BenJammin
BenJammin
Joined: Nov 1, 2009
  • Threads: 48
  • Posts: 133
November 26th, 2009 at 8:48:27 AM permalink
When dealt three unsuited high cards, one being an Ace, on our initial five card hand, why do we discard the Ace and keep the other two face cards, especially on Double Double Bonus Poker where 4 Aces and a 2,3, or 4 kicker hits the half a royal bonus, in this case being 2000 coins, as opposed to a Royal Flush that nets 4000 coins, but is harder to hit.

Any other possible combination of face or high cards, with the exception of the Royal Flush, doesn't come close.

Keeping two unsuited face cards might produce a four of a kind or a full house, but what else?

It seems to me that one would welcome the opportunity keeping the Ace and only the Ace might bring.

So here's the question. If a Royal Flush has a frequency of about once in 42,500 hands or so, how often would 4 Aces with a 2, 3, or 4 come?
Member In Good Standing!
teddys
teddys
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
  • Threads: 150
  • Posts: 5450
November 26th, 2009 at 9:37:35 AM permalink
In Double Double Bonus, you _do_ keep the Ace is lieu of the two lesser unsuited high cards, unless the two lesser cards are queen+jack!). This is because of, as you said, the greater payout for four aces. In most other non-wild card games, for example Jacks or Better, you keep the two lesser high cards because there are more straight and pair possibilities.

Four Aces with a kicker will come 1 in 16,238 hands in DDB.

If you don't keep the ace, it will cost you about 3 or 4 cents per every mistake on a $5/pull machine, less on a quarter machine, so I wouldn't worry yourself too much about this particular strategy distinction.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
JB
Administrator
JB
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 334
  • Posts: 2089
November 26th, 2009 at 9:47:04 AM permalink
Quote: BenJammin

When dealt three unsuited high cards, one being an Ace, on our initial five card hand, why do we discard the Ace and keep the other two face cards, especially on Double Double Bonus Poker where 4 Aces and a 2,3, or 4 kicker hits the half a royal bonus, in this case being 2000 coins, as opposed to a Royal Flush that nets 4000 coins, but is harder to hit.

Any other possible combination of face or high cards, with the exception of the Royal Flush, doesn't come close.

Keeping two unsuited face cards might produce a four of a kind or a full house, but what else?

It seems to me that one would welcome the opportunity keeping the Ace and only the Ace might bring.

So here's the question. If a Royal Flush has a frequency of about once in 42,500 hands or so, how often would 4 Aces with a 2, 3, or 4 come?


On 9/6 DDB, you generally keep the Ace by itself unless the other two high cards are JQ, or are suited. There are of course exceptions: sometimes the Ace by itself beats unsuited JQ; and sometimes suited TJ, unsuited JK, and unsuited QK beat the Ace. (The suited TJ occurs in hands with only 2 high cards, the Jack and Ace.)

In other games where the Aces aren't so valuable, you usually keep the lower two of the three high cards. Keeping two unsuited high cards could result in a pair of high cards, two pairs, three of a kind, a straight, a full house, or four of a kind.

With perfect play on 9/6 DDB, four Aces with a kicker occurs every 16,236.35 hands on average.
BenJammin
BenJammin
Joined: Nov 1, 2009
  • Threads: 48
  • Posts: 133
November 26th, 2009 at 11:04:07 AM permalink
Double Double Bonus Poker

Keeping just the ace could result in a pair of aces or faces, two pair, three of a kind, straight, flush, full house, four of a kind, straight flush or royal flush.

What's the change in EV if you keep just the ace?

I can see the long term advantage, but if you are a short term player looking for a jackpot I'd say you've got better than two and a half times more likelihood of hitting four aces with the kicker than a royal flush, especially if you maximize your advantage by keeping only the ace in these situations.

I've hit the 2000 coin bonus once and my wife has hit it twice recently using that strategy.
Member In Good Standing!
JB
Administrator
JB
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 334
  • Posts: 2089
November 26th, 2009 at 12:18:43 PM permalink
Quote: BenJammin

Keeping just the ace could result in a pair of aces or faces, two pair, three of a kind, straight, flush, full house, four of a kind, straight flush or royal flush.


Discarding 4 cards gives you 178,365 possible combinations on the draw.
Discarding 3 cards give you 16,215 combinations.

A royal flush or straight flush is possible on the draw when holding only an ace, but both of those have a probability of 1 in 178365 (0.0056%). Getting the other 3 aces and a kicker has a probability of 12 in 178365 (0.00673%), assuming that you didn't discard a 2, 3, or 4.

Quote: BenJammin

What's the change in EV if you keep just the ace?


It depends on the other cards that were dealt. If you have WinPoker or Video Poker for Winners you can enter various hands to see how the other cards affect the expected value of holding only an Ace. If you don't, you can use the hand analyzers on www.vpgenius.com.

Quote: BenJammin

I can see the long term advantage, but if you are a short term player looking for a jackpot I'd say you've got better than two and a half times more likelihood of hitting four aces with the kicker than a royal flush, especially if you maximize your advantage by keeping only the ace in these situations.

I've hit the 2000 coin bonus once and my wife has hit it twice recently using that strategy.


Playing with an incorrect strategy doesn't mean you'll always lose, and playing with a correct strategy doesn't mean you'll always win. The advantage to playing with the correct strategy is simply that over time you will lose less (or with positive games, win more). The strategy that works best for you is the one that helps you achieve your goal, be it bankroll preservation or hitting the most jackpot hands.
midwestgb
midwestgb
Joined: Dec 8, 2009
  • Threads: 12
  • Posts: 465
January 12th, 2010 at 11:02:20 AM permalink
Crazy story...

Yesterday, I played at two Casinos and hit the 2000 coin 4-Ace/Kicker at each. Both times, on a triple-play machine which only allowed Quarter-play. Guess I need to buy a Lottery ticket...

  • Jump to: