OmegaGambler
• Posts: 7
Joined: Dec 19, 2016
December 19th, 2016 at 9:43:16 PM permalink
Hi

I am a new member and recently ave become interested in video poker.

:)

The resources at have been exceptional at explain variance and ev and also evaluating the ev using video poker calculators.

With basic maths to include comps and free games + your free calculators I now have a good idea of my expected losses.

The best machine have found is 99% at my local casino.

Thank you very much Mr Shackleford for this.

Especially for allowing me to enjoy my gambling experience without losing my house!!

However there is one game in particular that I can't seem to evaluate with the normal video poker calculators and my limited maths.

It is a video poker machine with the choice of two or even three draws before you play the hand, instead of one.

So obviously the calculations are more involved and the strategy would change

So my question is

1)What is the EV of
a) A double draw
b) A triple draw

2) What is the strategy for
a) A double draw
b) A triple draw

When using a single draw, this is the basic strategy ev table from

EV = 0.905609

The payoffs are below.

HAND PAYOFF
Natural Royal Flush 500
Five of a Kind 100
Wild Royal Flush 500
Straight Flush 50
Four of a Kind 25
Full House 5
Flush 4
Straight 3
Three of a Kind 2
Two Pair 1
Nothing 0

I hope this question is not to hard to answer.

Cheers Omega
RS
• Posts: 8626
Joined: Feb 11, 2014
December 19th, 2016 at 11:30:30 PM permalink
Strategy and EV is the same for a game whether you're playing 1 hand, 2 hands, 3 hands, or however many hands (assuming the same paytable, of course).
beachbumbabs
• Posts: 14268
Joined: May 21, 2013
December 20th, 2016 at 4:58:45 AM permalink
Quote: RS

Strategy and EV is the same for a game whether you're playing 1 hand, 2 hands, 3 hands, or however many hands (assuming the same paytable, of course).

I think he's saying he can re-draw to the same hand 2 or 3 times on this machine. I could be wrong.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
IndyJeffrey
• Posts: 441
Joined: Feb 10, 2013
December 20th, 2016 at 8:59:25 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

I think he's saying he can re-draw to the same hand 2 or 3 times on this machine. I could be wrong.

That's the way I read it. I would assume there would be a 'cost' to this, though. Extra coin in? Reduced pay table?

Also, if you hold three cards after deal, do you have to re-draw two cards each time, or can you hold another and re-draw the single?
OmegaGambler
• Posts: 7
Joined: Dec 19, 2016
December 20th, 2016 at 2:49:41 PM permalink
Hi Everyone,

Thanks so much for your prompt replies.

Here is my thought process, what I know and assumptions.

What I Know:

Before you play you can choose:
1 draw 2 draw 3 draw

Each draw costs a credit

IE 1 draw=1
2 draw=2
3 draw =3

Thought process:
Would strategy change given extra drawing phase/s
and therefore ev change???
Wouldn't you go for bigger hands given three draws?
Wouldn't extra draws have more ev than the first draw?

I don't know the maths on this,

Above my pay grade so to speak :( haha

Assumptions
52 card deck, once the cards are taken out, they are out

I will check this tonight when I go to casino though under the rules and by playing

Thanks again

Omega

*EDITED*

You can choose as many cards as you like each draw,from the 5 you get intially
I will also check, if you get paid if you win on the previous draws
Eg do you get paid on the first draw if you hit trips

I think you do but I will double check this tonight.
RS
• Posts: 8626
Joined: Feb 11, 2014
December 21st, 2016 at 4:35:02 AM permalink
What's the paytable look like if you bet max credits?

How many credits is max bet? 8? 15?

Not that I can really help. It's fairly complicated, especially since it's joker poker (regular JP is complicated enough). Although I do like the concept of the game, definitely would be fun, I imagine.
OmegaGambler
• Posts: 7
Joined: Dec 19, 2016
December 21st, 2016 at 5:16:44 AM permalink
Yeah it is fun but what the hell is the ev?!?!?

Min is 10 cents max is 100 cents

per hour normal video poker rates IDK depends how fast you are. etc etc ....

so you know, hourly rate is not going to be massive if you have positive ev

But it is about working it out!!!

It gets even more complicated.

The machine is a BEAST to work out ev

Very hard I am not even close.....

This is the rules of the game after going to the casino today:

There is a 52 card deck with one joker (not two),

You have a choice between 1, 2 or 3 draws.

The choice you make of the first draw is set, ie if you choose two cards you cannot change it on further draws

Once a card is drawn the cards you keep cannot be drawn.

But I Don't know if cards on previous draws, the ones you have not kept are discarded

need to check this...

The pay-table is modified especially noticeable is a Royal straight, ie AKJQ10

Full house, flush and straight get 5 free games, with a multiplier

More Free games can be won on free games play

On free games there is a multiplier card drawn at random each time

The winnings on free games are multiplied by 25 for joker 10 for AQKJ and each number by its face value

eg 5 drawn = 5 multiplier

Comps are .2% equivalent, so negligible

Below is the pay-table

Royal Flush 500
Five of a Kind 120
Straight Flush 40
Four of a Kind 12
ROYAL STRAIGHT 8
Full house 4
Flush 3
Straight 2
three of a kind 1
two pair 1
Nothing 0

Wow very hard to work this one out.

Anyone know how to work out ev or basic strategy.

Sorry if this is too hard

Cheers

Omega
GaryJKoehler
• Posts: 200
Joined: Oct 22, 2015
Thanked by
December 23rd, 2016 at 10:12:32 AM permalink
Just trying to follow this. Is this like "Movin' On Up Poker" the Wiz analyzed:

https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/tables/movin-on-up/
OmegaGambler
• Posts: 7
Joined: Dec 19, 2016
December 23rd, 2016 at 7:03:36 PM permalink
A quote from the man himself sums it up

Quote:

What analyzing this game would be to computer programming is what climbing Mount Everest would be to a mountain climber. So, I took the lazy way out and asked IGT for their pay tables and returns.

Looks like I am stuffed then pretty much....

Oh well seems like this question really is too hard.

Especially for a mere mortal like myself ...
GaryJKoehler
• Posts: 200
Joined: Oct 22, 2015
December 24th, 2016 at 4:19:51 AM permalink
So, is this a correct summary?

1, 2 or 3 draws but redraws can't discard previously held cards. Q: Are discarded cards in the redraw deck?
Free games and multipliers based on outcomes.
Multipliers are a function of the number of cards held and are invoked when a multiplier card randomly appears (not sure what this latter part means)..
Unusual pay table (e.g., the royal straight). Q: Do pay tables remain constant across draws?

Definitely a beast.
OmegaGambler
• Posts: 7
Joined: Dec 19, 2016
December 24th, 2016 at 5:05:40 AM permalink
ok so free games are invoked when you get full house flush or straight

During free games payoff are multiplied by a random card,

Yes paytable remains the same across draws

But you cannot change the cards you choose to keep on the first draw.

Royal straight is AQKJ10 only, never seen that one on other machines

I ran it through standard joker poker, one draw and comes in at .6 ev

Then adjusted for bonus given the frequencies using basic strategy of the bonus hands(full house, flush, straight).

Assumed the multiplier is random drawn from deck and multiplied that through....

coming to .88 ev

I added royal straight frequency*Extra payoff given how many times that would occur adds another .02, but this may be wrong

However....

Does joker poker normally have one or two jokers???

I can't believe I don't know this :(

I need a calculator with one joker in the deck for one draw and also adjust for royal straight, then the ev I worked out would be really close.

But for more than one draw it depends on discarded cards.

I don't think discarded cards are in the redraw deck. But I have to check when I go next week.

If they are not then ev is really hard to work out.

If they are in the redraw then extra draw would not have any impact on ev.

I want to work out one draw first, just for curiosity and a start.

You could also do that for straights royal aspect but some of the plays would not be correct

So that might not be a correct way to evaluate it.

How this makes more sense.

I hope I am getting closer

Also royal flush is not distinguished between wild and non wild on this pay-table.

Another weird aspect

I just remembered.

The bonus is only if you draw the hand first, no after you have discarded, I adjusted for this in my calculation by using frequencies in 5 stud joker poker, from wizard of odds site. Not the frequency after redrawing given by the calculator.

Because of this you cannot change your strategy to get the bonus, it is just drawn straight up.
Last edited by: OmegaGambler on Dec 24, 2016
OmegaGambler
• Posts: 7
Joined: Dec 19, 2016
December 24th, 2016 at 6:18:33 AM permalink
Okay so here we go for one draw :

Prepare yourself!!

Given normal joker poker, two pair these are the payoffs.

/games/video-poker/strategy/a-1-b-81-c-1-d-0-d-1-d-1-d-2-d-3-d-4-d-12-d-40-d-500-d-120-d-500/

EV= .6067...

Probability of either Full house flush or straight given one wild joker.

/games/poker/

Look at the wild table

With no drawing, only straight up what you are given, ie the hand you get before draw.

0.002283 full house
0.002719 flush
0.007155 straight

multiply each by 5 games

then multiply by ev of each game .60...

then by the muliplier

the multiplier is the probability of each card in the 53 deck multiplied by payoff summed to get ev

eg joker multiplier is 1/53 joker *25 payoff = .47... etc etc

this comes too 7.64....

so the total extra ev is .28....

now if you could agrue free games can be won on free games, but the chances of this are minimal.

eg full house would be .00238*.00238 per hand which is too insignificant, even with 5 hands..

0.888572934

Here is the wrong part to adjust for royal straight

Now if you want to approximately adjust for royal straight you could say this is 10% of straights.

which brings the payoff to 2+(8*.1)=2.8

wrong I know but just to try it

/games/video-poker/strategy/a-1-b-81-c-1-d-0-d-1-d-1-d-2.8-d-3-d-4-d-12-d-40-d-500-d-120-d-500/

Now ev is

0.627045

add the bonus which is now bigger because of higher ev, each bonus you get ev of winning as well as multiplier if that makes sense.

0.2912556

so .9183

of course some plays I am going for royal straight, as payoff is 8, so the strategy would be different.

but even then I don't think this is a positive ev machine unless the draw factor comes into play.

There we go

approximate ev for a one draw bonus game

Not perfect but pretty good.

I hope????

haha

No to investigate for multiple draws

cheers
GaryJKoehler
• Posts: 200
Joined: Oct 22, 2015
December 24th, 2016 at 9:29:31 AM permalink
Quote: OmegaGambler

Here is the wrong part to adjust for royal straight

Adjusted some of my code and computed the EV for the Joker Poker payouts, including the Royal Straight. Got: 0.63260265782632 (assuming this is a one Joker game).

By the way, what is this game called?
OmegaGambler
• Posts: 7
Joined: Dec 19, 2016
December 24th, 2016 at 7:06:59 PM permalink
Thanks a lot for helping

yes is one joker

Now for bonus comes in at

0.293837071

adjusting comes in at 0.926439729 ev

with a single draw

I don't know the name will check this...

I will also check if the drawing feature discards the cards or redraws from the same pool.

It is pretty ancient I think

Hey this is nothing

There are more machines with these unusual bonus features.....

10 free games, hit before draw on certain hands , a lot of fun to calculate these :))

One jackpot machine the royal flush style, used to be two machines

which can give you positive ev when jackpot is big enough.

but need to max bet which is a couple of dollars.

Joker and deuces .99 ev is the next best thing

Its all fun and games

Now how to evaluate extra draws is the next question once I have checked the machine

Thanks Gary,

Merry Christmas