Illegal Apps?

When I first started playing video poker at the casino and got dealt hands that left me unsure about which cards to hold, I might have opened a hand analyzer app on my phone. Subsequently, I heard from multiple sources that what I might have been doing was actually illegal!

Using physical strategy cards is allowed. And presumably there would be nothing wrong with having a physical book that showed the optimal holdings for every possible hand.

But somehow seeking out that same information on your phone is a crime?

I get how using technology to try to gain an advantage on a game would be considered a crime. But in the case of video poker hands, the phone's technology isn't functioning as anything other than digital strategy cards. The phone doesn't interact in any way with the machine. It doesn't help the player predict what cards will randomly be dealt next. Nor does it give the player an actual advantage over the casino.

Is a casino really going to press charges against someone for playing 9/6 jacks or better and achieving an expected return of 99.54%? Is a casino really going to claim to be the victim of fraud because a player who had basic strategy information at his fingertips was able to lose to the casino at rate of only 0.46%?

Well, I'm clearly losing at a 25% rate unless I get a quads hit.

Didnt we have a similar discussion about this a couple of days ago?

To summarize the position of the Nevada Gaming Commission you violate NO laws using a phone app BUT casinos may have their own rules barring them -- but that's a casino rule and not a crime.

You can call the enforcement dept of the NGC 24/7 with questions at 702-486-2020

I have downloaded (but never used in a casino) a card counting app for baccarat. It shows how the house edge changes for player/banker bets based on cards removed from the shoe. In rare instances, the house edge on a player or banker bet goes away entirely or becomes a slight advantage play.

Would using this sort of app be illegal -- or just grounds for a casino to tell a player his action is no longer welcome?

I wouldn't take the risk of pulling out the app while playing a conventional table version of baccarat. And I doubt it would be of much help for machine versions of the game. But in stadium versions of baccarat with a live dealer and players spread out in front of terminals, pulling out a phone casually as if texting isn't likely to invite unwanted attention unless it looks too much like it's coinciding with cards having just been dealt.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Didnt we have a similar discussion about this a couple of days ago?

To summarize the position of the Nevada Gaming Commission you violate NO laws using a phone app BUT casinos may have their own rules barring them -- but that's a casino rule and not a crime.

You can call the enforcement dept of the NGC 24/7 with questions at 702-486-2020
link to original post

Will they put that in writing? I have been given misinformation directly from gaming agents, so I'm certainly not about to go on hearsay.

There have been multiple incidents where gambling agents have been overruled on their interpretation and initial rulings.

I don't know exactly how to interpret the law regarding this, however, most of the VP advantage players along with Bob Nersesian,(Probably The Wizard) have long thought it's a violation of the law. I do believe that Bob Dancer and others have suggested not using their apps in the casino while playing.

Assuming you use a hand analyzer, it also takes into account penalty cards, isn't that basically the same as card counting? What if you're using on a progressive VP machine where that calculator/computer now gives you the information needed to gain an advantage?

Alternatively, could you use a calculator/computer to count cards if it didn't give you an advantage? I think not.

I'd like to analyze how many of my discards are replaced with the same card only of a different suit. I'm sure I'd make a killing on it if it were a side bet.

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: AlanMendelson

Didnt we have a similar discussion about this a couple of days ago?

To summarize the position of the Nevada Gaming Commission you violate NO laws using a phone app BUT casinos may have their own rules barring them -- but that's a casino rule and not a crime.

You can call the enforcement dept of the NGC 24/7 with questions at 702-486-2020
link to original post

Will they put that in writing? I have been given misinformation directly from gaming agents, so I'm certainly not about to go on hearsay.

There have been multiple incidents where gambling agents have been overruled on their interpretation and initial rulings.

I don't know exactly how to interpret the law regarding this, however, most of the VP advantage players along with Bob Nersesian,(Probably The Wizard) have long thought it's a violation of the law. I do believe that Bob Dancer and others have suggested not using their apps in the casino while playing.

Assuming you use a hand analyzer, it also takes into account penalty cards, isn't that basically the same as card counting? What if you're using on a progressive VP machine where that calculator/computer now gives you the information needed to gain an advantage?

Alternatively, could you use a calculator/computer to count cards if it didn't give you an advantage? I think not.
link to original post

I suggest you call the enforcement dept with your question about putting it in writing. I dont know the answer.

But since living in Vegas I have called enforcement twice and within 30 minutes agents came to me at two casinos where I had problems, and they took my side in front of management.

One incident was at Suncoast when I caught them running a giveaway drawing unfairly. Not only did Gaming take my side on behalf of all the players but Suncoast was written up for what they pulled.

The other incident was at Red Rock when, in the early days of Covid, RedRock refused to enforce the rule limiting the number of players at each table. That time an agent was there in a matter of minutes and told the pit bosses to follow the rules immediately, and they did. And the dealers thanked me because they were told NOT to enforce any rules regarding the number of players, and the dealers were scared.

Once again, the NGC says using these phone apps is not criminal BUT THEY COULD STILL VIOLATE THE CASINO'S RULES and if the casino says you can't use them then you cant use them. But there's no crime.

Quote: AlanMendelson

But since living in Vegas I have called enforcement twice and within 30 minutes agents came to me at two casinos where I had problems, and they took my side in front of management.
link to original post

This is actually very cool.

Have you ever been worried that the casino would retaliate against such a move by 86-ing you or simply giving you a hard time afterward?

Quote: Mukke

Quote: AlanMendelson

But since living in Vegas I have called enforcement twice and within 30 minutes agents came to me at two casinos where I had problems, and they took my side in front of management.
link to original post

This is actually very cool.

Have you ever been worried that the casino would retaliate against such a move by 86-ing you or simply giving you a hard time afterward?
link to original post

There are plenty of other casinos and since I don't play professionally or depend on casinos for income I wouldn't care.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: AlanMendelson

Didnt we have a similar discussion about this a couple of days ago?

To summarize the position of the Nevada Gaming Commission you violate NO laws using a phone app BUT casinos may have their own rules barring them -- but that's a casino rule and not a crime.

You can call the enforcement dept of the NGC 24/7 with questions at 702-486-2020
link to original post

Will they put that in writing? I have been given misinformation directly from gaming agents, so I'm certainly not about to go on hearsay.

There have been multiple incidents where gambling agents have been overruled on their interpretation and initial rulings.

I don't know exactly how to interpret the law regarding this, however, most of the VP advantage players along with Bob Nersesian,(Probably The Wizard) have long thought it's a violation of the law. I do believe that Bob Dancer and others have suggested not using their apps in the casino while playing.

Assuming you use a hand analyzer, it also takes into account penalty cards, isn't that basically the same as card counting? What if you're using on a progressive VP machine where that calculator/computer now gives you the information needed to gain an advantage?

Alternatively, could you use a calculator/computer to count cards if it didn't give you an advantage? I think not.
link to original post

I suggest you call the enforcement dept with your question about putting it in writing. I dont know the answer.

But since living in Vegas I have called enforcement twice and within 30 minutes agents came to me at two casinos where I had problems, and they took my side in front of management.

One incident was at Suncoast when I caught them running a giveaway drawing unfairly. Not only did Gaming take my side on behalf of all the players but Suncoast was written up for what they pulled.

The other incident was at Red Rock when, in the early days of Covid, RedRock refused to enforce the rule limiting the number of players at each table. That time an agent was there in a matter of minutes and told the pit bosses to follow the rules immediately, and they did. And the dealers thanked me because they were told NOT to enforce any rules regarding the number of players, and the dealers were scared.

Once again, the NGC says using these phone apps is not criminal BUT THEY COULD STILL VIOLATE THE CASINO'S RULES and if the casino says you can't use them then you cant use them. But there's no crime.
link to original post

I would love to know the exact question and answer. Did they understand exactly what apps you were asking about? I can see a big difference between a pre-determined strategy chart on a phone and something that actively computes and calculates. Where do they draw the line?

I have had many favorable outcomes with NGC. I think for the most part they are fair. However, things can change depending on who's in charge at the time. I still wouldn't accept their word unless it was in writing. I don't care to ask because I wouldn't want to be using something like that in the casino anyways, it's not worth the casino taking note of my play. It would have to be a super unique situation. I'm wondering if ever they came out with a skill game where an app gave you a significant advantage, if that would be illegal?

Being practical, Axel, you should ask the casino first.
If the casino objects the NGC is not going to overrule the casino.

That's the bottom line.

But if the casino threatens you with prosecution you should know that as far as the NGC is concerned it's not a criminal act.

Is there really anything left to discuss?

Quote: AlanMendelson

Being practical, Axel, you should ask the casino first.
If the casino objects the NGC is not going to overrule the casino.

That's the bottom line.

But if the casino threatens you with prosecution you should know that as far as the NGC is concerned it's not a criminal act.

Is there really anything left to discuss?
link to original post

Axel won't be asking the casino any such things.

Of course, there is more to discuss, there are too many unanswered questions. I think I already asked a few in my previous posts.

Come to think of it, It doesn't really matter to me what the casino thinks since it wouldn't be that hard to mask the fact that you are using an app. What matters is the actual law.

For everyone else...

You can call the enforcement dept of the NGC 24/7 with questions at 702-486-2020.

I may know a friend who tracked 10s of thousands of plays on a specific progressive machine to capture the return from progressives and non-progressives.

That friend may or may not have created an excel spreadsheet that allows them to enter in all the different progressives on said machine on their cell phone, and the spreadsheet then shows the theoretical EV at the time, and how much any particular meter rise will change the EV.

This is kind of along the same line..

Quote: Mukke

I may know a friend who tracked 10s of thousands of plays on a specific progressive machine to capture the return from progressives and non-progressives.

That friend may or may not have created an excel spreadsheet that allows them to enter in all the different progressives on said machine on their cell phone, and the spreadsheet then shows the theoretical EV at the time, and how much any particular meter rise will change the EV.

This is kind of along the same line..
link to original post

Is your question is it legal?

Sounds legal to me. He is not doing anything to alter the RNG or how the machine operates.

And that really is the question when electronic devices are used in a casino. Is the device affecting how the machine operates?

But again I've given you the phone number to call. They answer 24/7. Even on holidays.

They will tell you what's criminal. They will also tell you that casinos have their own non criminal policies. The best case in point is card counting.

Card counting is not a crime in Nevada but casinos can bar card counters. I think everyone understands that. And the same can be extrapolated to apply to apps on phones: not criminal but can be blocked.

Quote: AxelWolf

I have had many favorable outcomes with NGC. I think for the most part they are fair. However, things can change depending on who's in charge at the time. I still wouldn't accept their word unless it was in writing. I don't care to ask because I wouldn't want to be using something like that in the casino anyways, it's not worth the casino taking note of my play. It would have to be a super unique situation. I'm wondering if ever they came out with a skill game where an app gave you a significant advantage, if that would be illegal?

I have also had many favorable interactions with Gaming agents as a player.

On the other hand, having worked with many of the Gaming agents for a number of years, I would not always trust what they say as the minutia is beyond most of their job descriptions. It would be the equivalent of asking a policeman to interpret the laws. The average policeman might be good at their jobs, but it is the lawyers that really understand the law.

Another example is when people say they asked a slot technician how the slots work. They MAY know the basics but they have no idea how the internals work.

Quote: DRich

Quote: AxelWolf

I have had many favorable outcomes with NGC. I think for the most part they are fair. However, things can change depending on who's in charge at the time. I still wouldn't accept their word unless it was in writing. I don't care to ask because I wouldn't want to be using something like that in the casino anyways, it's not worth the casino taking note of my play. It would have to be a super unique situation. I'm wondering if ever they came out with a skill game where an app gave you a significant advantage, if that would be illegal?

I have also had many favorable interactions with Gaming agents as a player.

On the other hand, having worked with many of the Gaming agents for a number of years, I would not always trust what they say as the minutia is beyond most of their job descriptions. It would be the equivalent of asking a policeman to interpret the laws. The average policeman might be good at their jobs, but it is the lawyers that really understand the law.

Another example is when people say they asked a slot technician how the slots work. They MAY know the basics but they have no idea how the internals work.
link to original post

Or when a security guard tells you what the law is.

This is exactly why I don't think a simple call to NGC is sufficient enough to get a proper answer.

I honestly don't think they are ever going to bust a normal person who is simply using an app to get a correct hold on a VP machine.

I could see a bad situation where someone had a significant +EV play where they made a big score while having used an app.

Quote: AxelWolf

I could see a bad situation where someone had a significant +EV play where they made a big score while having used an app.
link to original post

That is one reason I don't prefer to use apps when checking plays and instead use paper strategy cards and printouts. It is also a lot faster than dialing in the proper hand. Interestingly the one time I used the app to check a hold in Vegas, a working girl who was looking for clients startled me when she saw my phone and the game, making conversation by saying I was playing video poker at two places at once.

Quote: AxelWolf

This is exactly why I don't think a simple call to NGC is sufficient enough to get a proper answer.

It is not. Unless I was speaking to the Chief of Gaming Enforcement, I would take it with a grain of salt.

Quote: DRich

Quote: AxelWolf

This is exactly why I don't think a simple call to NGC is sufficient enough to get a proper answer.

It is not. Unless I was speaking to the Chief of Gaming Enforcement, I would take it with a grain of salt.
link to original post

I agree. We're all posting from a standpoint of at least a little uncertainty.

I tend to look at "vulnerability." As posted earlier, there is a Nevada State law that expressly and clearly forbids the use of electronic devices in casinos to gain advantage or inform the user about probabilities of outcomes. It does not expressly exempt the use of electronic devices on Video Poker machines. Thus, if a casino wants to go after you (i.e., has animus towards you) I imagine that they could exploit this in civil court and conceivably with a District Attorney's office or law enforcement office to bring charges against you. So, this is a vulnerability. An oral conversation with someone on the NGC is likely to have very little evidentiary weight.

Quote: DRich

Quote: AxelWolf

This is exactly why I don't think a simple call to NGC is sufficient enough to get a proper answer.

It is not. Unless I was speaking to the Chief of Gaming Enforcement, I would take it with a grain of salt.
link to original post

ALWAYS GET IT IN WRITING!!!

When I worked in the Call Center for the Nevada Department of Taxation (a different agency of the same state government as the GCB), we were trained to tell people, “I may only ‘advise’ you regarding general tax questions or to assist you with completing a return properly. For a legal response to your particular tax situation, you must describe such situation in writing and send it to the Department. The Department’s response will be in writing and will be sufficient backup in the case of an audit.” Not only were these responded to by the Director, a position appointed by the current Governor, but quite often with the assistance of the Attorney General’s office.

When I left the agency, the Director herself had a law degree, and even she needed assistance. The reason I mention this, is that any question regarding or involving the law gets complicated real quick, and just like each case that comes before a judge, must be handled on a case by case basis. The Director must review pertinent statutes (in Nevada, that includes the NRS AND the NAC); other documents such as any applicable AG Opinions, which look at common, yet specific, situations; and finally, when necessary, must consult with the Office of the AG, which may review the deliberations between the legislators during the passing of the laws in order to determine the reasoning and thus interpret the law as it was intended.

So, yes, while a phone call may make one feel better, assuming one gets the answer that one wanted, the people answering don’t have the training or specific information required to give an answer that could stand up in court. I sure hope that other members of the press do not stop asking questions the moment they get the answer they like!

Quote: camapl

ALWAYS GET IT IN WRITING!!!

That was my first question.

Quote: AxelWolf

Will they put that in writing?

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: camapl

ALWAYS GET IT IN WRITING!!!

That was my first question.

Quote: AxelWolf

Will they put that in writing?

link to original post

If it’s anything like the Department of Taxation, then, yes, any written response will receive a response. The more details provided in the request, the better chance you’ll receive a response that isn’t just cut and paste from the statutes. The alternative is to pay an attorney for their opinion and/or time to write the request, but it isn’t absolutely necessary.

ETA: And, yes, I saw that you brought it up. That’s part of the reason that I chimed in - in an attempt to back y’all up. A phone call wouldn’t be enough for the purposes of the OP or the users of any apps in a gaming environment. I strongly suggest that anyone developing software to be used by patrons in a casino determine in which jurisdictions, if any, this is or isn’t allowed before claiming it can be used anywhere.

Quote: camapl

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: camapl

ALWAYS GET IT IN WRITING!!!

That was my first question.

Quote: AxelWolf

Will they put that in writing?

link to original post

If it’s anything like the Department of Taxation, then, yes, any written response will receive a response. The more details provided in the request, the better chance you’ll receive a response that isn’t just cut and paste from the statutes. The alternative is to pay an attorney for their opinion and/or time to write the request, but it isn’t absolutely necessary.
link to original post

my advice...

If you're not at advantage player and you are playing under normal circumstances, feel free to use an app to check a few hands...No one will care.

If you are an advantage player playing with a significant advantage..... don't use am app as there could be a problem.

How exactly would you get caught doing this... if any casino worker comes nearby just switch tab to text messages, games, cat videos, hell, even porn

Quote: VladPutin

How exactly would you get caught doing this... if any casino worker comes nearby just switch tab to text messages, games, cat videos, hell, even porn
link to original post

Assuming no screen/ audio or other cloaking device, they can go to the cameras.

It's highly doubtful they will ever notice or care until they have a significant reason to do so. I.E. If you're playing a $5-$100 denomination and spike a significant had-pay.

If one were to hit a jackpot in the 100k + range, I can see a situation where the casino would want to do anything possible to void your payout.

Yeah, there is a non-zero chance that during a hand pay someone may check the tape and deny you payment of a jackpot. It is probably on the odds of a royal draw from two cards, but it isn't zero as that happens all the time somewhere. I just feel more comfortable, and it is faster, to just pull a strategy card or printout and look it up.

Sorry but I call this forum paranoia.

Has anyone here ever been challenged for using their cell phone while playing video poker?

What makes you think they'd care if you were texting your wife or checking an app about holds?

Quote: AlanMendelson

Sorry but I call this forum paranoia.

Has anyone here ever been challenged for using their cell phone while playing video poker?

What makes you think they'd care if you were texting your wife or checking an app about holds?
link to original post

Stories like this:
https://www.wired.com/2017/02/russians-engineer-brilliant-slot-machine-cheat-casinos-no-fix/

Quote: AlanMendelson

Sorry but I call this forum paranoia.

Has anyone here ever been challenged for using their cell phone while playing video poker?

What makes you think they'd care if you were texting your wife or checking an app about holds?
link to original post

Actually, I’ve been challenged, sort of, about 5-6 years ago. I was using a spreadsheet on my iPhone that I had created to tell me the value of a multi-progressive while sitting at a machine. The shift supervisor walked by and asked, “Do you have a spreadsheet open, [camapl]? I didn’t see that!”, and kept walking. I inferred that she thought I was doing something illegal or at least against policy, but I never asked due to her “turning a blind eye” antics.

At the time, I didn’t really have any “adequate” cover that I could pull up and that looked similar, so I would just jot down figures on a piece of scratch paper, and go somewhere off the gaming floor to punch them into my homemade calculator. Now I have a few spreadsheets that I would call harmless that I could pull up if questions arise, like a daily schedule or my win/loss records.

I do use the “regular” calculator to determine whether must hits are playable or to double check the number of hands needed for a particular promo. This hasn’t been a problem, yet.

It may seem like paranoia, but this and other heat discussed on WoV may seem like they aren’t an issue until they are. Once an issue at casino X, always an issue at casino X - there’s really no reversal, at least not for a long time. What one may call paranoia, I call being cautious. Each casino that I frequent is important to my bottom line. There are fewer than a dozen close enough to me that don’t require a 30 minute drive to a neighboring town, and half of them are part of one of two small groups of sister properties. I figure if I “upset” one of these casinos, then I lose the sister properties, as well.

I realize that being challenged by a casino employee doesn’t mean something is illegal. I’ve been challenged on three different occasions for writing things down with pen and paper! Twice the supervisor stifled the issue and explained to the uninformed personnel that it wasn’t a problem. The third time, I was approached at the direction of someone watching me on camera. Eventually, they decided that if I put my pen and paper away (in my vehicle) that I could stay. I had been jotting down the VP variants on linked progressives. I happened to be wearing a T-shirt from one of their competitors, and they thought that I was spying for them! When I returned from the car, I continued my search without writing, and was asked to “leave for the day”. The slot tech that first approached me even said, “I play VP, and I never look at machines the way you do.” While I wasn’t concerned with any legal issues, you just never know if misguided personnel are going to get squirrely. I’m a pretty big guy at 6’7”, 270 lbs which is usually enough of a deterrent, but when you’re outnumbered, all it takes is one numbskull to ruin a play or worse, your whole day!

Quote: Dieter

Quote: AlanMendelson

Sorry but I call this forum paranoia.

Has anyone here ever been challenged for using their cell phone while playing video poker?

What makes you think they'd care if you were texting your wife or checking an app about holds?
link to original post

Stories like this:
https://www.wired.com/2017/02/russians-engineer-brilliant-slot-machine-cheat-casinos-no-fix/
link to original post

I don't think that's the same as using a phone to look up/ calculate a strategy hold. I think that would be the same as using a phone to clock a roulette wheel while making bets with an advantage, and I assume in Nevada that's illegal.

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Dieter

Quote: AlanMendelson

Sorry but I call this forum paranoia.

Has anyone here ever been challenged for using their cell phone while playing video poker?

What makes you think they'd care if you were texting your wife or checking an app about holds?
link to original post

Stories like this:
https://www.wired.com/2017/02/russians-engineer-brilliant-slot-machine-cheat-casinos-no-fix/
link to original post

I don't think that's the same as using a phone to look up/ calculate a strategy hold. I think that would be the same as using a phone to clock a roulette wheel while making bets with an advantage, and I assume in Nevada that's illegal.
link to original post

I recognize the differences.
I recognize that an investigation of my devices would probably exonerate me.
I prefer not to have my devices investigated.