gunbj
• Posts: 84
Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Thanked by
August 4th, 2021 at 8:24:40 AM permalink
Hello,

Can anybody tell me or point me to an analyzer that can analyze a video poker game which is essentially Joker Poker (Jacks or Better) with the following paytable at 5c:

- Five of a kind: 5000
- Royal Flush (natural or wild): 2500
- Straight Flush: 500
- Four of a kind: 200
- Full House: 50
- Flush: 35
- Straight: 25
- Three of a kind: 15
- Two pair: 10
- High Pair (Jacks or Better): 5

NOTE: There is no pay for a Natural Royal Flush, only for a Royal Flush which I guess means both Natural and with the Joker.

Thank you
sabre
• Posts: 1172
Joined: Aug 16, 2010
Thanked by
August 4th, 2021 at 8:33:07 AM permalink
The game doesn't deal cards according to correct probabilities. If it did it did the payout would be way over 100%. So there's no use in analyzing the game as if it does.
Dieter
• Posts: 5615
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
Thanked by
August 4th, 2021 at 8:36:44 AM permalink
Quote: sabre

The game doesn't deal cards according to correct probabilities. If it did it did the payout would be way over 100%. So there's no use in analyzing the game as if it does.

500:1 on a royal would appear to offset the 1000:1 on a 5ok.
May the cards fall in your favor.
AxelWolf
• Posts: 22294
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
Thanked by
August 4th, 2021 at 8:41:29 AM permalink
Quote: gunbj

Hello,

Can anybody tell me or point me to an analyzer that can analyze a video poker game which is essentially Joker Poker (Jacks or Better) with the following paytable at 5c:

- Five of a kind: 5000
- Royal Flush (natural or wild): 2500
- Straight Flush: 500
- Four of a kind: 200
- Full House: 50
- Flush: 35
- Straight: 25
- Three of a kind: 15
- Two pair: 10
- High Pair (Jacks or Better): 5

NOTE: There is no pay for a Natural Royal Flush, only for a Royal Flush which I guess means both Natural and with the Joker.

Thank you

Unless I'm missing something, it would be hard to believe this can exist for real money, and be fair. if it did exist there would be no reason to analyze this, JUST PLAY IT, as it would come back in the neighborhood of 175% return.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
sabre
• Posts: 1172
Joined: Aug 16, 2010
Thanked by
August 4th, 2021 at 8:42:16 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

500:1 on a royal would appear to offset the 1000:1 on a 5ok.

Nothing offsets 2:1 on 2 pair.
Mission146
• Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
Thanked by
August 4th, 2021 at 8:43:50 AM permalink
Roses are red,
Violets are blue;
It's a Native casino,
The paytable is untrue.

Did I guess right?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
sabre
• Posts: 1172
Joined: Aug 16, 2010
Thanked by
August 4th, 2021 at 8:44:20 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Unless I'm missing something, it would be hard to believe this can exist for real money, and be fair. if it did exist there would be no reason to analyze this, JUST PLAY IT, as it would come back in the neighborhood of 175% return.

There's obviously no class III game with that paytable.
gunbj
• Posts: 84
Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Thanked by
August 4th, 2021 at 8:47:25 AM permalink
Thanks everyone.
That was my thought as well, probably not a fair game.
What would a strategy look like if one wanted to give it a try?
Mission146
• Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
Thanked by
August 4th, 2021 at 8:49:04 AM permalink
Quote: gunbj

Thanks everyone.
That was my thought as well, probably not a fair game.
What would a strategy look like if one wanted to give it a try?

It's hard to say because, by it's very nature, it's not that close to anything. I'd probably guess something roughly close to JoB-Optimal, except treating the Joker as the best card that it could be if the game were JoB? I'd think that would get you close.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
AxelWolf
• Posts: 22294
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
Thanked by
August 4th, 2021 at 8:51:44 AM permalink
Quote: gunbj

Thanks everyone.
That was my thought as well, probably not a fair game.
What would a strategy look like if one wanted to give it a try?

Even if you didn't have a correct strategy and just went with your gut feeling while playing at a normal speed on a .25 denomination, you would be making over \$500 an hour easy with zero variance. I would think a \$20 bill would be good enough to get started.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Dieter
• Posts: 5615
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
Thanked by
August 4th, 2021 at 8:52:19 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Roses are red,
Violets are blue;
It's a Native casino,
The paytable is untrue.

Did I guess right?

The genie will appear and deliver a sack of golden treasure, from time to time.
May the cards fall in your favor.
GaryJKoehler
• Posts: 200
Joined: Oct 22, 2015
Thanked by
August 4th, 2021 at 8:55:35 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Unless I'm missing something, it would be hard to believe this can exist for real money, and be fair. if it did exist there would be no reason to analyze this, JUST PLAY IT, as it would come back in the neighborhood of 175% return.

176.31%.
Joeman
• Posts: 2422
Joined: Feb 21, 2014
Thanked by
August 4th, 2021 at 8:56:38 AM permalink
Using the Wizard's calculator, that game would return 167% if it were kings or better Joker Poker, so add a couple of points for jacks or better. Heck, this paytable would return nearly 107% if it were just standard JoB, without the joker!

ETA: Looks like all the VP players on WoV replied to this while I was putting mine together! I guess I'm a day late and a dollar short, but... what everyone else above me said!
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
Mission146
• Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
August 4th, 2021 at 9:07:10 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

The genie will appear and deliver a sack of golden treasure, from time to time.

If you make the hold that the game doesn't want you to make and renders the intended result impossible?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
AxelWolf
• Posts: 22294
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
Thanked by
August 4th, 2021 at 9:14:06 AM permalink
Quote: GaryJKoehler

176.31%.

How did you come up with that, I was just estimating?

The strategy would be crazy and complex as hell, It would very heavily be geared towards flushes and str8 flushes. It would probably drive a seasoned VP player nuts.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Dieter
• Posts: 5615
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
Thanked by
August 4th, 2021 at 9:37:33 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

If you make the hold that the game doesn't want you to make and renders the intended result impossible?

I dunno, it's a special bonus mode that is offered on top of some of these amazing paytables
May the cards fall in your favor.
GaryJKoehler
• Posts: 200
Joined: Oct 22, 2015
Thanked by
August 4th, 2021 at 10:08:06 AM permalink
App has Joker Poker (Jacks) and a build your own pay table feature.
gunbj
• Posts: 84
Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Thanked by
August 4th, 2021 at 10:14:00 AM permalink
What about using the Wizard's strategy maker for Joker Poker (Kings or better) with this paytable and adapting it to Jacks or Better (for example holding a J or Q vs discarding everything)? Would that give a reliable result?
Dieter
• Posts: 5615
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
Thanked by
August 4th, 2021 at 10:24:16 AM permalink
Quote: gunbj

Would that give a reliable result?

Where did you find the game?
... is there a bingo card in the corner of the screen?
May the cards fall in your favor.
AxelWolf
• Posts: 22294
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
Thanked by
August 4th, 2021 at 10:28:00 AM permalink
Quote: gunbj

What about using the Wizard's strategy maker for Joker Poker (Kings or better) with this paytable and adapting it to Jacks or Better (for example holding a J or Q vs discarding everything)? Would that give a reliable result?

Close enough. But I really dont think this is a task I would encourage you to take on. Normal Joker Poker is hard enough to get down.

ODDS & STRATEGIES
GAME CALCULATORS
GAMBLING INFO
PLAY FOR FUN
GAMBLING ONLINE
SEARCH

STRATEGIES
HOME › GAME CALCULATORS › VIDEO POKER STRATEGY CALCULATOR

Video Poker Strategy Calculator

The following table shows the results when following perfect strategy (basic strategy and all of the exceptions):

Perfect Strategy Analysis
HAND PAYOFF COMBINATIONS PROBABILITY HIT FREQUENCY VARIANCE RETURN
Natural Royal Flush 500 631,912,692 0.000026 38,880.16 6.39 0.012860
Five of a Kind 800 2,270,122,452 0.000092 10,822.70 58.91 0.073919
Wild Royal Flush 500 2,738,424,828 0.000111 8,971.90 27.69 0.055730
Straight Flush 100 15,541,163,928 0.000633 1,580.89 6.13 0.063256
Four of a Kind 40 206,629,280,640 0.008410 118.90 12.45 0.336408
Full House 10 379,107,453,276 0.015430 64.81 1.11 0.154304
Flush 7 428,838,633,252 0.017455 57.29 0.52 0.122182
Straight 5 529,019,764,428 0.021532 46.44 0.26 0.107661
Three of a Kind 2 3,189,466,970,424 0.129817 7.70 0.03 0.259635
Two Pair 2 2,650,094,195,328 0.107864 9.27 0.02 0.215728
Kings or Better 1 3,075,127,457,244 0.125164 7.99 0.03 0.125164
Nothing 0 14,089,400,142,708 0.573466 1.74 1.34 0.000000
Totals 24,568,865,521,200 1.000000 2.34 114.89 1.526845
The following table shows the results when following basic strategy only (not its exceptions):

Basic Strategy Analysis
HAND PAYOFF COMBINATIONS PROBABILITY HIT FREQUENCY VARIANCE RETURN
Natural Royal Flush 500 633,571,332 0.000026 38,778.37 6.41 0.012894
Five of a Kind 800 2,269,938,492 0.000092 10,823.58 58.90 0.073913
Wild Royal Flush 500 2,748,880,548 0.000112 8,937.77 27.80 0.055942
Straight Flush 100 15,530,037,636 0.000632 1,582.02 6.13 0.063210
Four of a Kind 40 206,569,576,800 0.008408 118.94 12.45 0.336311
Full House 10 378,984,104,316 0.015425 64.83 1.11 0.154254
Flush 7 430,900,370,244 0.017538 57.02 0.53 0.122769
Straight 5 527,967,315,720 0.021489 46.53 0.26 0.107446
Three of a Kind 2 3,187,659,116,484 0.129744 7.71 0.03 0.259488
Two Pair 2 2,649,350,297,808 0.107834 9.27 0.02 0.215667
Kings or Better 1 3,066,794,779,008 0.124824 8.01 0.03 0.124824
Nothing 0 14,099,457,532,812 0.573875 1.74 1.34 0.000000
Totals 24,568,865,521,200 1.000000 2.35 115.01 1.526719
The following tables show the basic strategy:

Basic Strategy — No Jokers Dealt
TYPE OF PLAY PLAY DETAILS
Pat Hand Full House; Straight Flush; Natural Royal Flush
4 of a Kind
(more)2222; 3333; 4444; 5555; 6666; 7777; 8888; 9999; TTTT; JJJJ; QQQQ; KKKK...
4 to a Natural Royal Flush TJQA; TJQK; TJKA; TQKA; JQKA
4 to a Straight Flush 2345; 3456; 4567; 5678; 6789; 789T; 89TJ; 9TJQ
Pat Hand Flush
3 of a Kind 222; 333; 444; 555; 666; 777; 888; 999; TTT; JJJ; QQQ; KKK; AAA
4 to a Straight Flush
(more)A234; A235; A245; A345; 2346; 2356; 2456; 3457; 3467; 3567; 4568; 4578...
Pat Hand Straight
2 Pair
(more)2233; 2244; 2255; 2266; 2277; 2288; 2299; 22TT; 22JJ; 22QQ; 22KK; 22AA...
3 to a Natural Royal Flush TJA; TJQ; TJK; TQA; TQK; TKA; JQA; JQK; JKA; QKA
1 Pair KK; AA
4 to a Flush
(more)2347; 2348; 2349; 234T; 234J; 234Q; 234K; 2357; 2358; 2359; 235T; 235J...
3 to a Straight Flush 345; 456; 567; 678; 789; 89T; 9TJ
1 Pair 22; 33; 44; 55; 66; 77; 88; 99; TT; JJ; QQ
4 to a Straight TJQK
3 to a Straight Flush
(more)A23; A24; A25; 234; 235; 236; 245; 346; 356; 457; 467; 568; 578; 679...
4 to a Straight 2345; 3456; 4567; 5678; 6789; 789T; 89TJ; 9TJQ
3 to a Straight Flush
(more)A34; A35; A45; 246; 256; 347; 357; 367; 458; 468; 478; 569; 579; 589...
2 to a Natural Royal Flush KA
4 to a Straight TJKA; TQKA; JQKA
2 to a Natural Royal Flush TA; TK; JA; JK; QA; QK
4 to a Straight A234; A235; A245; A345; 9TJK; 9TQK; 9JQK; TJQA
3 to a Flush
(more)28K; 29A; 29K; 38K; 39A; 39K; 48K; 49A; 49K; 58K; 59A; 59K; 68K; 69A...
2 to a Natural Royal Flush TJ
3 to a Flush
(more)23K; 24K; 25K; 26A; 26K; 27A; 27K; 28A; 34K; 35K; 36A; 36K; 37A; 37K...
Single Card an Ace
Single Card a King
4 to a Straight
(more)2346; 2356; 2456; 3457; 3467; 3567; 4568; 4578; 4678; 5679; 5689; 5789...
2 to a Natural Royal Flush TQ; JQ
4 to a Straight 678T; 689T; 789J
2 to a Straight Flush 56; 78
2 to a Straight Flush 45; 67; 89; 9T
3 to a Flush
(more)249; 259; 25T; 269; 26T; 26J; 279; 27T; 27J; 27Q; 28T; 29J; 349; 359...
2 to a Straight Flush 68; 8T; 9J
3 to a Flush
(more)237; 238; 247; 248; 257; 258; 268; 26Q; 348; 34T; 34J; 34Q; 358; 35J...
2 to a Straight Flush 34; 35; 46; 57
3 to a Flush 239; 28J; 28Q; 29Q; 39Q; 69Q; 79Q
2 to a Straight Flush 79
3 to a Flush 23T; 23J; 23Q; 24T; 24J; 24Q; 25J; 25Q; 36Q
Basic Strategy — One Joker Dealt
TYPE OF PLAY PLAY DETAILS
Pat Hand Full House; Straight Flush; Wild Royal Flush; Five of a Kind
4 of a Kind
(more)W222; W333; W444; W555; W666; W777; W888; W999; WTTT; WJJJ; WQQQ; WKKK...
4 to a Wild Royal Flush WTJA; WTJQ; WTJK; WTQA; WTQK; WTKA; WJQA; WJQK; WJKA; WQKA
4 to a Straight Flush
(more)W234; W235; W245; W345; W346; W356; W456; W457; W467; W567; W568; W578...
Pat Hand Flush
4 to a Straight Flush
(more)WA23; WA24; WA25; WA34; WA35; WA45; W236; W246; W256; W347; W357; W367...
3 of a Kind W22; W33; W44; W55; W66; W77; W88; W99; WTT; WJJ; WQQ; WKK; WAA
Pat Hand Straight
3 to a Wild Royal Flush WTA; WTJ; WTQ; WTK; WJA; WJQ; WJK; WQA; WQK; WKA
4 to a Flush
(more)W23K; W24K; W25K; W26A; W26K; W27A; W27K; W28A; W28K; W29A; W29K; W34K...
3 to a Straight Flush W67; W89
3 to a Straight Flush W45; W78
3 to a Straight Flush W46; W56; W68; W79; W8T; W9T
3 to a Straight Flush W34; W35; W57; W9J
3 to a Straight Flush WA2; WA3; WA4; WA5; W9K
4 to a Straight W456; W567; W678; W789; W89T; WTJK; WTQK; WJQK
1 Pair WA
1 Pair WK
3 to a Straight Flush W36; W47; W58; W69; W7T; W8J
3 to a Straight Flush W23; W24; W25; W9Q
4 to a Straight W345; W9TJ; WTJQ
4 to a Flush W26T
1 Pair WT
4 to a Flush W26J; W26Q; W27J; W27Q; W28Q; W37J; W37Q; W38Q; W48Q
1 Pair WJ
1 Pair W8
1 Pair W7
1 Pair W9
1 Pair W6
1 Pair W5
1 Pair WQ
The following table shows the exceptions to the basic strategy:

Basic Strategy Exceptions
RIGHT PLAY WRONG PLAY PATTERN(S)
Single Card: a King Single Card: an Ace
(more)2♣3♣6♦K♥A♦
Single Card: an Ace 2 to a Natural Royal Flush: TJ
(more)2♣3♦10♣J♣A♥
Single Card: a King 2 to a Natural Royal Flush: TJ
(more)2♣3♦10♣J♣K♦
Garbage: Discard everything 2 to a Straight Flush: 34
(more)2♣3♦4♦7♣8♥
1 Pair: W7 1 Pair: WJ
(more)2♣3♦7♥J♣W
Garbage: Discard everything 2 to a Straight Flush: 35
(more)2♣3♦5♦7♣8♥
1 Pair: W9 1 Pair: W7
(more)2♣3♦7♣9♦W
3 to a Flush: 268 2 to a Straight Flush: 68
(more)2♣3♦6♣7♦8♣
3 to a Flush: 368 2 to a Straight Flush: 68
(more)2♣3♦6♦7♣8♦
2 to a Natural Royal Flush: JQ 4 to a Straight: 89JQ
(more)2♣8♣9♣J♦Q♦
1 Pair: W6 1 Pair: WJ
(more)2♣6♦9♥J♣W
1 Pair: W9 1 Pair: W8
(more)2♣3♦8♣9♥W
1 Pair: W8 1 Pair: WJ
(more)2♣3♦8♣J♦W
2 to a Natural Royal Flush: TQ 4 to a Straight: 89TQ
(more)2♣8♣9♣10♦Q♦
1 Pair: W7 1 Pair: W8
(more)2♣3♦7♥8♣W
1 Pair: WK 1 Pair: WA
(more)2♣3♣K♦A♥W
1 Pair: W5 1 Pair: WJ
(more)5♣7♦8♥J♦W
1 Pair: W6 1 Pair: W8
(more)2♣4♦6♥8♦W
1 Pair: W6 1 Pair: W9
(more)2♣5♦6♥9♦W
Garbage: Discard everything 2 to a Straight Flush: 46
(more)2♣4♦6♦7♣9♥
1 Pair: W9 1 Pair: WJ
(more)2♣3♦9♥J♣W
1 Pair: W5 1 Pair: W8
(more)2♣5♦8♣Q♥W
Garbage: Discard everything 2 to a Straight Flush: 9J
(more)2♣3♣9♦10♥J♦
4 to a Straight: TJQA 2 to a Natural Royal Flush: TA
(more)2♣10♣J♦Q♦A♣
4 to a Straight: TJQA 2 to a Natural Royal Flush: JA
(more)2♣10♦J♣Q♦A♣
4 to a Straight: TJQA 2 to a Natural Royal Flush: QA
(more)2♣10♦J♦Q♣A♣
1 Pair: W6 1 Pair: W7
(more)2♣3♦6♥7♣W
Single Card: an Ace 3 to a Flush: 67K
(more)2♣6♦7♦K♦A♥
Single Card: an Ace 3 to a Flush: 68K
(more)2♣6♦8♦K♦A♥
Single Card: an Ace 3 to a Flush: 78K
(more)2♣7♦8♦K♦A♥
Single Card: an Ace 3 to a Flush: 69K
(more)2♣6♦9♦K♦A♥
Single Card: an Ace 3 to a Flush: 79K
(more)2♣7♦9♦K♦A♥
Single Card: an Ace 3 to a Flush: 89K
(more)2♣8♦9♦K♦A♥
Garbage: Discard everything 2 to a Straight Flush: 57
(more)2♣3♣5♦7♦8♥
Garbage: Discard everything 2 to a Straight Flush: 68
(more)2♣3♣6♦7♣8♦
3 to a Straight Flush: W8J 1 Pair: WK
(more)2♣8♦J♦K♣W
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 23Q
(more)2♣3♣4♦7♦Q♣
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 34Q
(more)2♣3♦4♦7♣Q♦
3 to a Straight Flush: W7T 1 Pair: WK
(more)2♣7♦10♦K♣W
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 24Q
(more)2♣3♦4♣7♦Q♣
Single Card: a King 3 to a Flush: 26A
(more)2♣3♦6♣K♥A♣
Single Card: a King 3 to a Flush: 36A
(more)2♣3♦6♦K♥A♦
Single Card: a King 3 to a Flush: 46A
(more)2♣4♦6♦K♥A♦
Single Card: a King 3 to a Flush: 56A
(more)2♣5♦6♦K♥A♦
Single Card: a King 3 to a Flush: 27A
(more)2♣3♦7♣K♥A♣
Single Card: a King 3 to a Flush: 37A
(more)2♣3♦7♦K♥A♦
Single Card: a King 3 to a Flush: 47A
(more)2♣4♦7♦K♥A♦
Single Card: a King 3 to a Flush: 57A
(more)2♣5♦7♦K♥A♦
Single Card: a King 3 to a Flush: 67A
(more)2♣6♦7♦K♥A♦
Single Card: a King 3 to a Flush: 28A
(more)2♣3♦8♣K♥A♣
Single Card: a King 3 to a Flush: 38A
(more)2♣3♦8♦K♥A♦
Single Card: a King 3 to a Flush: 48A
(more)2♣4♦8♦K♥A♦
Single Card: a King 3 to a Flush: 58A
(more)2♣5♦8♦K♥A♦
Single Card: a King 3 to a Flush: 68A
(more)2♣6♦8♦K♥A♦
Single Card: a King 3 to a Flush: 78A
(more)2♣7♦8♦K♥A♦
4 to a Straight: A234 2 to a Natural Royal Flush: TA
(more)2♣3♣4♦10♦A♦
4 to a Straight: A235 2 to a Natural Royal Flush: TA
(more)2♣3♣5♦10♦A♦
4 to a Straight: A245 2 to a Natural Royal Flush: TA
(more)2♣4♣5♦10♦A♦
4 to a Straight: A345 2 to a Natural Royal Flush: TA
(more)3♣4♣5♦10♦A♦
4 to a Straight: A234 2 to a Natural Royal Flush: JA
(more)2♣3♣4♦J♦A♦
4 to a Straight: A235 2 to a Natural Royal Flush: JA
(more)2♣3♣5♦J♦A♦
4 to a Straight: A245 2 to a Natural Royal Flush: JA
(more)2♣4♣5♦J♦A♦
4 to a Straight: A345 2 to a Natural Royal Flush: JA
(more)3♣4♣5♦J♦A♦
4 to a Straight: A234 2 to a Natural Royal Flush: QA
(more)2♣3♣4♦Q♦A♦
4 to a Straight: A235 2 to a Natural Royal Flush: QA
(more)2♣3♣5♦Q♦A♦
4 to a Straight: A245 2 to a Natural Royal Flush: QA
(more)2♣4♣5♦Q♦A♦
4 to a Straight: A345 2 to a Natural Royal Flush: QA
(more)3♣4♣5♦Q♦A♦
2 to a Straight Flush: 9T 2 to a Straight Flush: 56
(more)2♣5♦6♦9♥10♥
2 to a Straight Flush: 34 2 to a Straight Flush: 8T
(more)3♣4♣7♦8♥10♥
2 to a Straight Flush: 35 2 to a Straight Flush: 8T
(more)3♣5♣7♦8♥10♥
2 to a Natural Royal Flush: TQ 4 to a Straight: 679T
(more)6♣7♣9♦10♥Q♥
1 Pair: W5 1 Pair: W9
(more)2♣5♦9♣Q♥W
3 to a Straight Flush: W58 1 Pair: WK
(more)2♣5♦8♦K♣W
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 237
(more)2♣3♣4♦7♣8♦
3 to a Straight Flush: W36 1 Pair: WK
(more)3♣6♣8♦K♦W
3 to a Straight Flush: W47 1 Pair: WK
(more)2♣4♦7♦K♣W
3 to a Straight Flush: W69 1 Pair: WK
(more)2♣6♦9♦K♣W
2 to a Straight Flush: 79 2 to a Straight Flush: 34
(more)2♣3♦4♦7♥9♥
Garbage: Discard everything 2 to a Straight Flush: 79
(more)2♣3♣7♦8♥9♦
2 to a Straight Flush: 45 2 to a Straight Flush: 89
(more)4♣5♣8♦9♦10♥
2 to a Straight Flush: 45 2 to a Straight Flush: 9T
(more)4♣5♣8♦9♥10♥
2 to a Straight Flush: 34 2 to a Straight Flush: 9J
(more)3♣4♣8♦9♥J♥
2 to a Straight Flush: 35 2 to a Straight Flush: 9J
(more)3♣5♣8♦9♥J♥
2 to a Straight Flush: 46 2 to a Straight Flush: 9J
(more)4♣6♣8♦9♥J♥
4 to a Straight: 678T 2 to a Natural Royal Flush: TQ
(more)6♣7♦8♣10♦Q♦
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 247
(more)2♣3♦4♣7♣8♦
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 348
(more)2♣3♦4♦7♣8♦
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 23J
(more)2♣3♣4♦7♦J♣
Single Card: an Ace 3 to a Flush: 26K
(more)2♣6♣7♦K♣A♥
Single Card: an Ace 3 to a Flush: 36K
(more)3♣6♣7♦K♣A♥
Single Card: an Ace 3 to a Flush: 46K
(more)4♣6♣7♦K♣A♥
Single Card: an Ace 3 to a Flush: 56K
(more)5♣6♣7♦K♣A♥
Single Card: an Ace 3 to a Flush: 27K
(more)2♣6♦7♣K♣A♥
Single Card: an Ace 3 to a Flush: 37K
(more)3♣6♦7♣K♣A♥
Single Card: an Ace 3 to a Flush: 47K
(more)4♣6♦7♣K♣A♥
Single Card: an Ace 3 to a Flush: 57K
(more)5♣6♦7♣K♣A♥
Single Card: an Ace 3 to a Flush: 28K
(more)2♣6♦8♣K♣A♥
Single Card: an Ace 3 to a Flush: 38K
(more)3♣6♦8♣K♣A♥
Single Card: an Ace 3 to a Flush: 48K
(more)4♣6♦8♣K♣A♥
Single Card: an Ace 3 to a Flush: 58K
(more)5♣6♦8♣K♣A♥
Single Card: an Ace 3 to a Flush: 29K
(more)2♣6♦9♣K♣A♥
Single Card: an Ace 3 to a Flush: 39K
(more)3♣6♦9♣K♣A♥
Single Card: an Ace 3 to a Flush: 49K
(more)4♣6♦9♣K♣A♥
Single Card: an Ace 3 to a Flush: 59K
(more)5♣6♦9♣K♣A♥
1 Pair: WQ 1 Pair: W6
(more)2♣3♦6♣Q♥W
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 39Q
(more)2♣3♦4♣9♦Q♦
2 to a Straight Flush: 79 2 to a Straight Flush: 35
(more)2♣3♦5♦7♥9♥
2 to a Straight Flush: 46 2 to a Straight Flush: 8T
(more)4♣6♣8♦10♦J♥
2 to a Straight Flush: 57 2 to a Straight Flush: 9J
(more)2♣5♦7♦9♥J♥
2 to a Straight Flush: 68 2 to a Straight Flush: 9J
(more)2♣6♦8♦9♥J♥
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 248
(more)2♣3♦4♣7♦8♣
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 239
(more)2♣3♣4♦7♦9♣
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 249
(more)2♣3♦4♣7♦9♣
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 349
(more)2♣3♦4♦7♣9♦
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 24J
(more)2♣3♦4♣7♦J♣
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 34J
(more)2♣3♦4♦7♣J♦
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 37Q
(more)2♣3♦4♣7♦Q♦
1 Pair: W5 1 Pair: W6
(more)2♣5♦6♥Q♥W
1 Pair: W5 1 Pair: W7
(more)5♣7♦9♥Q♦W
1 Pair: WQ 1 Pair: W7
(more)3♣4♦7♣Q♥W
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 47Q
(more)2♣3♣4♦7♦Q♦
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 48Q
(more)2♣3♣4♦8♦Q♦
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 29Q
(more)2♣3♦4♥9♣Q♣
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 49Q
(more)2♣3♣4♦9♦Q♦
3 to a Straight Flush: W36 3 to a Straight Flush: W69
(more)3♣6♣7♦9♣W
3 to a Straight Flush: W47 3 to a Straight Flush: W7T
(more)4♣7♣8♦10♣W
3 to a Straight Flush: W58 3 to a Straight Flush: W8J
(more)5♣8♣9♦J♣W
1 Pair: WT 4 to a Flush: W26T
(more)2♣3♦6♣10♣W
2 to a Straight Flush: 79 2 to a Straight Flush: 46 2♣4♦6♦7♥9♥
2 to a Straight Flush: 34 2 to a Straight Flush: 68 3♣4♣6♦8♦9♥
2 to a Straight Flush: 35 2 to a Straight Flush: 68 3♣5♣6♦8♦10♥
2 to a Straight Flush: 57 2 to a Straight Flush: 8T 5♣7♣8♦10♦Q♥
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 238
(more)2♣3♣4♦7♦8♣
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 39J
(more)2♣3♦4♣9♦J♦
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 25Q
(more)2♣3♦5♣7♦Q♣
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 35Q
(more)2♣3♦5♦7♣Q♦
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 27Q
(more)2♣3♦4♦7♣Q♣
3 to a Straight Flush: W25 3 to a Straight Flush: W58
(more)2♣5♣7♦8♣W
3 to a Straight Flush: W9Q 3 to a Straight Flush: W69
(more)5♣6♦9♦Q♦W
3 to a Flush: 239 2 to a Straight Flush: 8T 2♣3♣8♦9♣10♦
3 to a Flush: 23T 2 to a Straight Flush: 9J 2♣3♣9♦10♣J♦
3 to a Flush: 24T 2 to a Straight Flush: 9J 2♣4♣9♦10♣J♦
3 to a Flush: 34T 2 to a Straight Flush: 9J 3♣4♣9♦10♣J♦
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 257 2♣3♦5♣7♣Q♦
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 258 2♣3♦5♣8♣Q♦
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 358 2♣3♦5♦8♦Q♣
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 359 2♣3♦5♦9♦Q♣
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 279 2♣3♦4♦7♣9♣
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 379 2♣3♦4♣7♦9♦
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 479 2♣3♣4♦7♦9♦
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 23T 2♣3♣4♦10♣Q♦
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 24T 2♣3♦4♣10♣Q♦
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 34T 2♣3♦4♦10♦Q♣
2 to a Straight Flush: 79 3 to a Flush: 34T 3♣4♣7♦9♦10♣
2 to a Straight Flush: 34 3 to a Flush: 28T 2♣3♦4♦8♣10♣
2 to a Straight Flush: 35 3 to a Flush: 28T 2♣3♦5♦8♣10♣
2 to a Straight Flush: 46 3 to a Flush: 28T 2♣4♦6♦8♣10♣
2 to a Straight Flush: 57 3 to a Flush: 28T 2♣5♦7♦8♣10♣
2 to a Straight Flush: 79 3 to a Flush: 34J 3♣4♣7♦9♦J♣
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 25J 2♣3♦5♣J♣Q♦
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 35J 2♣3♦5♦J♦Q♣
2 to a Straight Flush: 79 3 to a Flush: 35J 3♣5♣7♦9♦J♣
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 27J 2♣3♦4♦7♣J♣
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 37J 2♣3♦4♣7♦J♦
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 47J 2♣3♣4♦7♦J♦
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 38J 2♣3♦4♣8♦J♦
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 48J 2♣3♣4♦8♦J♦
2 to a Straight Flush: 34 3 to a Flush: 68J 3♣4♣6♦8♦J♦
2 to a Straight Flush: 35 3 to a Flush: 68J 3♣5♣6♦8♦J♦
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 29J 2♣3♦9♣J♣Q♦
2 to a Straight Flush: 34 3 to a Flush: 29J 2♣3♦4♦9♣J♣
2 to a Straight Flush: 35 3 to a Flush: 29J 2♣3♦5♦9♣J♣
2 to a Straight Flush: 46 3 to a Flush: 29J 2♣4♦6♦9♣J♣
2 to a Straight Flush: 57 3 to a Flush: 29J 2♣5♦7♦9♣J♣
2 to a Straight Flush: 68 3 to a Flush: 29J 2♣6♦8♦9♣J♣
2 to a Straight Flush: 46 3 to a Flush: 39J 3♣4♦6♦9♣J♣
2 to a Straight Flush: 57 3 to a Flush: 39J 3♣5♦7♦9♣J♣
2 to a Straight Flush: 68 3 to a Flush: 39J 3♣6♦8♦9♣J♣
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 49J 2♣3♣4♦9♦J♦
2 to a Straight Flush: 34 3 to a Flush: 69J 3♣4♣6♦9♦J♦
2 to a Straight Flush: 35 3 to a Flush: 69J 3♣5♣6♦9♦J♦
2 to a Straight Flush: 79 3 to a Flush: 34Q 3♣4♣7♦9♦Q♣
2 to a Straight Flush: 79 3 to a Flush: 35Q 3♣5♣7♦9♦Q♣
2 to a Straight Flush: 79 3 to a Flush: 26Q 2♣6♣7♦9♦Q♣
2 to a Straight Flush: 79 3 to a Flush: 46Q 4♣6♣7♦9♦Q♣
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 57Q 2♣3♣5♦7♦Q♦
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 38Q 2♣3♦4♣8♦Q♦
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 58Q 2♣3♣5♦8♦Q♦
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 68Q 2♣3♣6♦8♦Q♦
2 to a Straight Flush: 34 3 to a Flush: 68Q 3♣4♣6♦8♦Q♦
2 to a Straight Flush: 35 3 to a Flush: 68Q 3♣5♣6♦8♦Q♦
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 59Q 2♣3♣5♦9♦Q♦
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 69Q 2♣3♣6♦9♦Q♦
Garbage: Discard everything 3 to a Flush: 79Q 2♣3♣7♦9♦Q♦
3 to a Straight Flush: W8Q 1 Pair: W8 3♣7♣8♦Q♦W
3 to a Straight Flush: W24 3 to a Straight Flush: W47 2♣4♣7♣8♦W
3 to a Straight Flush: W56 3 to a Straight Flush: W8T 5♣6♣8♦10♦W
3 to a Straight Flush: W56 3 to a Straight Flush: W9T 5♣6♣9♦10♦W
3 to a Straight Flush: W57 3 to a Straight Flush: W9J 5♣7♣9♦J♦W
4 to a Straight Flush: W79T 4 to a Straight Flush: W9TQ 7♣9♣10♣Q♣W
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
gunbj
• Posts: 84
Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Thanked by
August 4th, 2021 at 10:40:40 AM permalink
No bingo card, nothing that would make it look like a Class II, even though it might as well be one.
gunbj
• Posts: 84
Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Thanked by
August 4th, 2021 at 10:49:52 AM permalink
Yeah it looks pretty crazy. Thx.
Just for precision's sake 5oak pays 1000 (not 800) and 3oak pays 3 (not 2), I think that changes the resulting strategy as I'm getting some differences on my end.
What about that 149.35 variance (whoa!)?
GaryJKoehler
• Posts: 200
Joined: Oct 22, 2015
Thanked by
August 4th, 2021 at 11:31:50 AM permalink
Quote: gunbj

Yeah it looks pretty crazy. Thx.
Just for precision's sake 5oak pays 1000 (not 800) and 3oak pays 3 (not 2), I think that changes the resulting strategy as I'm getting some differences on my end.
What about that 149.35 variance (whoa!)?

The actual game's variance is 150.37.
AxelWolf
• Posts: 22294
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
Thanked by
August 4th, 2021 at 11:35:16 AM permalink
Quote: gunbj

Yeah it looks pretty crazy. Thx.
Just for precision's sake 5oak pays 1000 (not 800) and 3oak pays 3 (not 2), I think that changes the resulting strategy as I'm getting some differences on my end.
What about that 149.35 variance (whoa!)?

Oh, did I put it in wrong? Sorry, really didn't pay attention to the details on something that I'm fairly certain can't be legitimate.

If this were real, I don't think there would be any variance, at least not any worth mentioning.
If it were on the square and was played with any reasonable strategy, I'm fairly certain you would realize a profit within a very short period of time and never look back.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
camapl
• Posts: 430
Joined: Jun 22, 2010
Thanked by
August 4th, 2021 at 6:16:39 PM permalink
Quote: gunbj

No bingo card, nothing that would make it look like a Class II, even though it might as well be one.

Is it possible that this is only a temporary version of the pay table? Something similar to Shockwave Poker that has a premium pay table for X number of hands after some qualifying event? It made me think of Joker Vault, but the pays don’t match the bonus mode…

FYI, one way to test for Class II machines is to discard a pat hand. If you get the same valued hand on the redraw, then you likely have a Class II. In this case, strategy will get you nowhere… (Please correct me if I’m wrong.)
Expectation is the root of all heartache.
DRich
• Posts: 11896
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
Thanked by
August 4th, 2021 at 6:23:48 PM permalink
It sounds like a lottery game to me. maybe New York.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
gordonm888
• Posts: 5127
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
Thanked by
August 4th, 2021 at 7:13:48 PM permalink
Quote: GaryJKoehler

The actual game's variance is 150.37.

Gary, can you share, at a top level, how you did the calculations? Do you have your own custom program or custom spreadsheets for developing VP strategy and performing EV calculations?
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
gunbj
• Posts: 84
Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Thanked by
August 4th, 2021 at 11:27:51 PM permalink
Quote: camapl

FYI, one way to test for Class II machines is to discard a pat hand. If you get the same valued hand on the redraw, then you likely have a Class II. In this case, strategy will get you nowhere… (Please correct me if I’m wrong.)

It doesn't behave that way. If you throw away a three of a kind you get nothing on the draw (or whatever happens to come up, but not another three of a kind).
After more than 900 spins my return is around 88% so it is probably rigged, I just don't understand how.
AxelWolf
• Posts: 22294
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
Thanked by
August 5th, 2021 at 2:33:17 AM permalink
Quote: gunbj

It doesn't behave that way. If you throw away a three of a kind you get nothing on the draw (or whatever happens to come up, but not another three of a kind).
After more than 900 spins my return is around 88% so it is probably rigged, I just don't understand how.

Assuming you were playing halfway reasonable then that would be enough for me. Your advantage on something like this would be so significant it seems very unlikely you would be getting back a 88% return after 900 hands.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
ksdjdj
• Posts: 1707
Joined: Oct 20, 2013
Thanked by
August 5th, 2021 at 3:34:31 AM permalink
Doesn't mean it is the correct thing to do. But I would play another 500 or 600 hands, and then stop ( if I was not at least square).

Edit:
Hopefully you tested it on the lowest denom. setting?
GaryJKoehler
• Posts: 200
Joined: Oct 22, 2015
Thanked by
August 5th, 2021 at 3:52:42 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Gary, can you share, at a top level, how you did the calculations? Do you have your own custom program or custom spreadsheets for developing VP strategy and performing EV calculations?

Since you asked, the app Play Perfect Pro+ includes Joker Poker (Jacks) and includes actual observed pay tables plus a build-your-own pay table. I just used the build-your-own feature.
gunbj
• Posts: 84
Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Thanked by
August 5th, 2021 at 5:10:39 AM permalink
Quote: ksdjdj

Doesn't mean it is the correct thing to do. But I would play another 500 or 600 hands, and then stop ( if I was not at least square).

Edit:
Hopefully you tested it on the lowest denom. setting?

I found an online version and gave it a go. After almost 2000 spins RTP is around 95%.

What I can't figure out is HOW the machine is rigged. If you discard value hands you get nothing, so it's not predetermined. If you try holding 4 cards on every draw you get nothing and lose a lot really fast, so obviously strategy does make a difference. However I'm not getting anywhere near the amount of 3OAKs, straights and 2 pair as if it were a fair game so obviously it's rigged somehow. It has to be one of the strangest things I've ever played.

If anyone wants to give it a go: https://slotcatalog.com/en/slots/Joker-Card-Poker-Amatic-Industries#play-demo
Mission146
• Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
Thanked by
August 5th, 2021 at 5:16:46 AM permalink
Probably just second dealing on the draw, or perhaps randomizing whether to flat out remove helpful cards from the deck.

How do you get it to let you play more hands? It only let me play 20, or something, then said I couldn't play anymore. I was going to see if the dealt winning hand frequencies were lower than they should be.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
gunbj
• Posts: 84
Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Thanked by
August 5th, 2021 at 5:26:14 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

How do you get it to let you play more hands? It only let me play 20, or something, then said I couldn't play anymore. I was going to see if the dealt winning hand frequencies were lower than they should be.

I just refresh the page and start over. That shouldn't make a difference, right?
Mission146
• Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
Thanked by
August 5th, 2021 at 5:28:41 AM permalink
I'm going to isolate Pairs, Full Houses and Trips dealt and predict that they don't improve at the rate that they should. It appears that I can simply reclick on your link in order to play again, so I'll play a total of 1,000 hands in an effort to figure this out.

We will compare the frequency of these hands improving to expected, and with that information, we can get some idea of how poorly I am running.

Anyway, I have to do something right now, so I'll do it when I get back. Probably about 2.5-3.5 hours I will post some results.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
• Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
Thanked by
August 5th, 2021 at 7:08:36 AM permalink
Partial(?) Results

Okay, so I decided to narrow in more on a specific area because this is a stupid experiment on a pointless game. We know it cheats, so what difference does it make? Granted, we could figure out how---and there's maybe even a way to exploit that, if so---but then people are just going to use the exploit without even so much as a, "Thank you," so they can figure it out for themselves.

For my convenience, I decided to focus in on holding a single pair exclusively for 100 hands, here are the guidelines:

1.) In order not to taint the experiment, I'd only hold the pair if it was the recommended auto-hold. IOW, no dropping dealt 2P just to get more results in.

2.) In other hands, I just played whatever the auto-hold was and disregarded it.

3.) We're suspecting second dealing or the game just straight tossing cards out of the deck. If the latter and the game is tossing matching cards out of the deck, then 2P actually becomes MORE likely than it would normally be.

If there are 53 cards in the deck and a person holds a pair, there are 48 unknown cards in the deck remaining of which three are the same rank. There are three card positions to fill. Therefore, the probability of not matching any same rank cards is:

nCr(3,0)*nCr(45,3)/nCr(48,3) = 0.8204209065679926

In other words, we expect NOT to draw any same rank cards 82% of the time. We expect to draw AT LEAST one same rank card (Joker always counts as same rank) 18% of the time.

Drawing to Pairs 100 times my results were:

Full House: 3

2P: 10

3OaK: 6

In other words, I received a same rank card half as often as I should in a limited sample size.

The probability of receiving nine, or fewer, hands where you get additional cards of the rank in a fair game is just under 1%. Of course, the sample would NORMALLY be statistically meaningless, except we predicted ahead of time that the game would cheat, which gives these findings a small amount of value. We also know that nobody on this game is performing anywhere near what EV of this paytable and a fair game would be.

I will do 100 more hands and then someone else can take over if they care.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
• Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
Thanked by
August 5th, 2021 at 7:58:15 AM permalink
More Results

Okay, one mistake that I made on the first go around is that I might have included a couple of 3OaK that I shouldn't have. For example, if you hold Ace-Joker, then you could catch two cards that make a 3OaK and are not the Ace. For this set of 100 hands, I decided not to include any Card+Joker draws. IOW, all 100 of these attempts are holding a natural pair.

In this set of 100 hands, once again, I received nine total results that were from catching one of the two remaining cards of that rank, or the Joker. All nine results were 3OaK this time around and I did not get any Full Houses.

The overall results from above catching at least one card of a helpful rank are the same as above, based on 100 hands.

Overall, the probability of catching a total of 18 such hands that added matching ranks compared to roughly 36 expected (200 total hands drawn to), or less, will happen about 1 in 3,585 such attempts---if the game is fair.

Again, the sample size is statistically insignificant, except for the fact that we have predicted this would happen ahead of time and all other signs point to something about the game being unfair.

We know that the game does not have a compensatory element because you can toss dealt winners and not end up with a winner. The game probably decides what the player's result is going to be for a given hand ahead of time and assumes that the player will make the auto-holds when it does this.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
gunbj
• Posts: 84
Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Thanked by
August 5th, 2021 at 11:36:11 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

More Results

I think that's similar to what I've observed, basically the game doesn't want to improve on hands, specifically in my case with a sample size of 1020 spins I got less than half the 3oaks I should have an a lot fewer 2 pair than expected. Same with the straights.

gunbj
• Posts: 84
Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Thanked by
August 5th, 2021 at 11:39:24 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

The game probably decides what the player's result is going to be for a given hand ahead of time and assumes that the player will make the auto-holds when it does this.

That's what I think too, but then what happens if you don't follow the auto-hold? Are the card on the draw dealt randomly then? If so, how does the game assure a negative player edge? Can you improve on a hand that was predetermined thinking you would follow the auto-hold?
GaryJKoehler
• Posts: 200
Joined: Oct 22, 2015
Thanked by
August 5th, 2021 at 11:54:31 AM permalink
Another anecdotal observation. I played only 80 hands. The auto-select isn't always optimal. It usually has one hold two unsuited, non-paired high cards when only the lower pipped one should be held. I saw a few other types of non-optimal holds.

For what it is worth given such a small sample size, I was up over 300 units overall.
DRich
• Posts: 11896
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
Thanked by
August 5th, 2021 at 1:47:54 PM permalink
When I developed a video poker game for the lottery markets I tried to make the initial dealt hands occur with about the same probability they did in a random game. My game was set so the outcome was predetermined before the hand was dealt.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Mission146
• Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
Thanked by
August 5th, 2021 at 1:51:05 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

When I developed a video poker game for the lottery markets I tried to make the initial dealt hands occur with about the same probability they did in a random game. My game was set so the outcome was predetermined before the hand was dealt.

All else equal and understanding you can't know for sure, with what percentage confidence do you think not taking the auto-hold would make things worse overall on something like this?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
DRich
• Posts: 11896
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
Thanked by
August 5th, 2021 at 1:53:23 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

All else equal and understanding you can't know for sure, with what percentage confidence do you think not taking the auto-hold would make things worse overall on something like this?

On the games that I did it would make absolutely zero difference. The pre-determined result is the result. On a fair game the average player is usually close to 2% below expectation.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Mission146
• Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
Thanked by
August 5th, 2021 at 1:56:51 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

On the games that I did it would make absolutely zero difference. The pre-determined result is the result. On a fair game the average player is usually close to 2% below expectation.

Yeah, it sounds basically similar to PA Skill Games with that as well as certain Class II devices in Tribal Casinos. With the PA Skill Games version, it will award you a, 'Random,' prize if you make a hold that causes the intended result to be impossible...although, it tries to avoid giving you the ability to make such a hold.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
gunbj
• Posts: 84
Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Thanked by
August 6th, 2021 at 12:23:56 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Yeah, it sounds basically similar to PA Skill Games with that as well as certain Class II devices in Tribal Casinos. With the PA Skill Games version, it will award you a, 'Random,' prize if you make a hold that causes the intended result to be impossible...although, it tries to avoid giving you the ability to make such a hold.

However, this one doesn't award anything if you make it impossible to get a paying hand, so is it safe to say that by not following the auto-hold it's only possible to make things worse but impossible to improve a hand that was not intended?
However the auto-hold suggests to discard everything when strategy dictates you should hold a high card, and in some cases I get a pair on the draw disregarding auto-hold and following strategy. Would you still get a pair on that draw if you discarded everything as auto-hold suggested? Mmh...

Another strange thing about that game is the A...6 8...K writing on the left. What does that mean? I thought maybe it meant there are no 7s in the deck haha but there are...
ksdjdj
• Posts: 1707
Joined: Oct 20, 2013
Thanked by
August 6th, 2021 at 3:24:44 PM permalink
Quote: gunbj

Quote: Mission146

More Results

(snip)

The long-term average chance for "nothing" in the table should have been somewhere around 45% to 50%, right? (estimated from WoO JP Kings Strategy Maker figures combined with the 176...% figure in this thread).

Anyway, I initially thought the Amatic Slots company was a German *** one, because I saw GmbH ^^^ .in the name, but it is actually Austrian.

*** See link here >>> link << for the other reason why I thought it could be a German company (this was before I noticed GmbH in the name).

^^^: See 1 and 2 here >>> 1 and 2

Also, they have at least two more "Video Poker Style" games, Deuces Wild ("Full Pay"), and Fruit Poker, see link >>> link

Note: Deuces Wild seems to be Full Pay in the demo going by the pay-table , but if the game the OP posted about in this thread is anything to go by, it is more likely not Full Pay.

Also Note: I don't think I have ever played a game like Fruit Poker before, so don't know much about it, except if you press p when playing it, then it brings you to a screen that breaks down the number of cards left based on the card's symbol (amongst other things).
Last edited by: ksdjdj on Aug 6, 2021
gordonm888
• Posts: 5127
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
Thanked by
August 6th, 2021 at 4:53:22 PM permalink
Quote: ksdjdj

Also Note: I don't think I have ever played a game like Fruit Poker before, so don't know much about it, except if you press p when playing it, then it brings you to a screen that breaks down the number of cards left based on the card's symbol (amongst other things).

Fruit Poker seems to be a cross between VP and slots. You are dealt 5 cards, you discard and draw to complete your hand. Each card has 3 pips, but the pips are different symbols. You must collect at least 2X or 3x of one of the symbols to get a payout. You start with something like 139 cards with something like 13-19 (very roughly) of each symbol. Except for a red geometric signal that starts with almost 45 symbols but only pays 1:1 and only if you get all 5 cards to be that symbol. So, you really should be discarding those "poison pill" cards and drawing to something else.

The payouts and abundance of each symbol varies.

That's all I could perceive before I reached my game limit.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
gordonm888
• Posts: 5127
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
Thanked by
August 6th, 2021 at 5:12:28 PM permalink
Fruit Poker info:

Table is for an initial wager of 10 units.

Symbolinitial number5 cards pays4 cards pay 3 cards 2 cards1 card
Bars 11 1000050020000
Bell1610002505000
Melon1610002505000
Plum195001002000
Lemon195001002000
Cherry1250010020Bonus0
Diamond45100000
Face1000010

I had a reshuffle at 111 cards left.

That should be enough for some soul to calculate the fresh deck House Edge (except for the bonus payout).
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
gunbj
• Posts: 84
Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Thanked by
August 7th, 2021 at 1:31:02 AM permalink
Quote: ksdjdj

The long-term average chance for "nothing" in the table should have been somewhere around 45% to 50%, right? (estimated from WoO JP Kings Strategy Maker figures combined with the 176...% figure in this thread).

I think that's correct.

Quote: ksdjdj

Also, they have at least two more "Video Poker Style" games, Deuces Wild ("Full Pay"), and Fruit Poker, see link >>> link

Note: Deuces Wild seems to be Full Pay in the demo going by the pay-table , but if the game the OP posted about in this thread is anything to go by, it is more likely not Full Pay.

I have reason to believe and quite strong anecdotal evidence that suggests probably all their games including FPDW are not fair. The hand probabilities are probably preset very close to a fair game but slightly to the negative, similar to how @DRich described, putting it somewhere in the 99% RTP area.