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tringlomane
tringlomane
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June 16th, 2016 at 12:08:58 PM permalink
DW 25-16-13-4-3 is 96.77%, fyi, not 97.09%.

And this thread reminds me of a post I made in another forum.
http://www.vegasmessageboard.com/forums/index.php?posts/1020345/

Quote: tringlomane

I don't have them all memorized either. I have JoB nearly down cold, and Bonus is nearly identical to that (one change I can think of offhand: break Aces full at 6/5 Bonus only). After that I have the major changes that apply to DDB, Triple Bonus Plus, or Bonus Poker Deluxe familiarized. Note: The list below is NOT exhaustive.

Major deviations from Jacks or Better/Bonus Poker strategy:

-----------------------------------------------

Double Double Bonus/Triple Bonus Plus:

Straight/flush draw changes:
Inside straight draw better than garbage
Inside straight draw with 2 high cards better than two offsuit high cards. (e.g. QJT8 is better than QJ offsuit)

If flush is 6 for 1, 3 to Royal is better than 4 to flush UNLESS Royal draw has Ace AND Ten in it
KQJ suited and QJT suited is better than KK, QQ, JJ (except when DDB flush pays 5 for 1)

Ace high changes:
Ace only better than AH offsuit or KH offsuit (H=high card)...you still hold QJ offsuit vs. Ace
Break two pair with Aces
Break Aces full
***7/5 TB+ and 7/5 DDB only: Break Aces, 2s, 3s, 4s full
*** TB+ only: Outside 4 to a Straight Flush is better than a dealt straight or flush

-----------------------------------------------

Bonus Deluxe:
See Straight/Flush draw rules for DDB/TB+
EXCEPT
High pairs are ALWAYS better than 3 to a Royal

Offsuit high cards follow JoB.

-----------------------------------------------

And I would avoid this last game unless it's clearly the best option (it usually isn't on the strip, thank god)...but for completeness (if anyone notices a big omission of a strategy change, lmk, this isn't really my game of choice).

-----------------------------------------------

Double Bonus:

Follow ALL of DDB/TB+ straight/flush strategy plus...

IF flush is 7 for 1:
4 to a flush is ALWAYS better than 3 to a Royal
3 to a flush is better than garbage
3 to a flush with a high card is better than high card only
3 to a flush with 2 high cards is better than 2 to a Royal

If flush is 6 or 7 for 1, KQJ suited and QJT suited is better than KK, QQ, JJ

If the straight draw is 5 for 1 (you shouldn't be playing the game otherwise):
Outside straight draws are better than low pairs.
Inside straight draws with one or more high cards is better than 2 offsuit high cards. (e.g A345Q hold A345 vs. AQ offsuit)
QJT offsuit is better than QJ offsuit

Offsuit high cards follow JoB.

Break Aces full.

When the full house is 9 for 1:
Break Two Pair with Aces.

When the full house is 10 for 1 (never at a bar):
Always hold 2 pair.

--------------------------------------------------------------

If you use 9/6 JoB strategy and insist on not changing anything, it costs you:

0.60% at 7/5 Triple Bonus Plus.
0.54% at 9/5 DDB
0.63% at 9/7 DB

vs.

0.034% at 8/6 Bonus Deluxe
0.008% at 6/5 Bonus

But I think my tweaks cover a lot major things that cost you equity between the different variants. I would assume my suggestions would get you close to 0.1% error at DDB and TB+ at least.

Deuces, of course, is a completely different strategy that has to be familiarized. Playing JoB strategy on this game is just asking to throw your money away.

JB
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JB
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June 16th, 2016 at 1:54:25 PM permalink
As I recall it, the friendly 'dispute' was over which game's strategy would perform better on 10/7 DB: Wizard thought 9/6 Jacks strategy was superior whereas I thought the strategy for full-pay All American would be better.

In my defense, the AA paytable is more like DB than JOB because:
- AA and DB both pay 1-for-1 for two pair
- Straight and Flush payouts are increased in both AA and DB (you play for them with similar aggression in each game)
- Quad payouts are also increased in AA and DB

Knowing this, it seemed like a good bet. But the numbers indicate that 9/6 Jacks or Better strategy is indeed better on 10/7 DB than 40/8 All American strategy, so I lost the bet.

For academic purposes:
9/6 JOB strategy on 10/7 DB returns 99.6320%
40/8 AA strategy on 10/7 DB returns 99.4941%

In retrospect, the reason I was wrong is probably because of the 2-to-a-straight-flush plays that are made in AA but not in DB. I would not make those kinds of plays in DB, so I wasn't exactly considering them when I suggested that AA strategy might be better than JOB strategy.
Wizard
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Wizard 
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June 16th, 2016 at 2:08:28 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

DW 25-16-13-4-3 is 96.77%, fyi, not 97.09%.



You're right. Thanks for the correction. My figure was for when a royal pays 940. My tables have been updated.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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June 17th, 2016 at 12:02:05 AM permalink
Quote: TwoFeathersATL

It might be time to buy a machine, ask 'Joe' to play on your machine. Promise free booze and Joe can crash on the couch ;-) If you can whip up some semblance of a buffet, that is a good idea as well....

Trust me if that was legal I would. I'd have the first mobile casino /party bus in Vegas. The hell with food trucks, casino trucks would be all the rage. Park that baby at a bougie old folks home.

Hello Martha, here's your favorite 6/5 VP machine. Would Mittens like a can of fancy feast this evening while you play?

PS. I would allow Bob and his doggie to play no limit single zero roulette.
Last edited by: AxelWolf on Jun 17, 2016
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
teddys
teddys
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June 17th, 2016 at 7:52:09 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Trust me if that was legal I would. I'd have the first mobile casino /party bus in Vegas. The hell with food trucks, casino trucks would be all the rage. Park that baby at a bougie old folks home.

Hello Martha, here's your favorite 6/5 VP machine. Would Mittens like a can of fancy feast this evening while you play?

PS. I would allow Bob and his doggie to play no limit single zero roulette.

"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
Wizard
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Wizard 
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August 9th, 2016 at 4:10:43 PM permalink
I have updated my tables to allow for holding good kickers to a four of a kind when playing a Jacks or Better, Bonus Poker, or Double Bonus strategy in Double Double Bonus.

Here is the return table by game (left column) by strategy (top row):

Game Optimal 9/6 Jacks 9/6 DDB 8/5 BP 10/7 DB
9/6 JoB 99.54% 99.54% 98.51% 99.54% 98.94%
9/5 JoB 98.45% 98.44% 97.38% 98.45% 97.44%
8/6 JoB 98.39% 98.39% 97.43% 98.39% 97.82%
8/5 BP 99.17% 99.16% 98.37% 99.17% 98.20%
7/5 BP 98.07% 98.01% 97.29% 98.01% 97.08%
10/6 DDB 100.07% 99.76% 100.07% 99.76% 99.57%
9/6 DDB 98.98% 98.61% 98.98% 98.61% 98.45%
9/5 DDB 97.87% 97.51% 97.84% 97.52% 96.96%
8/5 DDB 96.79% 96.36% 96.76% 96.37% 95.84%
10/7/5 DB 100.17% 99.63% 99.86% 99.61% 100.17%
9/7/5 DB 99.11% 98.48% 98.77% 98.46% 99.05%
9/6/5 DB 97.81% 97.38% 97.63% 97.37% 97.56%
9/6 BPD 99.64% 99.61% 99.37% 99.60% 99.29%
9/7 TDB 99.58% 97.71% 98.49% 97.69% 98.24%
9/5 WHA 99.57% 99.16% 99.54% 99.16% 98.59%


Here is the cost to mistakes.

Game 9/6 Jacks 9/6 DDB 8/5 BP 10/7 DB
9/6 JoB 0.00% 1.03% 0.01% 0.61%
9/5 JoB 0.01% 1.07% 0.00% 1.01%
8/6 JoB 0.00% 0.97% 0.01% 0.57%
8/5 BP 0.01% 0.79% 0.00% 0.96%
7/5 BP 0.06% 0.78% 0.05% 0.99%
10/6 DDB 0.30% 0.00% 0.31% 0.50%
9/6 DDB 0.37% 0.00% 0.37% 0.53%
9/5 DDB 0.36% 0.03% 0.35% 0.92%
8/5 DDB 0.43% 0.03% 0.42% 0.95%
10/7/5 DB 0.54% 0.32% 0.56% 0.00%
9/7/5 DB 0.63% 0.34% 0.65% 0.05%
9/6/5 DB 0.43% 0.17% 0.43% 0.25%
9/6 BPD 0.03% 0.28% 0.04% 0.35%
9/7 TDB 1.86% 1.09% 1.88% 1.34%
9/5 WHA 0.41% 0.03% 0.41% 0.98%
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Ayecarumba
Ayecarumba
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August 9th, 2016 at 5:59:55 PM permalink
Wow. If you are going to play Triple Double Bonus, you had better get the right strategy card!
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
Wizard
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Wizard 
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August 9th, 2016 at 7:08:25 PM permalink
I finally wrote up a proper page on this topic: Effect of Strategy Mismatches in Video Poker.

As always, I welcome questions, comments, and especially corrections.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Joeshlabotnik
Joeshlabotnik
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August 9th, 2016 at 7:36:26 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I finally wrote up a proper page on this topic: Effect of Strategy Mismatches in Video Poker.

As always, I welcome questions, comments, and especially corrections.



The page doesn't discuss this, but I was wondering: the biggest possible strategy booboo listed on the table earlier in this thread is playing 9/7 TDB with 9/6 JOB strategy. I was wondering which specific errors cost the most in that game. I was at first thinking of stuff like not keeping AAA3 from AAA39, but then I realized that that hand doesn't come up often enough to have that (-2%) effect. Is it more mundane stuff like not keeping the A alone and playing AJ offsuit and so forth?

Parenthetically, I was wondering if the reason why 9/7 TDB isn't very popular was the fact that you do get absolutely crushed if you don't play the proper strategy (as opposed to, say, JOB, where only a really stupid mistake costs all that much). I used to think it was the insane volatility, but given that people lap up DDB and various multiplier games, high volatility seems to be an encouragement, not a deterrent.
Wizard
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Wizard 
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August 9th, 2016 at 8:11:46 PM permalink
I haven't taken the time to look at which are the plays that cost the most. Hopefully somebody else will provide a better answer.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.

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