Neutrino
Neutrino
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July 11th, 2017 at 3:44:29 PM permalink
Well, I kinda have a beef with games with the names like "bonus" and "deluxe" etc that make them sound like they're giving you extra stuff for free. It's not really a bonus in my opinion if they have to reduce the pay for 2 pairs and end up with even worse RTP% than original Jacks or Better.

So in semi joking protest, I invented a new VP called "Double Double Penalty Poker". You get penalised if you hit anything 4 of a kind or higher.

Based on a bet of 5 coins

Royal Flush---------------------------- 5
Straight Flush------------------------- 5
Four Aces with any 2,3,4--------------5
Four 2s, 3s, 4s with any A,2,3,4------- 5
Four Aces----------------------------- 5
Four 2s, 3s, 4s ----------------------- 5
Four 5s thru Ks----------------------- 5
Full House---------------------------- 60
Flush---------------------------------- 40
Straight------------------------------- 25
Three of a Kind----------------------- 15
Two Pair ----------------------------- 10
Jacks or Better ----------------------- 5
All Other------------------------------ 0

The RTP is 99.6%. Variance is only 3.38 compared to the 41.98 of double double bonus poker. I personally hate variance so I think I'd play this version of penalty poker over the bonus poker any day.
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
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July 11th, 2017 at 4:09:01 PM permalink
I think your game would be a total failure.
Except maybe with Aps
Without a chance for a big payoff I can't see anyone playing it.
I realize it was in jest.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
Mission146
Mission146
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July 11th, 2017 at 4:18:13 PM permalink
You really didn't have to list all the, 'Premium,' quads because none of them are premium, so it's basically just a JoB based game!

I'm not going to lie, I'd play that all day long if it would earn points at the normal level! Honestly, it really wouldn't be all that different from VBJ if the VBJ returned at the same percentage.

While we're on the subject, and I also play with stuff like this sometimes because we seem to share an unusual concept of, 'Fun,' I've decided to juice up your Royal a little and improve the Trips:

Royal: 500
SF: 5
Quads: 5
FH: 40
Flush: 30
Straight: 25
Trips: 20
2P: 10
JoB: 5
All Other: 0

RTP: 99.7090%
Variance: 2.58

I wonder if people would hold all five on dealt trips intuitively. Even on my paytable with the reduced FH, the correct decision is to hold any dealt trips along with one of the other two cards as opposed to keeping all five. I might think that people would intuitively keep all five (scared of hitting the quad), or alternatively, would throw away both of the other two cards and keep just the trips not really accounting for how much less likely that makes the FH and how much more likely it makes quads.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
Mission146
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July 11th, 2017 at 4:18:56 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

I think your game would be a total failure.
Except maybe with Aps
Without a chance for a big payoff I can't see anyone playing it.
I realize it was in jest.



I disagree, VBJ still exists on machines. I agree that it was probably in jest, but why play VBJ and not play this?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
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July 11th, 2017 at 4:23:53 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

I disagree, VBJ still exists on machines. I agree that it was probably in jest, but why play VBJ and not play this?


Well let me rephrase, I don't think too many vp players would play it.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
Mission146
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July 11th, 2017 at 4:26:50 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

Well let me rephrase, I don't think too many vp players would play it.



Fair enough, but file me in the, "Not too many," group! Especially if you bulk up the Royal a little bit to make it at least worth something. Isn't that really the one thing that VBJ is missing?

Most VBJ you can't split to four total hands, but what if Split-Split-Split Double-Double-Double-Double and win all won, like, 200x your original bet instead of it being individual hands if you won all of them? It would certainly considerably change the strategy, but don't you think the potential for that one huge payout would make the game more entertaining?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
billryan
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July 11th, 2017 at 4:30:45 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

I disagree, VBJ still exists on machines. I agree that it was probably in jest, but why play VBJ and not play this?



Because most people think they are getting paid 2-1 on BJ, not 2 for 1( even money).
Took me a while to figure it out.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
Mission146
Mission146
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July 11th, 2017 at 4:47:02 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

Because most people think they are getting paid 2-1 on BJ, not 2 for 1( even money).
Took me a while to figure it out.



I definitely agree with that, but a few people sometimes play it just to play it. A few people like it over VP on the bartops, I think the reason why is because of how low the Variance is, even at a $1.25 bet, we both know it's nothing to drop $100 in an hour at VP on a decent game. 800 hands an hour, $1,000 coin-in, you ran at 90% to lose $100. I think that if someone is primarily looking to drink, and doesn't want to deliberately slow play, you're not going to see them drop $100 on VBJ in an hour too frequently, especially not with a comparable bet of $0.50/hand. (I say that is comparable because of splits/doubles). Even at $1/hand, you'd have to go 100 base bets to the bad in an hour, that's not going to happen very often at all.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
billryan
billryan
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July 11th, 2017 at 5:21:43 PM permalink
I haven't played VBJ in a bar in many years, but there used to be a machine at a place called Thirsty's that was insidious. Once I was drunkenly having a good time, playing 5 50cent units a hand when I decided to let it ride. Won at $5, let it ride and won at $10. Did it again and won $20. So my I press my luck and let it ride again.
$40 in the machine and the machine gives me two 8s vs a dealer 6. I split and get a three. double, pull something to 18 or 19.Next hand, get a 2, go to double but need more money. I feed it and draw to twenty. Just then I realize I have $160 on the hand. I'm strictly a red chipper and here I have $160 on the line. Dealer turns over a ten, followed by a small card to push my one hand but take my $80 on the other hand. Crisis avoided, until I hit the repeat last bet button and find myself betting $40.
I get a ten vs dealers 7. I'm wise to its wily ways and don't double down and get a seven. Just as I'm thinking a good chance to push, he shows an Ace and
sucks down my $40. I still have about $60 in the machine so I cash out, load two tubs with quarters and have to deal with a bartender who thinks a $60 payout is tip worthy.
Stuff happens.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
AxelWolf
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July 11th, 2017 at 5:30:01 PM permalink
Someone has been spending too much time on 5 dimes, they have/had something like this called something like, even or equal pay VP.

It has been a while since I looked so, I'm not sure what they have now but they used to have all kinds of crazy VP games.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
DJTeddyBear
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July 11th, 2017 at 8:20:20 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

... would throw away both of the other two cards and keep just the trips not really accounting for how much less likely that makes the FH and how much more likely it makes quads.

Why is that?

I get that tossing both improves the odds of quads, but does it also decrease the odds of the FH?
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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July 11th, 2017 at 8:23:46 PM permalink
Brain fart. Never mind. I figured it out.

If quads are achieved, a FH is impossible. And tossing both, doubles the chance of quads. Etc.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
rsactuary
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July 11th, 2017 at 8:38:30 PM permalink
On a bit of a tangent, I have always been surprised that a version of VP that really paid off on straight flushes hasn't come about. That's one thing I hear a lot when people get one... it's not worth the value for how rare they are... so I came up with a JoB variant that pays 99.7%. Variance 49.77

RF 4000
SF 2000
4k 110
FH 30
Fl 25
St 20
3k 15
2p 10
Job 5

I was really surprised by how much the lower pays had to be lowered to make the SF work.
Neutrino
Neutrino
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July 11th, 2017 at 9:37:17 PM permalink
Quote: rsactuary

On a bit of a tangent, I have always been surprised that a version of VP that really paid off on straight flushes hasn't come about. That's one thing I hear a lot when people get one... it's not worth the value for how rare they are... so I came up with a JoB variant that pays 99.7%. Variance 49.77

RF 4000
SF 2000
4k 110
FH 30
Fl 25
St 20
3k 15
2p 10
Job 5

I was really surprised by how much the lower pays had to be lowered to make the SF work.




Sadly I don't think this pay table would work. Reason is most casinos want to be able to go cheap and reduce the RTP to like 95-98% instead of full pay. with a 6/5 on Fh/fl there's no room to decrease it further.

The only way to do this is to set 2 pairs to 1, like in most versions of "bonus" pokers, that way it can compensate for SF's higher payout while allowing casinos to keep lowering the FH/Fl to beyond greedy levels
malgorium
malgorium
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July 11th, 2017 at 9:53:42 PM permalink
Haha, I had some fun playing around with pay tables, and I came up with this 99.75% paytable, which I would personally play the heck out of. It's not very exciting, but your money would last a long time:

RF: 4000
SF: 80
4k: 75
FH: 30
FL: 25
ST: 20
3k: 20
2P: 10
JoB: 5
Mission146
Mission146
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July 11th, 2017 at 10:33:07 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Brain fart. Never mind. I figured it out.

If quads are achieved, a FH is impossible. And tossing both, doubles the chance of quads. Etc.



That too, but you're also throwing away a card you already have. What I mean is, if you keep one card, then you're 3/47 to hit the boat, but if you throw away both side cards and get one of the six remaining of the two ranks you threw away back, now you're only 2/46 to get another of those.

Meantime, if you hit one of the other ten ranks, you're still only 3/46 to match it.

Here are the FH's tossing both:

(4/47 * 3/46 *10) + (3/47 * 2/46 *2) = .06105458

Vs.

3/47 = .063829787

So, you're keeping something that you still have three more of in the deck as opposed to not only getting the quads, but also that 6/47 chance you'll hit something that will only leave you with two more in the deck as you draw the last card. As you can see, both:

3/47 * 2/46 * 2

AND

6/47 * 2/46

Equal:

.00555041628
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
tringlomane
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July 11th, 2017 at 11:15:36 PM permalink
Quote: rsactuary

On a bit of a tangent, I have always been surprised that a version of VP that really paid off on straight flushes hasn't come about. That's one thing I hear a lot when people get one... it's not worth the value for how rare they are... so I came up with a JoB variant that pays 99.7%. Variance 49.77

RF 4000
SF 2000
4k 110
FH 30
Fl 25
St 20
3k 15
2p 10
Job 5

I was really surprised by how much the lower pays had to be lowered to make the SF work.



The latest game kings have a version of this game, but it's rarely offered by casinos that have the latest game kings.

It's called "Straight Flush Deluxe" and full pay looks like this.

RF 4000
SF 2000
4K 250
FH 50
FL 30
ST 20
3K 15
2P 5
JB 5

Return = 99.12%. Variance 50.5

Strategy:
https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/strategy/a-1-b-74-c-1-d-0-d-1-d-1-d-3-d-4-d-6-d-10-d-50-d-400-d-800/

I tried quarter 10/6 briefly at Majestic Star in Indiana on game kings that offers nearly every game generally as long as it is below 99.5%. It also does offer 9/6 Triple Triple Bonus which is 99.75%. Both games ate my money pretty quick.

The main reason to not offer games like Straight Flush Deluxe is that strategy is a PITA!
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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July 12th, 2017 at 5:54:04 AM permalink
Mission:

THAT was the part I was missing.

And apparently, my brain fart was only a minor revelation. Your explanation REALLY tells the story.

Thanks
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Mission146
Mission146
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July 12th, 2017 at 6:00:58 AM permalink
Never a problem!
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
rsactuary
rsactuary
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July 12th, 2017 at 6:02:06 AM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

The latest game kings have a version of this game, but it's rarely offered by casinos that have the latest game kings.

It's called "Straight Flush Deluxe" and full pay looks like this.

RF 4000
SF 2000
4K 250
FH 50
FL 30
ST 20
3K 15
2P 5
JB 5

Return = 99.12%. Variance 50.5

Strategy:
https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/strategy/a-1-b-74-c-1-d-0-d-1-d-1-d-3-d-4-d-6-d-10-d-50-d-400-d-800/

I tried quarter 10/6 briefly at Majestic Star in Indiana on game kings that offers nearly every game generally as long as it is below 99.5%. It also does offer 9/6 Triple Triple Bonus which is 99.75%. Both games ate my money pretty quick.

The main reason to not offer games like Straight Flush Deluxe is that strategy is a PITA!



I thought of going with the two pair of 5, but that really decreased the RTP and was trying to keep it a JoB variant. Fun to do this kind of stuff though.
Mission146
Mission146
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July 12th, 2017 at 6:16:24 AM permalink
BillRyan,

That's a good story, the Reverse Martingale works until it doesn't! You see what I mean, though, some people play it just to play it. Sometimes, you'll also see someone who went nearly El Busto at a physical BJ table pop a $20 into one of the machines to try to run it up to $50 or $100, whatever minimum amount they would buy back in for.

RSActuary,

In addition to the other game that has already been mentioned, Joker Poker (Kings) also kind of fits the bill. At 50-FOR-1, the SF on that game is usually worth pretty close to 3% of the return, which is more than the Natural Royal even when the RFnJ pays 940-FOR-1. Obviously, that's the same return in terms of coin, but the combination of one wild card and strategy changes makes that hand much more likely.

Certain JP (2P) games also pay 100-FOR-1 on the SF, that game is a nightmare, though! It'll eat you alive. Also, the Natural Royal often pays 100-FOR-1 as well on those games.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
Mission146
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July 12th, 2017 at 6:18:03 AM permalink
Quote: malgorium

Haha, I had some fun playing around with pay tables, and I came up with this 99.75% paytable, which I would personally play the heck out of. It's not very exciting, but your money would last a long time:

RF: 4000
SF: 80
4k: 75
FH: 30
FL: 25
ST: 20
3k: 20
2P: 10
JoB: 5



I'd play it.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
Mission146
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July 12th, 2017 at 6:19:53 AM permalink
Quote: Neutrino

Sadly I don't think this pay table would work. Reason is most casinos want to be able to go cheap and reduce the RTP to like 95-98% instead of full pay. with a 6/5 on Fh/fl there's no room to decrease it further.

The only way to do this is to set 2 pairs to 1, like in most versions of "bonus" pokers, that way it can compensate for SF's higher payout while allowing casinos to keep lowering the FH/Fl to beyond greedy levels



I wouldn't say, 'Only,' way. You could go 5-4-3-3-2-1 or 5-4-4-3-2-1, plenty of stuff to play with.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
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Thanked by
tringlomane
July 12th, 2017 at 6:27:45 AM permalink
Quote: tringlomane


Strategy:
https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/strategy/a-1-b-74-c-1-d-0-d-1-d-1-d-3-d-4-d-6-d-10-d-50-d-400-d-800/

The main reason to not offer games like Straight Flush Deluxe is that strategy is a PITA!



Good lord! Low end (six high) SF double gaps over two consecutive to a Royal!?

2h3h6hJdQd---Hold 2-3-6

2h4h6hJdQd---Hold 2-4-6

Yeah, no thanks!

Actually, that's over any 2-to-a-RF, then! There's no way I would ever conceive of doing that without looking at a strategy chart.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
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