Return of Multiplay Ultimate X TDB 9/7?

I have found 3-play and 5-play Ultimate X Triple Double Bonus 9/7 in Reno. It's not listed among the paytables on WizardOfOdds.com. Does anyone have a way to calculate its return?

(Note that the multlipliers are different from the TDB 9/6 and 9/5 games. Instead of 10x for the Flush, it only gives 9x.)

3-Line: .9961
5-Line: .9960
10-Line: .9959

Quote: GaryJKoehler

3-Line: .9961
5-Line: .9960
10-Line: .9959
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Thanks a lot! How did you calculate those?

How much do you have to spend for a minimum bet? Seems like it'd be expensive.

Quote: ChallengedMilly

How much do you have to spend for a minimum bet? Seems like it'd be expensive.
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I didn't check all denominations unfortunately. But they had it at least in $2.

That's strange, usually 10 play gets the best return (slightly better multipliers on the big hands).

Quote: GaryJKoehler

3-Line: .9961
5-Line: .9960
10-Line: .9959
link to original post

yike.
return for regular 9/7 tdb is 99.58%

what happened to Ult X increasing return by at least .25%?
you might as well play HotRoll 9/7 tdb (if it exists) since there's basically no ev gain.

The location is now listed on vpFREE2:
https://www.vpfree2.com/casino/eldorado-hotel-casino/games/by-machine/32899

Quote: FiliusBruce

Quote: GaryJKoehler

3-Line: .9961
5-Line: .9960
10-Line: .9959
link to original post

Thanks a lot! How did you calculate those?
link to original post

No need to answer. Just found your paper at https://wizardofodds.com/pdf/ultimatex.pdf

Thanks again!

Quote: FiliusBruce

I have found 3-play and 5-play Ultimate X Triple Double Bonus 9/7 in Reno. It's not listed among the paytables on WizardOfOdds.com. Does anyone have a way to calculate its return?

(Note that the multlipliers are different from the TDB 9/6 and 9/5 games. Instead of 10x for the Flush, it only gives 9x.)
link to original post

DM me to hear more. I have found quite a few gems in Reno that are not listed on VPFree2.

Quote: FiliusBruce

No need to answer. Just found your paper at https://wizardofodds.com/pdf/ultimatex.pdf

Thanks again!
link to original post

There's an updated version at:

https://www.playperfectllc.com/about

A single-mode strategy that does not depend on multipliers exists that produces 0.99554. So long as the pay schedules and the multipliers are the same on each line, this EV works for each of 3-line, 5-line, and 10-line versions.

Of course the correct hold does depend on the multiplier sum sometimes and the above referenced strategy will make quite a few errors. Some examples that occur relatively frequently follow where I am listing the hold that is appropriate for low multiplier sums first. Holds that make more straights and flushes typically are more valuable with low current multipliers since that is when you might want to sacrifice the EV on the current hand to get higher multipliers on the next hand.

Hands that have both:

4-card open-ended straight 5432,6543,7654 AND a pair of 2s thru 4s.
KJ or KQ unsuited AND an ace (sometimes if there is a 9, it is even appropriate to hold all 3 high cards when the multiplier sum is low - the big multiplier on attaining straights makes AKJ or AKQ of mixed suits more attractive).
QJ98 vs. a suited QJ. Hold the QJ98 with a very low multiplier sum. QJT8 is similar and is held a bit more frequently.
Suited JT for low sums with an Ace for higher sums (This and the AKJ,AKQ combinations might be quite complicated if you always want the best hold since there are many different combinations for the other two discards).
4-card inside straight draws with no high cards vs. a high card J, Q, or K. Lots of combinations here depending on which high card is dealt and whether one of the low cards is the same suit as the high card.

As you can see above, there is a relatively low reward for paying attention to these and other exceptions, but a few may think it is worth it. Good luck.

From Gary J. Koehler's UltX Bonus Steak analysis in section 5 Vulturing it says, "playing the hand myopically for one hand is better than using perfect play for the regular Bonus Streak game". It seems that is because Vultures would stop playing once the game is no longer +EV. If true, the normal strategies of the base games could help guide our play.

Assuming this is the case, what would the minimum multipliers that would be positive for the game (would the average of 2.1x or higher be the right minimums)?
How can one figure out what would the EV be assuming one would use the normal strategy of the base game for a range of multipliers (assuming one would stop playing once the game gets below the minimum multipliers)?

Thanks in advance,

-DealtRoyal

Quote: DealtRoyal

From Gary J. Koehler's UltX Bonus Steak analysis in section 5 Vulturing it says, "playing the hand myopically for one hand is better than using perfect play for the regular Bonus Streak game". It seems that is because Vultures would stop playing once the game is no longer +EV. If true, the normal strategies of the base games could help guide our play.

Assuming this is the case, what would the minimum multipliers that would be positive for the game (would the average of 2.1x or higher be the right minimums)?
How can one figure out what would the EV be assuming one would use the normal strategy of the base game for a range of multipliers (assuming one would stop playing once the game gets below the minimum multipliers)?

Thanks in advance,

-DealtRoyal
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Because i HAVE to play 10coins, i use:
# multipliers needed = (# of hands x 2) + 2

so if 5 play, i need (5x2)+2 = 12x worth of multipliers.
a screen full of 2x won't cut it because i'm betting 10 coins and 2x just breaks even with that. i'm still at -EV.
ie: If it's a 98% game, then screen full of 2x = 98% return

Instinct tells me that extra +2 multiplier makes it over 100% return.
of course, if it's a 99% game, then i'll play at +1x.
ie: 3play and i see a single 4x multiplier.
i skip because (3x2)+1 = 7x needed

edit:
just remembered you won't get just a screen full of 2x. it's 2x/2x/4x.
i dont know the math but it looks like it's worth playing 2 rounds at -ev to get that screen full of 4x? (And hopefully you don't blank out at the 4x)

Now some new things in mind

Quote: FiliusBruce

The location is now listed on vpFREE2:
https://www.vpfree2.com/casino/eldorado-hotel-casino/games/by-machine/32899
link to original post

The Atlantis also has this paytable on many machines, including bar tops. Not listed on vpFREE2.