JOB Optimal Strategy wtf?
Quote: Exception A4 to a flush beats 3 to a royal if royal includes a ten and ace, and the unsuited card is a 10 or straight penalty card. Knowing this exception will add 0.00000021 to the game return.
What's wrong with throwing away the unsuited ten? It's not a straight penalty since you're already holding a ten for the RF. If anything, it just acts like a regular low-pair. Are a pair of Tens somehow better than a pair of 9's or 6's?
Quote: RShttps://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/strategy/jacks-or-better/9-6/optimal/
Quote: Exception A4 to a flush beats 3 to a royal if royal includes a ten and ace, and the unsuited card is a 10 or straight penalty card. Knowing this exception will add 0.00000021 to the game return.
What's wrong with throwing away the unsuited ten? It's not a straight penalty since you're already holding a ten for the RF. If anything, it just acts like a regular low-pair. Are a pair of Tens somehow better than a pair of 9's or 6's?
What's wrong is that you're throwing away a card that could help make a secondary winning hand of 3 tens (or two tens along with another pair). This lessens the value of holding this 3-card Royal (which is the weakest 3-card Royal you can hold) enough that the four flush has a higher EV.
Quote: GreasyjohnQuote: RShttps://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/strategy/jacks-or-better/9-6/optimal/
Quote: Exception A4 to a flush beats 3 to a royal if royal includes a ten and ace, and the unsuited card is a 10 or straight penalty card. Knowing this exception will add 0.00000021 to the game return.
What's wrong with throwing away the unsuited ten? It's not a straight penalty since you're already holding a ten for the RF. If anything, it just acts like a regular low-pair. Are a pair of Tens somehow better than a pair of 9's or 6's?
What's wrong is that you're throwing away a card that could make a secondary winning hand of 3 tens (or two tens along with another pair). This lessens the value of holding this 3-card Royal (which is the weakest 3-card Royal you can hold) enough that the four flush has a higher EV.
What about a hand like: 88TJA where the first 8 is off suit? Isn't that the same thing as 8TTJA where the T is off suit?
With 88, we go for the royal. But with TT we go for a flush?
Quote: RSQuote: GreasyjohnQuote: RShttps://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/strategy/jacks-or-better/9-6/optimal/
Quote: Exception A4 to a flush beats 3 to a royal if royal includes a ten and ace, and the unsuited card is a 10 or straight penalty card. Knowing this exception will add 0.00000021 to the game return.
What's wrong with throwing away the unsuited ten? It's not a straight penalty since you're already holding a ten for the RF. If anything, it just acts like a regular low-pair. Are a pair of Tens somehow better than a pair of 9's or 6's?
What's wrong is that you're throwing away a card that could make a secondary winning hand of 3 tens (or two tens along with another pair). This lessens the value of holding this 3-card Royal (which is the weakest 3-card Royal you can hold) enough that the four flush has a higher EV.
What about a hand like: 88TJA where the first 8 is off suit? Isn't that the same thing as 8TTJA where the T is off suit?
With 88, we go for the royal. But with TT we go for a flush?
If you throw away 8,8 as you're supposed to do you don't inhibit ANY possibilities of secondary winning hands when holding this three card Royal. If you have to throw away a 10 you do inhibit the possibilities of holding the 3 card Royal. (The Royal is not harder to convert, but the secondary winning hands are harder to make that would include a pair of 10s along with another pair or trip 10s.)
WHOOPS!
Fortunately by the time my ex-fiancee asked me that exact question I relearned that 3 to a Royal was generally better than 4 to a Flush. That gained her a Royal at quarters 9 years ago. Still waiting on my first quarter Royal...meh
Example FPDW (A ♣ K♣ 2♣ 8♠ 9 ♦) (A♥ K♥ 2♥ 4♦ 3♠)
Back when VP Tutor was the best program and very hard to get a hold of, others were really horrible and incorrect . I had to make my own strategies from scratch (no websites and strategy generators I knew of to help) I was new to VP and puzzled why( I'm sure mathies went puzzled) 2 hands that seemed the same were different holds with no penalties. After that I had to go back and check everything. If your new and want to learn a strategy well, Make it yourself.
There another thread somewhere that discusses situations like this. I think JB put up some interesting stuff having people guess what 4 of a kind comes up most and why.
Definitely fun and interesting if you like VP. This thread should be merged with that one.
Quote: AxelWolfTrng, it's the reverse penalty cards(thats what we used to call it) that are really worthless but fun. Most people get them wrong and don't realize there's a difference or why.
Example FPDW (A ¢À K¢À 2¢À 8¢¼ 9 ♦) (A¢¾ K¢¾ 2¢¾ 4♦ 3¢¼)
Back when VP Tutor was the best program and very hard to get a hold of, others were really horrible and incorrect . I had to make my own strategies from scratch (no websites and strategy generators I knew of to help) I was new to VP and puzzled why( I'm sure mathies went puzzled) 2 hands that seemed the same were different holds with no penalties. After that I had to go back and check everything. If your new and want to learn a strategy well, Make it yourself.
There another thread somewhere that discusses situations like this. I think JB put up some interesting stuff having people guess what 4 of a kind comes up most and why.
Definitely fun and interesting if you like VP. This thread should be merged with that one.
We don't have the capability to merge threads. Perhaps you could bring forward the link for the thread you're thinking of?
Quote: AxelWolf
Example FPDW (A ♣ K♣ 2♣ 8♠ 9 ♦) (A♥ K♥ 2♥ 4♦ 3♠)
In both examples I would think you'd definetly hold the 3 card wild Royal. If that's not so, what would you hold, why, and what's the difference in EV? Or did I miss something?
Actually I believe you are better off (for simplicity )never holding A K deuce over the lone deuce.Quote: GreasyjohnIn both examples I would think you'd definetly hold the 3 card wild Royal. If that's not so, what would you hold, why, and what's the difference in EV? Or did I miss something?
I'm sure someone can explain it better in writing than I can and add more. This is what makes sense to me....
The hand with the 8 9, you hold the 3 card WR because of the deck composition, 8 9 is helpful for making a str8. Since you now know they are gone from the deck you revert the 3 card WR. 5 coins 3 card WR 5. 28 VS lone deuce 5.18 .
The hand with 4 3 makes just holding the deuce better, knowing that 2 of the worst straight cards are gone. lone deuce ER 5 coins 5.28 VS 3 Card WR 5.23 .
Quote: RSOh, I think I got it. So basically because if you dump that extra T, it is slightly that much more harder to get 3-of-a-kind Tens when drawing 3 to RF?
Yes, or an even more likely event, drawing one of the remaining two 10s and pairing one of your Royal cards for two pair.
Quote: AxelWolfActually I believe you are better off (for simplicity )never holding A K deuce over the lone deuce.
I'm sure someone can explain it better in writing than I can and add more. This is what makes sense to me....
The hand with the 8 9, you hold the 3 card WR because of the deck composition, 8 9 is helpful for making a str8. Since you now know they are gone from the deck you revert the 3 card WR. 5 coins 3 card WR 5. 28 VS lone deuce 5.18 .
The hand with 4 3 makes just holding the deuce better, knowing that 2 of the worst straight cards are gone. lone deuce ER 5 coins 5.28 VS 3 Card WR 5.23 .
Thanks, AW. I looked at my WoO strategy and saw there were exceptions but didn't know what they were. Makes sense.
Quote: AxelWolfActually I believe you are better off (for simplicity )never holding A K deuce over the lone deuce.
I had the same questions about these reverse penalty cards today for FPDW, although after analyzing playing the hand wrong either way, I think unless you only guessed right 50% of the time the better play would be to go for it.
For example, if you hold 3 to a royal ace high with W'AH'34 when you should have held the deuce only, it costs 0.054 coins. If you hold the deuce only with W'AH'78 when you should have held 3 to a royal ace high, it also costs 0.054 coins.
If you always hold the deuce, assuming an even distribution then say 5/10 of those plays were errors so 5 correct plays would cancel out 5 errors. The sum total of those errors cost you 0.27 coins though.
If you know generally to only keep the deuce if you see a 3 or 4 in there, or some other system where you see 2 cards between 3-7 and one of them is a 3 or 4, but otherwise you're ok in the absence of penalty cards, then maybe you'll only make 2/10 errors. Maybe 1/10 or less. In a case like this, with only 10 plays, you're saving up to 0.27 coins.
Not a big deal either way, but depending on the denom, it might be to the player. I wouldn't really care if I was playing nickels or quarters, but if I was playing for $1 or $5 (yeah I know FPDW doesn't exist anymore in those denoms in Vegas, but never know) then I probably would care personally.
Quote: AxelWolfIf you have to pause to look for the penalty card it's not worth it, however if you notice it quickly they are worth learning and playing correctl.
Hmm...so would it be a higher EV to learn strategy play at a high rate of speed, say 700-800 hands per hour, vs. perfect play at 600 hands per hour?
Edit: Nevermind, I ran a few different numbers of 100.71% vs. 100.76% with the former at 650, 700 and 800 hands per hour vs 100.76% at 600 hands per hour. Wow speed of play makes a huge difference...didn't know perfection was going to cost me more money in the long run than getting really fast with a simple strategy.
2nd Edit: Thought this was worth sharing some hard numbers on optimal strategy vs. speed of play. I just tested myself on speed vs. strategy and perfect. I'm sure a sizable amount of coffee had something to do with my brain working this fast, and its unlikely you could keep this speed up for hours on end, but still it gives you an idea of the correlation between strategy/perfect and speed. Very small sample size, so not definitive by any means, but makes me wonder all the same which is better. Either way you'll have to pause for a second or two to scan the hand and possible plays anyway.
100% accuracy (no errors)
1120 hands/hr
6 hours
6720 hands
0.05 denom x 5 coins
1680 coin in
100.71% strategy
$1,691.928 coin in multiplied by strategy
$11.928 profit
100% accuracy (no errors)
1078 hands/hr
6 hours
6468 hands
0.05 denom x 5
1617 coin in
100.76% perfect
$1629.289 coin in multiplied by perfect
$12.289 profit
