petro
petro
Joined: Dec 6, 2010
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December 13th, 2010 at 9:18:23 PM permalink
Hi Joe,
I am relativly new to the video poker scene myself.
I would highly recommend the training software 'Winpoker' you can buy it off the internet.
Thats exactly what I did, I started on 9/6 Jacks or Better then went to full pay Deuces.
Deuces Wild is much harder to learn than Jacks or Better.
My best advice is to try and memorise the table for Jacks or Better that the Wizard has on his other site; 'Wizard of Odds.'
He has a strategy table for Duces Wild for optimal strategy (perfect strategy.)
And also practice on Winpoker.
This should get you playing perfectly in no time.
JerryLogan
JerryLogan
Joined: Jun 28, 2010
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December 13th, 2010 at 9:43:54 PM permalink
As a very viable alternative: I'm not a beginner, but I've been a regular player for a number of years who doesn't win. I know all about the expert play stuff etc., but I've never had the patience to put in the time or effort to learn it. It turns out I need to if I want to see winning trips on a more consistent basis. I now have Winpoker myself and it is very helpful for beginners (and I now consider myself a "beginner").

However, it isn't that simple. Simply learning to play the hands mathematically correct will not get you to the promise land. If it did, then the casinos would have gone out of business long ago and they'd have stopped offerring all those super duper promotions years earlier.

You may have read here where I posted a synopsis of my first mega-training session given free by Rob Singer over the weekend. He's a vp guru who does things quite differently. He plays to goals while managing his money, and he teaches extreme discipline and to do exactly the OPPOSITE as the casinos expect players to do. In other words, if you're an advantage player and chase a promotion that sounds and is juicy at theoretically over 100%, the casino wants you in their chairs. RS ignores all that and plays to his own tune.

Bottom line is with him training me for 7 long hours Saturday, I ended up taking over $4200 in profit from the machine I played under his guidance. He teaches to make certain plays (holds) that go against the math for the purpose of having the CHANCE of hitting a big winner, but these hold opportunities are only about 5% of your total # of hands. The rest of the hands are to be played math-perfect. There are not wild plays mind you, but well thought out plays arrived at via risk analyses. Nothing extraordinary happened in this session, but I did toss a pair of 9's while holding a pair of 3's on DDBP and hit the other two 3's (no kicker) on 25c. Imagine if that were to happen on $2 or $5.

I'm sold on his method but he is a very controversial figure to say the least. Mention his name on most forums and the math people will call you every name in the book. If you want more info on how you can contact him or read more about his strategy PM me. I'll be having another shorter training session next month. It's given me a whole new outlook on the game.
thecesspit
thecesspit
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
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December 13th, 2010 at 9:55:39 PM permalink
Or you can go to www.vptruth.com, his website that's up for the time being (he's taking it down in the New Year).

"Mention his name on most forums and the math people will call you every name in the book." : This has not happened on this forum. There's several names that Jerry Logan has not yet been called.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
mkl654321
mkl654321
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
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December 13th, 2010 at 10:22:39 PM permalink
There's no viable alternative to putting in the hard work:

1. To learn what the best games are, and how to identify them.
2. To learn the strategies for those games well enough to be able to consistently make the optimum plays.
3. To learn to identify the best slot clubs, promotions, etc. and how to take best advantage of them.

The above requires a methodical approach at first, but gets much easier as time goes on. It may not appeal to you; it doesn't appeal to a lot of people. Many "system" sellers will try to convince you that there is some way around the hard work. There isn't, other than simply "getting lucky". And relying on "getting lucky" may indeed work--you may hit a couple or three royals, and be way ahead. Learning the proper methods and strategies, however, gives you the exact same chance of getting lucky, but with the added benefit that you will be in better shape when lightning does strike.

For instance: if you play $1 full-pay Double Bonus (10/7), and play it optimally, when that royal does hit, you will then be slightly ahead (about $75), on average. If you play, say, 8/5 Bonus, you will still be behind even after the royal does hit, on average (about $350). If you play something lousy like 7/5 Bonus or 9/6 Double Bonus, you will be that much worse off (two times worse, or more).

Many system sellers bank on "the big win" to offset the certainty of long-term losses. However, using any strategy that plays ANY hands less than optimally will simply mean that you will be that much further behind when the big hand does hit. The seeming paradox is that going for the big hands at the expense of the smaller payouts actually increases your total loss. A good analogy would be the poker table: the player who wins the most pots is almost always the biggest loser. It isn't FREQUENCY of wins that counts; it's NET win (or loss).

Of course, the system flacks will pitch a very seductive line, telling you that rather than put in all that hard work, all you have to do is adopt their methods. It's tempting to listen to them, but doing the work is the only way to succeed (again, other than simply "getting lucky").
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
JerryLogan
JerryLogan
Joined: Jun 28, 2010
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December 14th, 2010 at 4:09:16 AM permalink
Having been a recent student of all the "hard work" it takes to learn how to play video poker correctly, if you're going to learn the much more sophisticated Rob Singer methodology, you'll find that it is much more detailed and therefore, complicated, than advantage play only. You first need to master 100% advantage play on the games you're going to play, then you have to master the holds that deviate from optimal play in order to give yourself the best opportunity to win "today". You also must pay attention to where you are vs. where you need to be at in your quest for certain and multiple win/loss goals as you surgically advance through the strategy.

It is interesting, challenging, and as I recently discovered, fun and very profitable. Your alternative? 100% advantage play which is, as RS says, the equivalent of sitting at a machine boring yourself to tears for hour after hour as you eventually realize you have become a slave to the casino and its promotions, a long-term loser, and have turned into an addicted gambler as well.

One other interesting point: Those who sell Advantage Play only do so for the purpose of making money from others so they may continue playing the game out of habit. RS sells you nothing and chats/trains for free, as I found out Saturday. So who's/what's your choice? Who you gonna trust? The guy selling you everything about the game, or the guy who meets and trains you on his own dime?
SanchoPanza
SanchoPanza
Joined: May 10, 2010
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December 14th, 2010 at 4:30:53 AM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

I ended up taking over $4200 in profit from the machine I played under his guidance.


Be sure to let us know the outcomes the next three or five times you play. Especially if they do not include royals.
JerryLogan
JerryLogan
Joined: Jun 28, 2010
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December 14th, 2010 at 5:16:29 AM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

Be sure to let us know the outcomes the next three or five times you play. Especially if they do not include royals.



Why wait. For this one, in two sessions I would have won at least $290, and that's pretending I won/lost nothing on the session I hit that royal in. So really, I'm already 3-0.

Now let's get into the biggest criticism RS told me he's faced that doesn't hold water. I expect to win at least 85% of my sessions because that's what RS has experienced over 10 years. But this is what he hears from people who really don't know what he does or how he does it: "There will be a lot of smaller winners such as the the two above, but when a big loser comes along (~$3300 in my case because that's the bankroll needed for one single session of play that I was taught on) it'll more than wipe out all those little wins". I think I've got that right so far. I also know that a total $3300 wipeout is going to be hard to come by, simply because of the multiple 40 credit minimum cashouts that occur.

But his counter is, and no one knows this more than me esp. after Sat., that there will be more big winners that will more than make up for the few big losers experienced along the way, and some of them will be a result of his special plays, which I have no reason to doubt will happen.

I will report on my next training next month right here, and if I lose and/or lose big I'll be honest and report it. I'm not in this for anything but trying to make money playing, and if it turns out to be a loser then I'll come down just as hard as RS's critics do on the strategy. Remember, I lose some money playing every year probably because I play like a moron. I'm trying to learn something better now and a lot of that has to do with me practicing on Winpoker, which Singer told me to get and I did immediately.
nope27
nope27
Joined: Sep 5, 2010
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December 14th, 2010 at 11:17:43 AM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

I will report on my next training next month right here, and if I lose and/or lose big I'll be honest and report it. I'm not in this for anything but trying to make money playing, and if it turns out to be a loser then I'll come down just as hard as RS's critics do on the strategy. Remember, I lose some money playing every year probably because I play like a moron. I'm trying to learn something better now and a lot of that has to do with me practicing on Winpoker, which Singer told me to get and I did immediately.


Thank you for your update.
It is interesting to hear from someone that wants to learn the truth in things that someone else does.

I have finished, with a friends help, in programming a software like Winpoker and also in Excel using VB, but with the ability of changing any play or plays as I choose.
It took more time to accomplish since I had to find someone with excellent programing skills and he was under my nose all the time.

Purpose was to program Singers styles of play, or anyones for that matter, with some of his "special plays" he has posted on the net.
The first few sims were flawless, then my friends computer started to have some issues.
Once that was finished, we only had a few chances to run other sims before he had to leave to a different part of the country. I am visiting Los Angeles for the week and will return home to finish the programming verification and final sims.

One change I made was to Singers play of moving to a higher denomination "earlier" to take advantage of the big hits, ie: quads or higher. That did lower the session win rate, increased the net profit but also increased the bust rate. The volatility went sky high.
His regular posted style of play, I ran 3 versions, showed a 87.32% combined win rate after 10,000 simulations.
I will post my results and updates in another thread in a few weeks upon returning home.

Question?
Is Mr Singer an easy guy to get along with learning his system?
Where does he prefer to show and teach his play?
Thank you
JerryLogan
JerryLogan
Joined: Jun 28, 2010
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December 14th, 2010 at 11:42:20 AM permalink
Question?
Is Mr Singer an easy guy to get along with learning his system?
Where does he prefer to show and teach his play?
Thank you
-----------------------------------

He is very easy to meet with, and his demeanor is nowhere near what his Internet reputation seems to be. He's a good teacher but I noticed some frustration when I wasn't paying attention, and he came right out and told me about it. But since I wasn't paying for his time I guess I deserved it.

He prefers to train etc. in Nevada casinos because he trusts the machines there to be fair. But since I live in the same city as he does he met with me at a local Indian casino, which is where we're meeting next month also.
nope27
nope27
Joined: Sep 5, 2010
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December 14th, 2010 at 2:16:33 PM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

Question?
Is Mr Singer an easy guy to get along with learning his system?
Where does he prefer to show and teach his play?
Thank you
-----------------------------------

He is very easy to meet with, and his demeanor is nowhere near what his Internet reputation seems to be. He's a good teacher but I noticed some frustration when I wasn't paying attention, and he came right out and told me about it. But since I wasn't paying for his time I guess I deserved it.

He prefers to train etc. in Nevada casinos because he trusts the machines there to be fair. But since I live in the same city as he does he met with me at a local Indian casino, which is where we're meeting next month also.


Does Singer have more "special plays" than have been published on the net?
That would be valuable in attempting to accurately program his playing strategies into a computer for simulations.
Has Singer himself programmed any software that accurately depicts his special plays?

Why does he not charge you for his time in teaching his system of VP play? Does he also play at the same time you are playing?
Thanks

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