RNG?

Quote: weaselman

Yeah, that I understand. But how would it be different if each machine had its own RNG?

The central computer doesn't just make the selections for the individual slot machines. It keeps track of an ever decreasing pool of prizes, that is replenished when exhausted. Kinda like lottery pull-tabs or scratch-offs. They are sold until sold out, or until publication of zero remaining top prizes causes their sales to stop.

Since there is no such publication for the prize pool of Class II machines, you never know if there are any top prizes remaining, or how many plays are left before the prize pool reloads.

Quote: weaselman

Yeah, that I understand. But how would it be different if each machine had its own RNG?

This, of course, is well outside my sphere of knowledge, so I am just speculating: If each machine of this type had its own RNG and decided on whether/what you won, then they would need to constantly download to each machine the information about what prizes may be awarded and what the remaining probabilities are to be. Having all that done centrally should be much easier to implement. Just a guess.

Quote: weaselman

I still don't understand how it matters that the RNG is not ”independent ”. If the outcome is random, it's random, regardless of where the chip that produced it is physically located. The problem with the poker game seems to be not where the RNG is, but simply that the outcome is determined before the game is started. For slots that would not be a problem (and it's not must because you could not notice that, but simply because it does not matter). Am I missing something here?

Two uses of independent. Each Class II machine does not have its own RNG. Rather, they communicate with a central bingo-style server that relays win information. The RNG is on the server that draws the virtual bingo balls. Those drawings are independent.

Here's a decent article on the subject.

In a nutshell:
-California v. Cabazon determined that the Cabazon indians could run a bingo game as they were sovereign and California itself ran a lottery. Since California didn't prohibit gambling they couldn't prohibit tribal gaming.
-States wanted regulation and taxation so The Indian Gaming Regulatory Act was signed into law in 1988. It allowed 3 classes:
-Class I: Any tribe in a state where gambling was completely prohibited is only permitted gambling in tribal ceremonies.
-Class II: If gambling is not prohibited in the state (e.g. the state has a lottery) then the tribe is, by default, allowed to have bingo games and non-house-banked card games.
-Class III: The tribe can negotiate compacts with the state to allow for some or all of Class III games and devices. This basically includes all types of gambling found in Vegas.
-Tribes in gaming states without Class III compacts were limited to Class II bingo-style games which, importantly, can include electronic facsimiles of bingo.
-Slot manufacturers started making replicas of slot machines and video poker that actually ran on an electronic bingo system in the back of house.

The modern Class II slots basically work as follows:
1. Everyone who starts a game (presses "Spin" for example) in a predetermined window of time, such as 20 milliseconds, is buying an electronic bingo card.
2. The machines in either a particular area or the whole casino send the buy-in information to a central server.
3. The server assigns each machine a bingo card.
4. The server uses an RNG to draw virtual bingo balls.
5. Payouts are awarded to each card based on tons of basically nonsensical bingo patterns. The total prize pool is the buy-ins minus the house take.
6. The server tells each machine which payout, if any, to award the player.
7. The machine produces a winning combination of reels/cards for the winners and a losing combination for the others.

I'm sure there are variations on the theme but the above is the basic concept.

Quote: PopCan

In a nutshell:
...
States wanted regulation and taxation so The Indian Gaming Regulatory Act was signed into law in 1988. It allowed 3 classes:
-Class I: Any tribe in a state where gambling was completely prohibited ...
-Class II: If gambling is not prohibited in the state (e.g. the state has a lottery) ...
-Class III: The tribe can negotiate compacts with the state ...
...

Am I correct in stating that the 3 classes listed here refer to classes of the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act, and are not directly related to the slot machine classes?

For what it's worth, It has been my understanding that Class III machines are true RNG machines, Class II are central server pull-tab and/or bingo style. This left Class I, which I always thought were the original mechanical slot machines. Is that right?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Am I correct in stating that the 3 classes listed here refer to classes of the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act, and are not directly related to the slot machine classes?

Yes, the classes are defined by the IGRA. The classes refer to styles of gaming and the slot machines are a subset. In other words all Class II slots are Class II gaming but not all Class II gaming is Class II slots. Class II gaming can also encompass things like raked poker.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

For what it's worth, It has been my understanding that Class III machines are true RNG machines, Class II are central server pull-tab and/or bingo style. This left Class I, which I always thought were the original mechanical slot machines. Is that right?

That's mostly correct: Class III machines are machines where the house profits off the "gambling" aspect of the slot versus taking a portion of the buy-in such as in Class II slots. It's a bit more complicated than that but that's the gist. Class I gaming refers to small, usually ceremonial, gambling between tribal members. Class I (I believe) does not regulate the type of game being played as long as it is being played between tribal members for low-stakes.

EDIT: Found the exact wording for Class I:
According to 25 USCS § 2703 [Title 25. Indians, Chapter 29. Indian Gaming Regulation] the term "class I gaming" means "social games solely for prizes of minimal value or traditional forms of Indian gaming engaged in by individuals as a part of, or in connection with, tribal ceremonies or celebrations."

Quote: weaselman

Yeah, that I understand. But how would it be different if each machine had its own RNG?

It matters a lot.
I think this example is good to demonstrate the class II:

if the house is empty in the early morning, let's say 3 am. You are the only one player.
Then you will never ever have a chance to
win a hand that is equate or more than what you spend for that hand.

Of course, you should never play in such case, or in any case in a class II house.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Class II are central server pull-tab and/or bingo style.

No, only the latter. The decision in Cabazon v. NIGC set the precedent that central-determinant facsimiles of pull-tab or scratch games are class III, not class II.

Class II games often look like slot games, but they require multiple players simultaneously to form a bingo "quorum" -- two or more players in an ad-hoc network that triggers a bingo ball draw on a network server. One of those players in the quorum achieves a game-ending prize and wins the pot. If you've seen class II paytables, they're much larger than normal slot paytables. Instead of just mapping reel combinations to awards, they have to map bingo ball patterns to awards, and there are a lot more patterns there.

The games in non-tribal New York racinos are, by definition, not controlled by the IGRA and therefore not subject to any class II / class III limitations. The games in Washington state work the same way (central-determinant finite-pool games) but those are explicitly allowed in Appendix X of the tribal-state compact. See WSGC page on Appendix X

Quote:

EDIT: Found the exact wording for Class I:
According to 25 USCS § 2703 [Title 25. Indians, Chapter 29. Indian Gaming Regulation] the term "class I gaming" means "social games solely for prizes of minimal value or traditional forms of Indian gaming engaged in by individuals as a part of, or in connection with, tribal ceremonies or celebrations."

A very interesting definition by US Code. I would therefore conclude penny poker during Schmetzhun (Corn Harvest by the River, my spelling is probably wrong) is legal, or penny gaming in general. Though I think the term wampum is intended.

Quote: MathExtremist

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Class II are central server pull-tab and/or bingo style.

No, only the latter....

OK. I admit it.

I'm confused, and will probably stop answering questions about Class II and Class I.

For the record, I never play slots*, so I don't feel at a disadvantage by my ignorance.


* Except when I take the bus to AC, and have to play thru the free slot play that comes with the bus ride. But AC is Class III, so no worries or concerns.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

First, remember that Class II are NOT doing a true deal of the cards.
Most cases where you screw things up, it can be fixed by stacking the deck before the draw.

I know. That's why I mentioned Royals and Quads - there is only one way to make either of these hands (for given suit/value), and it consumes all of the required cards.
A damaged Royal can only be repaired to a Flush, damaged Quads to a Full House.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

If you screw up to the point where a stacked deck can't fix it, animation of a magical fairy crossing the screen and waving her magic wand at the cards, and, POOF! That fixes it.

What I was wondering is what actually happens in this situation. Does the machine deal you cards that aren't supposed to be there, deal something else but pay out on the original hand, compensate you on the follow-up spins, or is it allowed to stiff you in case of such a messup.

I mean, this has to happen sometimes, there are players out there who don't realize quads are better than a full house, for instance.

Quote: P90

What I was wondering is what actually happens in this situation. Does the machine deal you cards that aren't supposed to be there, deal something else but pay out on the original hand, compensate you on the follow-up spins, or is it allowed to stiff you in case of such a messup.

What happens on some games in Washington is that there's a little bonus wheel that spins and if it matches your 5th card you get a bonus amount. So for a quads payout, if the central computer says you're going to win 125 credits and you throw away two out of the four cards, the bonus wheel will make up for it.

Quote: weaselman

How does it matter where the decisions are made?

It matters. When playing a true video poker machine, there are strategies that allow you to lower the house edge. In the racinos, all of that house edge is locked in and you are just repeatedly pressing a button.