MathExtremist
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
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October 23rd, 2015 at 3:05:23 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

Indian casinos in Alabama have VP masked as electronic bingo as they don't have a class III compact with the state.

I think those are in Oklahoma too, and I apologize, I should have been clearer. Class II games don't exist outside the United States (or at least, they shouldn't) because they're a specific reaction to the section in IGRA that allows Native American tribes to offer electronic bingo games without a compact. Vis-a-vis the question about Canada, I was specifically referring to electronic pull-tab (finite pool) central determinant games. Those too were started by tribal gaming efforts but unlike the bingo-based versions, electronic pull-tab games are Class III (according to the District Court and upheld by the US Court of Appeals: "Without any doubt, the video pull-tab games clearly are facsimiles of games of chance and therefore are class III gaming.", see Cabazon v. NIGC, 827 F. Supp. 26 and 14 F.3d 633).

On the other hand, the video pull-tab version of Video Poker has been offered in at least the two jurisdictions I mentioned above. If the non-IGT West Virginia games operate that way, that's news to me. Can someone confirm?

Edit: Let me amend because I looked into this a few years back. The West Virginia code authorizing their "Limited Video Lottery" requires an RNG in each machine:
http://law.justia.com/codes/west-virginia/2012/chapter29/article22b/29-22b-909

So I'd be very surprised if the non-IGT games in West Virginia worked the same way as the VP games in Washington or New York.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
waasnoday
waasnoday
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October 23rd, 2015 at 4:17:09 PM permalink
Wow ME nice commentary about IGRA and the class II and class III gaming classification. I don't think I have seen many postings that are that accurate when it comes to IGRA and game classification. Very nice to see and thank you for being accurate.

tringlomane, you are definitely correct stating that Alabama offers only class II gaming but I think it would be more accurate to say that they offer bingo masked as VP. The programing behind the class II games is strictly bingo based and VP is definitely not. I am pretty sure the strategy used for VP would not work on the bingo games. I may be wrong on that but I know the player is limited in what decisions can be made on the bingo machines compared to what they can do on VP machines.

Edit: should have looked at MEs post regarding game play earlier in this thread, he already pointed out the difference between bingo and VP. My apologies.
boymimbo
boymimbo
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October 23rd, 2015 at 4:32:02 PM permalink
Quote: waasnoday

Wow ME nice commentary about IGRA and the class II and class III gaming classification. I don't think I have seen many postings that are that accurate when it comes to IGRA and game classification. Very nice to see and thank you for being accurate.

tringlomane, you are definitely correct stating that Alabama offers only class II gaming but I think it would be more accurate to say that they offer bingo masked as VP. The programing behind the class II games is strictly bingo based and VP is definitely not. I am pretty sure the strategy used for VP would not work on the bingo games. I may be wrong on that but I know the player is limited in what decisions can be made on the bingo machines compared to what they can do on VP machines.

Edit: should have looked at MEs post regarding game play earlier in this thread, he already pointed out the difference between bingo and VP. My apologies.



I've played in BC, AB, ON, and QC. All VP is real.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
waasnoday
waasnoday
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October 23rd, 2015 at 4:39:49 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

I've played in BC, AB, ON, and QC. All VP is real.



Figured it would be that way in Canada. The class II bingo games as far as I know are only offered in the US by various tribal casinos and even some non-native casinos (Victory Land in Alabama?).
Mission146
Mission146
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October 23rd, 2015 at 5:31:35 PM permalink
Quote: sabre

I know wheeling island in WV has both vlts and standard vp. The real vp is by well known manufacturers such as igt and have horrid paytables. The vlts are by manufacturers I've never seen before and have attractive paytables. If I recall, WV prohibits machines with payouts over 95%.



They do not have Class II games at WI. Further, the Game Kings to which you refer (bartops) also have games that pay well over 95%. The Spielo machines to which you refer are not Class II machines, they're just not common.

I agree that the statute says 95%, but I don't think it is enforced. To wit, one WV casino has UX, and there is no UX game in existence that pays less than 95%. In fact, that statute may just apply to the parlors.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
tringlomane
tringlomane
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October 23rd, 2015 at 6:58:44 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

They do not have Class II games at WI. Further, the Game Kings to which you refer (bartops) also have games that pay well over 95%. The Spielo machines to which you refer are not Class II machines, they're just not common.

I agree that the statute says 95%, but I don't think it is enforced. To wit, one WV casino has UX, and there is no UX game in existence that pays less than 95%. In fact, that statute may just apply to the parlors.



Apparently Greenbrier is allowed to have slots/VP ranging from 80-99%.

Page 17, middle of left hand column.

http://www.wvlottery.com/assets/pdf/rules-regs/statutes/GreenbrierCasinoAct.pdf
ahiromu
ahiromu
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October 23rd, 2015 at 7:15:54 PM permalink
Quote: sabre

I know wheeling island in WV has both vlts and standard vp. The real vp is by well known manufacturers such as igt and have horrid paytables. The vlts are by manufacturers I've never seen before and have attractive paytables. If I recall, WV prohibits machines with payouts over 95%.



Charles Town, WV:

Iirc there is a bank of 4-6 VP machines that have extremely bad pay tables, like McCarran bad (6-5). These machines were swamped with keno people, multi-game machines. I do not remember finding any of the vlt types (good pay tables).
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
teddys
teddys
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October 23rd, 2015 at 7:42:05 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

(according to the District Court and upheld by the US Court of Appeals: "Without any doubt, the video pull-tab games clearly are facsimiles of games of chance and therefore are class III gaming.", see Cabazon v. NIGA, 827 F. Supp. 26 and 14 F. 3d 633).

ME please don't put a space between F.3d when citing your district court cases. Minus 2 points and complete exercises 7-10 in your Bluebook by Tuesday pls
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
Wonko33
Wonko33
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October 23rd, 2015 at 9:49:23 PM permalink
Thx for the responses , I guess I am a bit paranoid about those since in live in Washington state :)
So Wizard, still no basic strategy for strip poker huh?
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
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October 23rd, 2015 at 9:57:45 PM permalink
Quote: teddys

ME please don't put a space between F.3d when citing your district court cases. Minus 2 points and complete exercises 7-10 in your Bluebook by Tuesday pls

I'm terrible at citations, I always have to get real attorneys to do them for me. I'll take the demerits as long as I get to skip the test on the definition of "abstract" w.r.t. 35 USC 101 in view of Alice v CLS Bank. :|

(Fixed, and also corrected re: NIGC vs NIGA, which is the trade association.)
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563

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