Request advice about VP tournaments

After our 5-day stay at the Cal last October 2016, we're starting to get flyers for free stays and tournaments.
This is the most recent one:
$15,000 Spring Video Poker Tournament
2-5 April 2017 (4 night free stay at the Cal OR at Main Street Station)
2 days of play on 3 & 4 Apr
Awards Banquet on 5 Apr
Limited to 150 participants

I'll also call the Cal to ask questions, but this is what I'd like to know since I've never joined a tournament:

1. What variety of VP will be played? JB? Deuces are Wild?
2. Any techniques recommended? (play for speed, ignore basic strategy sometimes, etc.)
3. How long are you sitting per tournament session?
4. Does the entire $15,000 go to one winner, or is it split up into smaller prizes for several winners?
5. Are the machines set to just play or do you have to do a coin-in?
6. What else should I know about VP tournaments?

We haven't decided if we'll go just yet, but there's a good chance since the timing is a few days away from my birthday!

Thanks in advance for your collective advice or tips!

LostWages

1, 3, 4 can be answered by calling and asking. Or check the flyer or website.

2: go for royals
5: they're usually "free to play" and however much in credits it pays out is what your score is. So it costs 0 credits to spin.
6: play as fast as possibke

#2 is Key. Whoever wins, is going to get a RF. So throw all correct strategy aside and play for a Royal every time.

EG: If the game is JoB, and you get dealt AAAA2, keep one A and throw the rest away.

Quote: rsactuary

#2 is Key. Whoever wins, is going to get a RF. So throw all correct strategy aside and play for a Royal every time.

EG: If the game is JoB, and you get dealt AAAA2, keep one A and throw the rest away.

I'd probably keep a 4oak over 1 to a RF in a tournament. Chances of hitting on that one hand are astronomically small....but if you do end up hitting a RF in the tourney, that 4oak could push you above the other people who got a RF.


But yeah, you're pretty much always drawing to royals.

Quote: rsactuary

#2 is Key. Whoever wins, is going to get a RF. So throw all correct strategy aside and play for a Royal every time.

EG: If the game is JoB, and you get dealt AAAA2, keep one A and throw the rest away.

I'm holding the quads here. Lower places often pay something too and tossing a quad is costly.

I keep meaning to try to run a sim for VP tournaments to estimate the efficiency of a "Royal Only Strategy" versus a more standard VP strategy (3RF > KK-JJ in DDB). But not enough motivation to do it for nothing. Blah.

Quote: RS

I'd probably keep a 4oak over 1 to a RF in a tournament. Chances of hitting on that one hand are astronomically small....but if you do end up hitting a RF in the tourney, that 4oak could push you above the other people who got a RF.


But yeah, you're pretty much always drawing to royals.

That's a fair assessment. Thanks!

Don't know about the Cal, but most video poker tournaments these days are Double Double Bonus. Fours aces with a kicker pay 2000. So going for royals OR aces is key.

Also, there are two very different sorts of vp tournaments. One is a "speed" tournament where you have some fixed number of minutes (5, 10, 15?) to play as many hands as possible. If I can play 800 hph and you can only play 600 hph, you giving up quite a bit of your chances to win. Do not consider using touch screen. if you're not a regular vp player, who sees combinations quickly, you basically have chance in these events.

There is another kind of tournament where you have a fixed number of hands (say 200), and you have 20 minutes to play them. They usually pick a time period where 90% or more of the players finish in the allotted time. In this type of tournament, accuracy is MUCH more important than speed.

Check the payout structure. If prizes go 10 deep --- being in 11th place is the exactly the same as being in 500th place.

If you can play late, do so --- especially if they post high scores. That gives you a target to aim at.

Quote: rsactuary

#2 is Key. Whoever wins, is going to get a RF. So throw all correct strategy aside and play for a Royal every time.

EG: If the game is JoB, and you get dealt AAAA2, keep one A and throw the rest away.

I didn't read the rest of the thread, but that is bad advice. The only time you would do that is if you were on your last hands and knew the only hand that would get any money was a RF. I assume others will correct that quickly.

I have been in a few tournaments where last place paid something(usually slots) I always thought About SLOW spinning or poupously holding the worst VP hands. I could never bring myself to do it. There's also always the chance another guy is trying to rank it as well.

I have seen in the rules you would be disqualified for attempting this.

This is a group thanks fo RS, RSactuary, Bob Dancer, & Axel Wolf for your collective tips.

I'm still trying to get through to the Cal for actual tourney details, but line's always busy. I'll keep trying.

My summary notes say:

- go for RF, disregard strategy
- alternatively, keep 4oak, esp 4 As with 2, 3, or 4 (pays 2,000 credits vs 4,000 for RF)
- avoid touch screen
- if SPEED tourney, play as fast as possible
- if timed for #hands, play fast but with accuracy
- play late or later, if possible, so you can see posted high score as goal to beat

Quote: AxelWolf

I didn't read the rest of the thread, but that is bad advice. The only time you would do that is if you were on your last hands and knew the only hand that would get any money was a RF. I assume others will correct that quickly.

This was pretty obvious misdirection IMHO. That is why I didn't comment on his advice. He was clearly telling people how bad to play so his odds would increase when trying to come in the money. I play VP tournaments aggressive for premium hands but for the most part I play standard strategy. Players have to understand that many players don't finish or play tournaments very good. You want to make the money and eventually you will fall into placing first. My main problem is showing up for all my tournaments. I always register and take the rooms but I am notorious for blowing off tournaments. I was at this " let it ride" tournament last week and didn't play since they were mobbed at over 700 players. The line was very long and I had 4 rounds to play but the hourly was better playing live action VP.

Last year I was at a VP tournament playing as fast as I could. You have 30 mins and I finished in 15 mins. The guy next to me made a crack about me playing too fast. What he didn't know was that across the street a progressive royal was at triple royal. The hourly on that game was over 100 per hour. The tournament was getting in my way.

Quote: monet0412

This was pretty obvious misdirection IMHO. That is why I didn't comment on his advice. He was clearly telling people how bad to play so his odds would increase when trying to come in the money. I play VP tournaments aggressive for premium hands but for the most part I play standard strategy. Players have to understand that many players don't finish or play tournaments very good. You want to make the money and eventually you will fall into placing first. My main problem is showing up for all my tournaments. I always register and take the rooms but I am notorious for blowing off tournaments. I was at this " let it ride" tournament last week and didn't play since they were mobbed at over 700 players. The line was very long and I had 4 rounds to play but the hourly was better playing live action VP.

Last year I was at a VP tournament playing as fast as I could. You have 30 mins and I finished in 15 mins. The guy next to me made a crack about me playing too fast. What he didn't know was that across the street a progressive royal was at triple royal. The hourly on that game was over 100 per hour. The tournament was getting in my way.

Monet - tks for your posting!

To previous posters of this thread: I finally got through to the Cal to get this information:

1. VP tournament will be Double Bonus Poker, played on 2nd floor at the Cal.

2. The 150 players get 20 min to use up 1500 credits in two sessions, Apr 4 & Apr 5 (banquet on Apr 5).

Meanwhile, we get another flyer yesterday for $200 discount on airfare (from Apr 2 to 31 May) PLUS: free ground transpo & baggage handling, BLD for 4 or 5 days (depending on what we book), choice of the Cal, Fremont, or MSS.

We haven't traveled often enough to Vegas to know how to handle two simultaneous coupons for free stays of 4 or 5 nights.

Questions:

1. Any change in VP tournament strategy, or is it still go for the RFs and disregard basic strategy?

2. How would the experienced travelers and users of coupons handle the 2 sets of coupons for free nights?

Thanks for your collective advice & tips!

Quote: monet0412

This was pretty obvious misdirection IMHO. That is why I didn't comment on his advice. He was clearly telling people how bad to play so his odds would increase when trying to come in the money.

Given who the poster was, I whole-heartedly disagree. I'm pretty sure he's not even from Vegas. And if you really believed that, you should have said something! I think he just quickly posted about the idea of the Royal Only Strategy (which has merit in some tournaments) without considering every nuance.

Quote: LostWages

Monet - tks for your posting!

To previous posters of this thread: I finally got through to the Cal to get this information:

1. VP tournament will be Double Bonus Poker, played on 2nd floor at the Cal.

2. The 150 players get 20 min to use up 1500 credits in two sessions, Apr 4 & Apr 5 (banquet on Apr 5).

Meanwhile, we get another flyer yesterday for $200 discount on airfare (from Apr 2 to 31 May) PLUS: free ground transpo & baggage handling, BLD for 4 or 5 days (depending on what we book), choice of the Cal, Fremont, or MSS.

We haven't traveled often enough to Vegas to know how to handle two simultaneous coupons for free stays of 4 or 5 nights.

Questions:

1. Any change in VP tournament strategy, or is it still go for the RFs and disregard basic strategy?

2. How would the experienced travelers and users of coupons handle the 2 sets of coupons for free nights?

Thanks for your collective advice & tips!

I would see re: #2 what the interval, if any is, between stays. With CET, they want 48 hours between offers usually. But you're coming all the way from Hawaii, so my first move would be to pick a 10 day stretch that works for you, then.call their VIP/host people and ask if you can use the offers back to back on such and such.dates. I think if you schedule after Easter and before Memorial Day, it's a dead time there and you may be successful. At worst, you might have to stay a couple.nights elsewhere in the middle.

I would guess that you should not try to get both air fare discounts, but.i could be wrong. I called to accept an airfare offer like that and instead, they picked up the entire tab for 2 people when I actually talked to them. So they might combine them for you on an extended stay.

You won't know til you.call, but you don't want a general operator, you want a vip host. They usually have more flexibility and autonomy.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I would see re: #2 what the interval, if any is, between stays. With CET, they want 48 hours between offers usually. But you're coming all the way from Hawaii, so my first move would be to pick a 10 day stretch that works for you, then.call their VIP/host people and ask if you can use the offers back to back on such and such.dates. I think if you schedule after Easter and before Memorial Day, it's a dead time there and you may be successful. At worst, you might have to stay a couple.nights elsewhere in the middle.

I would guess that you should not try to get both air fare discounts, but.i could be wrong. I called to accept an airfare offer like that and instead, they picked up the entire tab for 2 people when I actually talked to them. So they might combine them for you on an extended stay.

You won't know til you.call, but you don't want a general operator, you want a vip host. They usually have more flexibility and autonomy.

BBB - tks for your advice. OK, when we get to making the reservations, we'll ask for the VIP host!

In case you have add'l advice, or if others want to chime in:

Coupon #1 is ONLY for 4 night stay, 2-5 Apr, invitation to the VP tourney (for me only), but the hotel stay is 1 room per household, so my wife could stay "free". We can stay at the Cal or at MSS.

Coupon #2 is a $200 discount with Vacations of Hawaii, for non-stop, round-trip airfare on a charter flight (they're ok, we've been on these charter flights before). Duration of of offer is from 2 Apr to 31 May, with choice of the Cal, the Fremont, or MSS. Also incl free ground transpo & baggage handling, and BLD coupons for either 4 or 5 nights (whatever we book).

Current R/T airfare is about $750, depending what day of the week. So our out of pocket would be $1500 less $200 = $1300. Still a bit much, but it has all the free meals too.

Maybe we'll get a 3rd coupon for more discounts on airfare!

Now I have to get back to practicing my card-counting for playing BJ, since my time at the tournament is limited to 15 min sessions.

Thanks!

Quote: tringlomane

Given who the poster was, I whole-heartedly disagree. I'm pretty sure he's not even from Vegas. And if you really believed that, you should have said something! I think he just quickly posted about the idea of the Royal Only Strategy (which has merit in some tournaments) without considering every nuance.

You act like I was mad about his advice telling people to throw away quads and go for a royal. I liked the advice. Found it funny and still do. That's why I didn't say anything. Dancer and Axel ruined the whole thing telling people how to play somewhat. It's really up to the player. Your usually going to see two or three royals per tournament. Royal only strategy will either give you a shot at top 3 money or nothing. Especially in that tournament at the Cal. I know it well. You have to be Hawaiian or Asian or out of town to get that invite. You might get it if your home base for Boyd is the Cal... maybe. I get the Fremont invite but they take thier sweet time organizing that event. They get it going when they have a few whales scheduled to come in who like to play that tournament. Sometimes they run it with only 60-70 players. Pretty sweet actually. I've made top 5 money many times with only aces kicker and one other regular quad playing basic double royal DD strategy.

I'm not sure how the OP should handle the double offer. I'll tell you this. It doesnt take a lot of play for the Cal/Fremont/Main Street to comp you. Just ask the hosts or slot attendants. Since your staying with them and out of town they are gonna love you long time if you give them some action. Depending on what you play... you can get a lot for very little.

They play so bad at that upstairs tournament your best chance is to play double or triple royal strategy and shoot four the four aces when your able, kinda like super aces strategy. Just try to get in the money and hopefully you fall into some big hands.

Quote: monet0412

You act like I was mad about his advice telling people to throw away quads and go for a royal. I liked the advice. Found it funny and still do. That's why I didn't say anything. Dancer and Axel ruined the whole thing telling people how to play somewhat. It's really up to the player. Your usually going to see two or three royals per tournament. Royal only strategy will either give you a shot at top 3 money or nothing. Especially in that tournament at the Cal. I know it well. You have to be Hawaiian or Asian or out of town to get that invite. You might get it if your home base for Boyd is the Cal... maybe. I get the Fremont invite but they take thier sweet time organizing that event. They get it going when they have a few whales scheduled to come in who like to play that tournament. Sometimes they run it with only 60-70 players. Pretty sweet actually. I've made top 5 money many times with only aces kicker and one other regular quad playing basic double royal DD strategy.

I'm not sure how the OP should handle the double offer. I'll tell you this. It doesnt take a lot of play for the Cal/Fremont/Main Street to comp you. Just ask the hosts or slot attendants. Since your staying with them and out of town they are gonna love you long time if you give them some action. Depending on what you play... you can get a lot for very little.

They play so bad at that upstairs tournament your best chance is to play double or triple royal strategy and shoot four the four aces when your able, kinda like super aces strategy. Just try to get in the money and hopefully you fall into some big hands.

Monet - tks for your continued interest! I haven't played enough so I'm not familiar with "play double or triple Royal strategy". Do you mean go for 2 Royals if I make 1 Royal, and 3 Royals if time is still available? Maybe you could explain the terms you used?

Yes, I'll ask the hosts or slot attendants for comps at the appropriate moment. Since I'm only playing 20 min at a time of VP tournament, I'll spend some time at the BJ tables. My first (positive) experience was at their 2D $5 min tables . . . for variety, I'll re-visit the Ultimate X at the Holo-Holo Bar . . .

I won't worry about the double offer - I'll let my better half decide, as she likes to make reservations and plan trips.

Always open to suggestions from the WoO Forum!

Quote: LostWages

Monet - tks for your continued interest! I haven't played enough so I'm not familiar with "play double or triple Royal strategy". Do you mean go for 2 Royals if I make 1 Royal, and 3 Royals if time is still available? Maybe you could explain the terms you used?

Yes, I'll ask the hosts or slot attendants for comps at the appropriate moment. Since I'm only playing 20 min at a time of VP tournament, I'll spend some time at the BJ tables. My first (positive) experience was at their 2D $5 min tables . . . for variety, I'll re-visit the Ultimate X at the Holo-Holo Bar . . .

I won't worry about the double offer - I'll let my better half decide, as she likes to make reservations and plan trips.


Always open to suggestions from the WoO Forum!

You don't understand double or triple royal strategy huh? Well my advice to you is to just have fun and enjoy your vacation. Your not going to have enough time to memorize DD basic strategy and it sounds to me like your just in Vegas to have a vacation. Nothing wrong with that at all!

You do sound interested in sharpening your game but it isn't going to be worth your time to learn VP for a tournament. Your strategy changes when you play VP for 8000 or 12000 coin royals instead of 4000 coins. You won't have time to play and look at your phone for a specific hold.

I don't play tables with Boyd. I play reels and some VP. I don't think you'll get as good of comps with little BJ play compared to machines. You also need time to get things rolling. Once again I talk too much on this forum about good information. So I need to stop here.

I could tell you exactly what to play, how to play it, how much time you need and bankroll needed but I don't think you have enough time. That's most players problem, just not enough hours to get things to break right. You could easily lose a couple grand playing perfect. You need months for things to flip in you favor. Better not to play if you can't put thousands upon thousands of hours in. I tell people all the time if you can't invest the hours your better off making one huge bet and leave it at that. If you win you win if you lose you lose that amount. Most people come with x amount to lose and they play 2 dollar whatever and end up losing that amount anyway.

Quote: monet0412

You don't understand double or triple royal strategy huh? Well my advice to you is to just have fun and enjoy your vacation. Your not going to have enough time to memorize DD basic strategy and it sounds to me like your just in Vegas to have a vacation. Nothing wrong with that at all!

You do sound interested in sharpening your game but it isn't going to be worth your time to learn VP for a tournament. Your strategy changes when you play VP for 8000 or 12000 coin royals instead of 4000 coins. You won't have time to play and look at your phone for a specific hold.

I don't play tables with Boyd. I play reels and some VP. I don't think you'll get as good of comps with little BJ play compared to machines. You also need time to get things rolling. Once again I talk too much on this forum about good information. So I need to stop here.

I could tell you exactly what to play, how to play it, how much time you need and bankroll needed but I don't think you have enough time. That's most players problem, just not enough hours to get things to break right. You could easily lose a couple grand playing perfect. You need months for things to flip in you favor. Better not to play if you can't put thousands upon thousands of hours in. I tell people all the time if you can't invest the hours your better off making one huge bet and leave it at that. If you win you win if you lose you lose that amount. Most people come with x amount to lose and they play 2 dollar whatever and end up losing that amount anyway.

Monet - tks for add'l notes. Yeah, fully retired folks going for vacation, so we hope they (the Cal) will luv us long time with our modest bankrolls.

I think I understand what you're saying, and it's truly all about the variance, right? Sometimes, even with perfect basic strategy and card counting, the dealer gets all the BJs or squeaks you out by just 1 point! Grrrr. And sometimes, the RF comes out of the blue sky playing 0 strategy. We shall see. But either way, we'll plan on having fun first, and anything else will be extra bonus!

At great risk of repeating work done long ago by many others, I wrote a simulation to test these tournament strategies. Here are the details:

150 participants
Tournament length: 300 hands per player (assumes everyone completes all 300).
A tournament is won by the highest final total win. If there are ties, I give partial credit to each winning type of player.
We consider two types of tournaments. In one, players play Double Double Poker (98.98% 9-6) and the other Double Bonus Poker (98.81% 10-7-4). We refer to these as DD and DB, respectively.

Players follow a set strategy. In the following we consider mixtures of the following types of players:
OPTIMAL players: These players always pick plays that maximize expected value (EV).
TOP1 players: These players choose holds that maximize the probability of the top outcome (in DD and DB this is the Royal Straight Flush)
TOP2 players: These players choose between holding for the top two paying outcomes by choosing the hold with the larger EV of the two. In the games we look at, this means choosing between a Royal Straight Flush hold or Four Aces.
MTOP# players: These are Modified TOP1 or TOP2 type of players who play a normal optimal play when their best hold is to discard all cards. For example, if the dealt hand doesn’t contain any 10s, Jacks, Queens, Kings or Aces, the player would decide how to play the hand as would an OPTIMAL player.

We ran several sets of experiments computing the average percentage wins by each player type after 10,000 tournaments.
In the first we have 50 players of types OPTIMAL, TOP1 and TOP2. Here are the outcomes showing the percentage of tournament wins by each player type:

	DD	DB
OPTIMAL	45.3%	47.1%
TOP1	22.3%	27.2%
TOP2	32.4%	25.7%
(# Tied Tournaments)	64, two were 3-way ties	58, one was a 3-way

As expected, when the second best outcome is smaller (e.g., in Double Bonus compared to Double Double Bonus), then the TOP2 strategy isn’t as effective. So, in the second set of experiments, we removed the inferior “TOP” players and increased the two remaining types to 75 players each. Here are the outcomes:

	DD	DB
OPTIMAL	60.0%	60.2%
TOP1	-	39.8
TOP2	40.0%	-
(# Tied Tournaments)	51, one was a 3-way	60, one was a 3-way

In the third set of experiments, we ran the second experiment with MTOP# players. The results were:

	DD	DB
OPTIMAL	58.9%	60.4%
MTOP1	-	39.6%
MTOP2	41.1%	-
(# Tied Tournaments)	46	38

MTOP1 was roughly the same as TOP1 while MTOP2 performed slightly better than TOP2.

Under the assumptions in place, playing OPTIMAL strategy seems to be a better over-all strategy given equal representation of player types in the tournament.

If you’d like to see a different set of parameters or assumptions or games/pay tables or if I’m missing the boat completely, please let me know.

This is great stuff, GaryJ. Thanks for taking the time and especially for the tabled results.

Quote: GaryJKoehler

At great risk of repeating work done long ago by many others, I wrote a simulation to test these tournament strategies. Here are the details:

150 participants
Tournament length: 300 hands per player (assumes everyone completes all 300).
A tournament is won by the highest final total win. If there are ties, I give partial credit to each winning type of player.
We consider two types of tournaments. In one, players play Double Double Poker (98.98% 9-6) and the other Double Bonus Poker (98.81% 10-7-4). We refer to these as DD and DB, respectively.

Players follow a set strategy. In the following we consider mixtures of the following types of players:
OPTIMAL players: These players always pick plays that maximize expected value (EV).
TOP1 players: These players choose holds that maximize the probability of the top outcome (in DD and DB this is the Royal Straight Flush)
TOP2 players: These players choose between holding for the top two paying outcomes by choosing the hold with the larger EV of the two. In the games we look at, this means choosing between a Royal Straight Flush hold or Four Aces.
MTOP# players: These are Modified TOP1 or TOP2 type of players who play a normal optimal play when their best hold is to discard all cards. For example, if the dealt hand doesn’t contain any 10s, Jacks, Queens, Kings or Aces, the player would decide how to play the hand as would an OPTIMAL player.

We ran several sets of experiments computing the average percentage wins by each player type after 10,000 tournaments.
In the first we have 50 players of types OPTIMAL, TOP1 and TOP2. Here are the outcomes showing the percentage of tournament wins by each player type:

	DD	DB
OPTIMAL	45.3%	47.1%
TOP1	22.3%	27.2%
TOP2	32.4%	25.7%
(# Tied Tournaments)	64, two were 3-way ties	58, one was a 3-way

As expected, when the second best outcome is smaller (e.g., in Double Bonus compared to Double Double Bonus), then the TOP2 strategy isn’t as effective. So, in the second set of experiments, we removed the inferior “TOP” players and increased the two remaining types to 75 players each. Here are the outcomes:

	DD	DB
OPTIMAL	60.0%	60.2%
TOP1	-	39.8
TOP2	40.0%	-
(# Tied Tournaments)	51, one was a 3-way	60, one was a 3-way

In the third set of experiments, we ran the second experiment with MTOP# players. The results were:

	DD	DB
OPTIMAL	58.9%	60.4%
MTOP1	-	39.6%
MTOP2	41.1%	-
(# Tied Tournaments)	46	38

MTOP1 was roughly the same as TOP1 while MTOP2 performed slightly better than TOP2.

Under the assumptions in place, playing OPTIMAL strategy seems to be a better over-all strategy given equal representation of player types in the tournament.

If you’d like to see a different set of parameters or assumptions or games/pay tables or if I’m missing the boat completely, please let me know.

Aloha, Gary!

What a revealing and well-explained presentation of VP tournament strategy to play.

If my VP tournament conditions were exactly as you've laid out, I interpret that the best play is just to play basic strategy, and not "go for broke for RFs and 4oak". Did I interpret your tables correctly, where all the best results shown were for OPTIMAL for all 3 conditions?

The actual Cal tournament conditions are different from the one you presented, where the players must complete 300 HANDS in a given amount of time.

I was able to call the Cal to get more tournament details:

$15,000 prize total (I didn't ask the breakdown)
150 players max
VP variety is Double Bonus Poker or DB
Each player is given 1500 credits and a 20 min time to play: once on Apr 4, and on the finals on Apr 5.

If your time allows, it would be great to see your analysis for best strategy for this VP tournament.

Mahalo!

Thanks BeachBumBabs and LostWages.

Yes LostWages, you interpreted the results correctly.

1. I had 150 total players (your max is 150), so that matches.
2. I have the results for DB (it would be nice to know exactly which DB pay table they use), so that matches.
3. I'm not sure what to do about the 1500 credits and 20 minutes of play. I interpret 1500 as 300 hands (1500/5 for max bet) and assume, conservatively, that everyone finished in 20 minutes. Any suggestion to the contrary would be great.

I'll be more than happy to run additional simulations if we can nail-down what should be changed.

One point, I assumed equal player types in the tournament. Clearly if 149 are playing "go for Royal" and only 1 person is playing OPTIMAL strategy, then the chances for that one person winning are diminished by the shear imbalance. I think I'll run some additional experiments where the player-type sizes aren't equal.

Quote: GaryJKoehler

Thanks BeachBumBabs and LostWages.

Yes LostWages, you interpreted the results correctly.

1. I had 150 total players (your max is 150), so that matches.
2. I have the results for DB (it would be nice to know exactly which DB pay table they use), so that matches.
3. I'm not sure what to do about the 1500 credits and 20 minutes of play. I interpret 1500 as 300 hands (1500/5 for max bet) and assume, conservatively, that everyone finished in 20 minutes. Any suggestion to the contrary would be great.

I'll be more than happy to run additional simulations if we can nail-down what should be changed.

One point, I assumed equal player types in the tournament. Clearly if 149 are playing "go for Royal" and only 1 person is playing OPTIMAL strategy, then the chances for that one person winning are diminished by the shear imbalance. I think I'll run some additional experiments where the player-type sizes aren't equal.

Heads-up apologies to Administrator BBB, in case this reply shows as a duplicate. I posted this about 2 hrs ago, but it disappeared (?).

Gary - thank for your continued interest, I feel honored.

On page 1 of this OP, Bob Dancer offered his VP tournament strategy explanation:

" . . . Also, there are two very different sorts of vp tournaments. One is a "speed" tournament where you have some fixed number of minutes (5, 10, 15?) to play as many hands as possible. If I can play 800 hph and you can only play 600 hph, you giving up quite a bit of your chances to win. Do not consider using touch screen. if you're not a regular vp player, who sees combinations quickly, you basically have chance in these events.

There is another kind of tournament where you have a fixed number of hands (say 200), and you have 20 minutes to play them. They usually pick a time period where 90% or more of the players finish in the allotted time. In this type of tournament, accuracy is MUCH more important than speed. "

The second paragraph matches the explanation you offered me, so you and Bob Dancer both agree that accuracy is more important in that kind of tournament.

However, the tournament I've signed up for is a SPEED tournament.

BTW, I think this tournament is an invitation only to the Hawaii market. If that's true, and all 150 players sign up, there will be 1 newbie (me) playing against 149 of the foxiest casino players you could meet! Just walk the Cal and you'd know what I mean!

I'm not sure what other variables could help your simulation. How about the payout tables for DB? Note: some other posters on the WoO VP Forum say tournament machines might be modified, e.g., like pre-set to give everyone 1500 credits with a 20-min time limit.

This VPfree2 link should bring you to the 2 different DB machines at the Cal. I'm not sure why the payout tables are different, except to match the % rating (?).

http://www.vpfree2.com/casino/california-hotel-and-casino

100.17%
1-1-3-5-7-10-50-80-160-50-800

99.11% DB
1-1-3-5-7-9-50-80-160

Thanks again, hope you have a pleasant Super Bowl Sunday!

"BTW, I think this tournament is an invitation only to the Hawaii market. If that's true, and all 150 players sign up, there will be 1 newbie (me) playing against 149 of the foxiest casino players you could meet! Just walk the Cal and you'd know what I mean!"

Self-editing: "foxiest" as in the wiliest, crafty players . . .

LW

Quote: LostWages

This VPfree2 link should bring you to the 2 different DB machines at the Cal. I'm not sure why the payout tables are different, except to match the % rating (?).

http://www.vpfree2.com/casino/california-hotel-and-casino

100.17%
1-1-3-5-7-10-50-80-160-50-800

99.11% DB
1-1-3-5-7-9-50-80-160

Thanks again, hope you have a pleasant Super Bowl Sunday!

Yes, the pay tables determine the games overall EV. One thing about VPFRee2, it is my understanding they only track the 99+% EV games, so if a casino has DB machines with lower EVs, then they wouldn't be listed at VPFree2. So you might face a different type of machine. And, thus, your playing strategy would have to be different for OPTIMAL play.

Saw
http://stickman.casinocitytimes.com/article/playing-in-video-poker-tournaments-61702

Two things that struck me:
First:
"Sometimes tournament play includes inflated pays for various hands. The higher scores make the tournament more exciting, but can also mean play strategy could change."

Thus, the machine may not be a normal DB machine.


Second:
"Normally you will want to use your standard play strategy for the game you are playing. However, since a royal can be the difference between winning and losing, you might want to “favor” a royal draw over smaller outcomes. For example, if you are dealt a high pair along with three cards of a royal, saving the three of a royal might be the hold you want to make."

This suggests a more subtle "go for Royals" approach. May need to run more simulations.

I still have no clue on what to do to simulate timed-tournaments except to have sub-groups of player-types that don't finish.

Quote: GaryJKoehler

Yes, the pay tables determine the games overall EV. One thing about VPFRee2, it is my understanding they only track the 99+% EV games, so if a casino has DB machines with lower EVs, then they wouldn't be listed at VPFree2. So you might face a different type of machine. And, thus, your playing strategy would have to be different for OPTIMAL play.

Saw
http://stickman.casinocitytimes.com/article/playing-in-video-poker-tournaments-61702

Two things that struck me:
First:
"Sometimes tournament play includes inflated pays for various hands. The higher scores make the tournament more exciting, but can also mean play strategy could change."

Thus, the machine may not be a normal DB machine.


Second:
"Normally you will want to use your standard play strategy for the game you are playing. However, since a royal can be the difference between winning and losing, you might want to “favor” a royal draw over smaller outcomes. For example, if you are dealt a high pair along with three cards of a royal, saving the three of a royal might be the hold you want to make."

This suggests a more subtle "go for Royals" approach. May need to run more simulations.

I still have no clue on what to do to simulate timed-tournaments except to have sub-groups of player-types that don't finish.

2/5 Happy SuperBowl Sunday to you Gary!

We are not real sports enthusiasts, but we look forward to enjoying the SuperBowl Commercials - especially this year because the first Hawaiian commercial will be featured on King's Hawaiian. This is primarily sweet bread, which every kid on the island grows up with. They have the regular variety of rolls, but this year they are experimenting with BBQ sauce. Look for the "False Cabinet" commercial - parents hide the rolls, but the kids figure out where it is. http://www.kingshawaiian.com/

Your link to Jerry Stickman's article certainly reinforces your suggestions and the ones posted on my OP.

To simulate timed events like the VP tournament I'm entering, perhaps you would consider sending a PM to Romes. I have a short history with him, as he gave me the support and encouragement to play my first BJ game last October at the Cal! He is an accomplished mathematician/engineer, and often replies to discussions on simulations. By all means, use my name as your intro (unless you already know him).

Quote: GaryJKoehler

Yes, the pay tables determine the games overall EV. One thing about VPFRee2, it is my understanding they only track the 99+% EV games, so if a casino has DB machines with lower EVs, then they wouldn't be listed at VPFree2. So you might face a different type of machine. And, thus, your playing strategy would have to be different for OPTIMAL play.

Maybe at one time it was true that vpfree2 only showed 99%+ games, but now with all the downgrades, there are plenty of sub-99% games listed since they are now the "best" games.

I am frequently downtown so I took at look at the vp tournament machines at the Cal. There are several banks of these on the 2nd floor. They are older machines roped off from the public machines. All of them had the 9/6 DDB (98.98%) paytable.

Quote: AKT60

Maybe at one time it was true that vpfree2 only showed 99%+ games, but now with all the downgrades, there are plenty of sub-99% games listed since they are now the "best" games.

I am frequently downtown so I took at look at the vp tournament machines at the Cal. There are several banks of these on the 2nd floor. They are older machines roped off from the public machines. All of them had the 9/6 DDB (98.98%) paytable.

AKT60 - thanks for your interest in this OP. Appreciate the eyes-on feedback of the tournament machines. I should call the Cal again, just so I can be practicing with the right VP flavor - when I called them last week, the Marketing folks said the VP was DB, not DDB. However, I will venture a guess that in a "speed" tournament, the VP variety won't matter that much, as long as I can take advantage of using up 1500 credits in 20 min.

LW

I am not an expert on this. I have seen them setting up machines for tournament play before. The tournament is a separate setting with a key stop from normal operation on many machines. They can change paytables, load credits, set them for all free play, put them on a timer, do all sorts of things to build the tournament structure they want.

So I think it would be a mistake to assume they will operate as if they were in normal cash - accepting individual machines with a particular paytable mode . I would expect them to use the loosest possible paytable, one they may never offer in normal mode, for higher scores and to let people feel like winners. JMHO. I'm sure there are other people on here who know more about it. But I agree you should still use best strategy over go for broke, even more so with a loose paytable.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I am not an expert on this. I have seen them setting up machines for tournament play before. The tournament is a separate setting with a key stop from normal operation on many machines. They can change paytables, load credits, set them for all free play, put them on a timer, do all sorts of things to build the tournament structure they want.

So I think it would be a mistake to assume they will operate as if they were in normal cash - accepting individual machines with a particular paytable mode . I would expect them to use the loosest possible paytable, one they may never offer in normal mode, for higher scores and to let people feel like winners. JMHO. I'm sure there are other people on here who know more about it. But I agree you should still use best strategy over go for broke, even more so with a loose paytable.

BBB - thanks for chiming in with your comments and advice. You've neatly summarized what various other posters have said about the "changing of the machines" - except your explanation captured more aspects!

I'll be a VP tournament newbie, but as you've noted, I should be prepared to play with modified machines that meet the tournament structure the Cal wants. In my Oct 2016 visit to the Cal, I bumped into several dozen casino players from Hawaii - slot genies, VP winners that seemed to get lots of 4oak and RFs, and even "low roller" BJ players that might have only bet $5-$15, but were playing lucky pairs on every deal AND winning (big variances in their favor). Anyway, it looks like Apr 4-5 of the 150 players will be one newbie (me) against these 149 wily players. Should be good fun considering 5 free nights and $200 package discount on airfare plus free B, L, & D coupons. At least I don't have arthritic hands (yet!), and my eyesight is still 20-20.

Yes, I'll use best strategy in a VP tournament that is timed to complete X # of hands in Y # of minutes.

For this upcoming VP tournament in April, it will be a "speed" tournament calling for go for broke strategy. I have to use up 1500 credits in 20 min on Apr 4; if I score high enough, I get another 1500 credits in 20 min on finals day Apr 5.

Quote: LostWages

For this upcoming VP tournament in April, it will be a "speed" tournament calling for go for broke strategy. I have to use up 1500 credits in 20 min on Apr 4; if I score high enough, I get another 1500 credits in 20 min on finals day Apr 5.

A 900 hand/hr pace? You should be able to play optimal strategy and complete all the hands with enough practice. The key is to skip the winning hand coin count up. The one tourney I did was 200 hands in 15 minutes (800 hand/hr) pace. Played optimal strategy mostly, but I debated AA vs. 3 to a royal near the end with 3 minutes to spare. Took AA since it was DDB and hitting quad Aces or AWAK might get me in the money. If it was a pair of face cards, I would have went for 3 to a Royal. My g/f beat me in time and score.

It looks like Gary's data hints to playing optimal strategy if you can complete your allotted hands in the given time frame.

Quote: tringlomane

A 900 hand/hr pace? You should be able to play optimal strategy and complete all the hands with enough practice. The key is to skip the winning hand coin count up. The one tourney I did was 200 hands in 15 minutes (800 hand/hr) pace. Played optimal strategy mostly, but I debated AA vs. 3 to a royal near the end with 3 minutes to spare. Took AA since it was DDB and hitting quad Aces or AWAK might get me in the money. If it was a pair of face cards, I would have went for 3 to a Royal. My g/f beat me in time and score.

It looks like Gary's data hints to playing optimal strategy if you can complete your allotted hands in the given time frame.

Tringlomane - thanks for chiming in!

Indeed, Gary's data not only hints, but is tabulated to show 3 different scenarios where optimal play is achieved by applying basic strategy in a tournament where you play 300 hands in a set amount of time.

(The VP tournament I'm entering is a "speed" tournament to use up 1500 credits in 20 min. We are not given an allotted number of hands, but rather a set amount of credits).

Could you pls explain "the key is to skip the winning hand coin count up"?

Perhaps I have misunderstood the intentions of your post??

My VP knowledge is limited, so I am wondering where you got the 900 hands/hour pace playing optimal strategy.

VideoPoker.com forum has entries stating a range of 700 to 1,000 hands per hour for single line play.

My best guess is my HPH is between 725-775, but I've never played for speed before.

Is there a way I can calculate my own # hands/hour using my iPad VP games? If you know how to calculate HPH, which of the techniques below is the better one, assuming use of 5 or 10 minute observation/counting sessions.

1. Just set a timer and try to count the # of hands
2. Use your player's card for starting points and ending points (not sure what the next step would be)
3. Use a clicker
4. Play as fast as you can and have an observer do the counting

Quote: LostWages

Tringlomane - thanks for chiming in!

Indeed, Gary's data not only hints, but is tabulated to show 3 different scenarios where optimal play is achieved by applying basic strategy in a tournament where you play 300 hands in a set amount of time.

(The VP tournament I'm entering is a "speed" tournament to use up 1500 credits in 20 min. We are not given an allotted number of hands, but rather a set amount of credits).

Could you pls explain "the key is to skip the winning hand coin count up"?

Perhaps I have misunderstood the intentions of your post??

My VP knowledge is limited, so I am wondering where you got the 900 hands/hour pace playing optimal strategy.

VideoPoker.com forum has entries stating a range of 700 to 1,000 hands per hour for single line play.

My best guess is my HPH is between 725-775, but I've never played for speed before.

Is there a way I can calculate my own # hands/hour using my iPad VP games? If you know how to calculate HPH, which of the techniques below is the better one, assuming use of 5 or 10 minute observation/counting sessions.

1. Just set a timer and try to count the # of hands
2. Use your player's card for starting points and ending points (not sure what the next step would be)
3. Use a clicker
4. Play as fast as you can and have an observer do the counting

#1 is bad because counting can be hard, especially if you're playing as fast as you can -- plus, it can slow you down because (at least for me), if I see something like 34679 I might think to myself, "3467" for the hold, or if I see 55375 I'll think, "555" when I go to hold it. If you're playing fast, you'll miscount.

#2 is best, because all you gotta do is play and at the end of X minutes, figure out how much coin in you did, divide that by how much you're playing per hand, then do basic math to figure out how many hands you played in that time and what that correlates to in an hour. Also, you can do this multiple times. You can do it for a 10 minute session, then keep playing and do it again after 30 minutes...then again after 60 minutes, as the calculation is fairly easy and you can do it in your head while you're playing, without fear of messing something up. Also, there'll be less variance in your calculated HPH the more time you play, because a 5 minute window isn't that long and you may have only played for 4 minutes or up to 6 minutes.

#3 is bad because you gotta 'click' every hand you play, slowing you down.

#4 is bad, IMO, because someone has to actually observe and count the # of hands you play AND you'll need that second person there to help you whenever you wanna count your HPH. Sometimes, HPH is very important, especially if you're on a limited time promo or something like that. Different machines have different speeds. You might get through 600 HPH on some machines but do 1100 HPH on others, for a fast player. If you're limited on time for the play, the difference in EV can be very low (at 600 HPH) or it can nearly double if you're playing 1100 HPH. If you can't accurately count your HPH on your own, you might end up playing something that isn't worth your while (especially if you have $500 in expenses....you have a play where you THINK you can get in $400/hour in EV for 8 hours at 1000 HPH...but then realize you can only play 500 HPH...your EV goes from $3200-500 = $2700 down to $1600-500 = $1100. If you're bringing $10,000 cash and figure you have a 2% chance of it getting taken away (that's -$200 in EV), then your EV for the play is $2500 @ 1k HPH vs $900 @ 500 HPH.

Another example would be, if you want to do $100,000 coin in on a $5 machine. At 1000 HPH that's 4 hours. A fairly long session (IMO), but not too terribly bad. If you can only play 600 HPH, that's 6 hours and 40 minutes, at which point you may figure it's not worth it (hourly too low), although doubtful...but more importantly, after playing for that long you may start to have some fatigue -- making mistakes and even ultimately slowing down and not being able to play as quickly as you could at the beginning of the session, because you're getting tired, hungry, etc.

On the other hand, if you think you're playing at 600 HPH but you're really playing 1000 HPH, then you're playing 2/3'rds more. In a time restricted promotion (say 4 hours), instead of playing 2400 hands you're playing 4000 hands. When calculating how much bankroll (session bankroll) you'll likely be needing, especially if the play has a decent amount of volatility, you'll end up calculating a number reflective of 2400 hands played, not 4000 hands played, which means the BR you'll bring to the play will be a fair amount smaller than what you really should be bringing.

Also, if you keep a record of your EV (for a time limited promotion) you will be under or over estimating your EV if you're not playing the HPH you thought you were. Thinking you had $2700 in EV but really only getting $1100 in EV....and coming out of the play at +$1300, you may write that down as being BELOW expectation, when in reality, you were ABOVE expectation. This can really f*** with you, if you're looking at your EV vs ACTUAL graph on your spreadsheet. You may think you're making playing mistakes or something like that, not even realizing that your HPH is the cause for you not getting to your EV.

IOW: Imagine if you play full pay deuces wild and you think you're doing 1000 HPH but you're really doing 600 HPH. Or a card counter who assumes 100 rounds per hour but he's really getting in 40 rounds per hour.


Being able to know how fast you can play is usually not a concern, at least in my experience, since stuff is usually not time sensitive, but sometimes it can definitely make a big difference.

LW,

1500 credits at 5 credits max bet per hand is 300 hands. (There are some machines that allow more than 5 credits max, but that's the standard on game kings). That's why tring said 900 HPH. 300 hands in 20 minutes.

That's a very fast pace imo. I still think you should do best strategy, though, just not dwell on hands.

Quote: beachbumbabs

still think you should do best strategy, though, just not dwell on hands.

When I play in VP tournaments I start playing a strategy similar to optimal but I will weight a few RF hands higher than they would normally be. The key for me is constantly adjusting my strategy based on how well I am doing at different time intervals. If I believe my score is below expectation of the top 30% I will dynamically adjust strategy to be more aggressive and go for higher rewarding hands.

Quote: LostWages

Could you pls explain "the key is to skip the winning hand coin count up"?

If you make a winning hand, the machine will begin to count your win. Hit the draw/deal button to skip that process to the end. Then hit the button again to begin the next hand.

Quote: RS

#1 is bad because counting can be hard, especially if you're playing as fast as you can -- plus, it can slow you down because (at least for me), if I see something like 34679 I might think to myself, "3467" for the hold, or if I see 55375 I'll think, "555" when I go to hold it. If you're playing fast, you'll miscount.

#2 is best, because all you gotta do is play and at the end of X minutes, figure out how much coin in you did, divide that by how much you're playing per hand, then do basic math to figure out how many hands you played in that time and what that correlates to in an hour. Also, you can do this multiple times. You can do it for a 10 minute session, then keep playing and do it again after 30 minutes...then again after 60 minutes, as the calculation is fairly easy and you can do it in your head while you're playing, without fear of messing something up. Also, there'll be less variance in your calculated HPH the more time you play, because a 5 minute window isn't that long and you may have only played for 4 minutes or up to 6 minutes.

#3 is bad because you gotta 'click' every hand you play, slowing you down.

#4 is bad, IMO, because someone has to actually observe and count the # of hands you play AND you'll need that second person there to help you whenever you wanna count your HPH. Sometimes, HPH is very important, especially if you're on a limited time promo or something like that. Different machines have different speeds. You might get through 600 HPH on some machines but do 1100 HPH on others, for a fast player. If you're limited on time for the play, the difference in EV can be very low (at 600 HPH) or it can nearly double if you're playing 1100 HPH. If you can't accurately count your HPH on your own, you might end up playing something that isn't worth your while (especially if you have $500 in expenses....you have a play where you THINK you can get in $400/hour in EV for 8 hours at 1000 HPH...but then realize you can only play 500 HPH...your EV goes from $3200-500 = $2700 down to $1600-500 = $1100. If you're bringing $10,000 cash and figure you have a 2% chance of it getting taken away (that's -$200 in EV), then your EV for the play is $2500 @ 1k HPH vs $900 @ 500 HPH.

Another example would be, if you want to do $100,000 coin in on a $5 machine. At 1000 HPH that's 4 hours. A fairly long session (IMO), but not too terribly bad. If you can only play 600 HPH, that's 6 hours and 40 minutes, at which point you may figure it's not worth it (hourly too low), although doubtful...but more importantly, after playing for that long you may start to have some fatigue -- making mistakes and even ultimately slowing down and not being able to play as quickly as you could at the beginning of the session, because you're getting tired, hungry, etc.

On the other hand, if you think you're playing at 600 HPH but you're really playing 1000 HPH, then you're playing 2/3'rds more. In a time restricted promotion (say 4 hours), instead of playing 2400 hands you're playing 4000 hands. When calculating how much bankroll (session bankroll) you'll likely be needing, especially if the play has a decent amount of volatility, you'll end up calculating a number reflective of 2400 hands played, not 4000 hands played, which means the BR you'll bring to the play will be a fair amount smaller than what you really should be bringing.

Also, if you keep a record of your EV (for a time limited promotion) you will be under or over estimating your EV if you're not playing the HPH you thought you were. Thinking you had $2700 in EV but really only getting $1100 in EV....and coming out of the play at +$1300, you may write that down as being BELOW expectation, when in reality, you were ABOVE expectation. This can really f*** with you, if you're looking at your EV vs ACTUAL graph on your spreadsheet. You may think you're making playing mistakes or something like that, not even realizing that your HPH is the cause for you not getting to your EV.

IOW: Imagine if you play full pay deuces wild and you think you're doing 1000 HPH but you're really doing 600 HPH. Or a card counter who assumes 100 rounds per hour but he's really getting in 40 rounds per hour.


Being able to know how fast you can play is usually not a concern, at least in my experience, since stuff is usually not time sensitive, but sometimes it can definitely make a big difference.

Gosh, all the years I've been playing VP (total of 6 visits to Las Vegas in past 10 years), I've never considered the importance of HPH in the manner you've eloquently described.

Your reply is like someone presented me with the "Here's the Chapter you didn't read when learning how to play VP".

Well, now I have the ammunition to figure out my HPH, so I better get cracking on this before the VP Tournament!

Since I don't have access to use #3 (an actual VP machine), I'll make those calculations when we arrive on Apr 2 - just so I have an alternate HPH count to compare with whatever I calculate here.

There is a Play Perfect Video Poker Lite which is available as a free download, so I will try that if I can install it, or some other apps offering a HPH count.

Thanks for the explanations, suggestions, and your on-going interest!

LW

Quote: tringlomane

If you make a winning hand, the machine will begin to count your win. Hit the draw/deal button to skip that process to the end. Then hit the button again to begin the next hand.

OK! There should be a few valuable seconds (hands to play) I can get back if I use this technique!

LW

Quote: DRich

When I play in VP tournaments I start playing a strategy similar to optimal but I will weight a few RF hands higher than they would normally be. The key for me is constantly adjusting my strategy based on how well I am doing at different time intervals. If I believe my score is below expectation of the top 30% I will dynamically adjust strategy to be more aggressive and go for higher rewarding hands.

DRich,

Thanks for your tip. At least now I have a threshold to consider (if my score is < 30% of highest posted) for when I should increase my aggressiveness for higher rewarding hands (which I interpret as go for the RFs/4oak).

Quote: LostWages

Gosh, all the years I've been playing VP (total of 6 visits to Las Vegas in past 10 years), I've never considered the importance of HPH in the manner you've eloquently described.

Your reply is like someone presented me with the "Here's the Chapter you didn't read when learning how to play VP".

Well, now I have the ammunition to figure out my HPH, so I better get cracking on this before the VP Tournament!

Since I don't have access to use #3 (an actual VP machine), I'll make those calculations when we arrive on Apr 2 - just so I have an alternate HPH count to compare with whatever I calculate here.

There is a Play Perfect Video Poker Lite which is available as a free download, so I will try that if I can install it, or some other apps offering a HPH count.

Thanks for the explanations, suggestions, and your on-going interest!

LW

Some(most?) VP tournaments give you more than enough time to complete it, assuming you are not just sitting there.

IMO if you are playing a RF only strategy you are playing wrong, especially if its a double double or something like that.

Quote: beachbumbabs

LW,

1500 credits at 5 credits max bet per hand is 300 hands. (There are some machines that allow more than 5 credits max, but that's the standard on game kings). That's why tring said 900 HPH. 300 hands in 20 minutes.

That's a very fast pace imo. I still think you should do best strategy, though, just not dwell on hands.

BBB - on this single OP of mine, I must have uncovered at least a dozen tips and aspects of VP that I never even knew about (possibly read, but didn't understand).

The WoO Forum posters, and especially you, are really adept at unselfishly sharing suggestions, tips, and advice.

Now I perfectly understand Tring's 900 HPH. 1500 credits/5 credits (Max play) in 20 min = 300 hands in 20 min, or times 3 = 900 HPH. I wish all the math were that easy!

If I start with go for RF/4oak strategy, and after 10 min (half-way point) find myself < 30% of high score, I will revert to best strategy to catch up. At 15 min point, if I'm caught up to the high score, I'll revert to RF/4oak strategy to finish up my 20 min play!

------ With my on-going effort to learn card-counting (yeah, I read the 3 articles of Romes three times - more is good), the concept of watching the TC comes to mind. I'm learning one has to modify the betting to match the TC conditions. This will be great, once I can card-count. In my Oct 2016 trip, I tried to card-count, but got so nervous, I actually had difficulty adding the 5 cards in my hand! :-) Maybe the Apr trip will be better/smoother.

Below is the promised table showing the results of 15 simulations where I varied the number of participants of each type of player. Here I used the same Double Bonus as originally (the 98.81% 10-7-4 one):

# OPTIMAL players	# MTOP1 Players	% Tournament wins by OPTIMAL types
10	140	20.05%
20	130	26.63%
30	120	34.29%
40	110	40.06%
50	100	45.70%
60	90	51.58%
70	80	57.34%
75	75	60.40%
80	70	63.61%
90	60	68.57%
100	50	73.52%
110	40	79.30%
120	30	84.53%
130	20	89.59%
140	10	94.95%

One surprising take-away (to me) is that the percentage of wins by OPTIMAL players was linear (R-Squared of 0.998) in the number of OPTIMAL players over the range studied.

Quote: GaryJKoehler

Below is the promised table showing the results of 15 simulations where I varied the number of participants of each type of player. Here I used the same Double Bonus as originally (the 98.81% 10-7-4 one):

# OPTIMAL players	# MTOP1 Players	% Tournament wins by OPTIMAL types
10	140	20.05%
20	130	26.63%
30	120	34.29%
40	110	40.06%
50	100	45.70%
60	90	51.58%
70	80	57.34%
75	75	60.40%
80	70	63.61%
90	60	68.57%
100	50	73.52%
110	40	79.30%
120	30	84.53%
130	20	89.59%
140	10	94.95%

One surprising take-away (to me) is that the percentage of wins by OPTIMAL players was linear (R-Squared of 0.998) in the number of OPTIMAL players over the range studied.

Oh my! I don't know enough about simulations to make any argument about the table values, but the bottom line seems to be OPTIMAL players will win more often than not, whether it's a "speed" tournament to use up X amount of credits in Y minutes, or a tournament where you have to complete X number of hands in Y amount of time.

Did I get that right?

Hmmmm, now I wonder what Dancer, RS, or RSActuary might have to say, since their suggestion for this upcoming tournament (1500 credits in 20 min) was to go for speed (Dancer) or go for the RF/4oak (unless I have mis-read the threads).

Perhaps I forgot to make a clause stating I would play for speed if it was a timed tournament where you have X minutes to play as many hands as you can.

I don't really play VP or slot tournaments. But if I did, and it was X minutes to do as many hands as you can, I'd probably play a very aggressive RF strategy and also going for aces, but never throwing away a 3 of a kind. That's assuming a double / double double bonus game.

Plus, I think some tournaments require you to get at least X credits in payouts before you're even eligible to be "in the money".


With some practice, which you probably don't have access to, I heard people can get a 50% improvement on HPH if they're strictly playing for RFs.




FWIW, much of the HPH stuff isn't necessary for a non-professional player (IMO) nor most APs. I was just trying to explain there are times, IMO rare, when knowing your HPH definitely matters, at least for professional APs.


There is a lot of stuff in AP that simply cannot be taught or learned by someone else. The general broad information stuff can be learned or taught by someone. But the smallest tiniest details (that usually don't matter.....but every now and then can make a huge difference), could have books written about them.

Quote: LostWages

Oh my! I don't know enough about simulations to make any argument about the table values, but the bottom line seems to be OPTIMAL players will win more often than not, whether it's a "speed" tournament to use up X amount of credits in Y minutes, or a tournament where you have to complete X number of hands in Y amount of time.

Did I get that right?

In a balanced tournament (50% of each type), your statement is accurate. A more accurate statement would be that OPTIMAL players win more often than their percentage of players. For example, if there are only 30 OPTIMAL players in the 150 (i.e., 20%), then 34.29% of the time does an OPTIMAL player win.

The earlier studied showed that for Double Bonus, the go for RF/4oak was dominated by just go for RSF which in turn was dominated by the OPTIMAL play strategy. (With Double Double Bonus where 4 Aces plus a small kicker pays half of what a Royal pays, the go for RSF/4Aces dominates the go for RSF. Both strategies were dominated by the OPTIMAL play strategy.)

Quote: RS

Perhaps I forgot to make a clause stating I would play for speed if it was a timed tournament where you have X minutes to play as many hands as you can.

I don't really play VP or slot tournaments. But if I did, and it was X minutes to do as many hands as you can, I'd probably play a very aggressive RF strategy and also going for aces, but never throwing away a 3 of a kind. That's assuming a double / double double bonus game.

Plus, I think some tournaments require you to get at least X credits in payouts before you're even eligible to be "in the money".


With some practice, which you probably don't have access to, I heard people can get a 50% improvement on HPH if they're strictly playing for RFs.




FWIW, much of the HPH stuff isn't necessary for a non-professional player (IMO) nor most APs. I was just trying to explain there are times, IMO rare, when knowing your HPH definitely matters, at least for professional APs.


There is a lot of stuff in AP that simply cannot be taught or learned by someone else. The general broad information stuff can be learned or taught by someone. But the smallest tiniest details (that usually don't matter.....but every now and then can make a huge difference), could have books written about them.

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RS - Thanks for taking the time and patience to further clarify your views. I really appreciate that, as I'm definitely a tournament newbie.

I believe I'm developing a much better appreciation for the game, even if I don't currently plan to be an AP - I wouldn't have access to any casinos unless Trump does something to turnover Hawaii! He has 1 hotel here, but no legal gambling allowed in state of Hawaii!

Quote: AxelWolf

Some(most?) VP tournaments give you more than enough time to complete it, assuming you are not just sitting there.

IMO if you are playing a RF only strategy you are playing wrong, especially if its a double double or something like that.

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AW - Thanks for your post! Elsewhere in this OP, one poster recommended a modified strategy of RFs/4oak (to win) and basic strategy to catch up on points; another said they would be hard-pressed to throw away 3oak. Yet others say that 1500 credits in 20 min is like 300 hands/20 min or 900 HPH (assuming max credit play).

At any rate, I'm going primarily for the entertainment and 1st time VP Tournament experience! All the threads in this OP will help me develop a comfortable working strategy!

LW