Aces and Faces VS. Bonus Poker

Earlier this year I started playing 8/5 aces and faces at Rincon in order to take advantage of tier bonuses. However they have recently removed nearly all of these full pay games at the lower levels and replaced them with a pay table that pays 1 unit for 2 pair. Due to this I am now looking for the next best game to play. Would 8/5 bonus poker be the next best game to play in terms of lowest variance and highest return?

Assuming the 2 pair pays 2 for 1 on regular 8/5 Bonus, yes. Aces and Faces only adds 0.09% to the 8/5 Bonus game. And now thinking about it, 8/5 Bonus definitely will exist at quarters or 50c since teddys verified that they still have 8/5 Bonus with Double Super Times Pay earlier this month (which is an optional wager). Those machines are multiline, but it's your choice on how many lines to play with the touchscreen. 8/5 Bonus with Double STP is the best game they offer in the casino (99.67%); however, it is quite swingy with a variance worse than DDB. I would probably just play regular 8/5 Bonus if you are looking to keep your variance low unless you were playing dollars, then i might consider the Double STP games with 3-play for quarters. But the variance would definitely go up.

But if you were playing dollars, a lower variance option would be the 3 play quarters without the Double STP bet.

There are still 8/5 Aces and Faces games even at 25-cents. Look in the back of the new video poker area, near the restrooms that were recently opened. There is a kiosk of older Game King uprights. There are also a couple of older Game King uprights also in the other part of the video poker area with 25-cent 8/5 Aces and Faces and you can play these up to $2 per coin. Some of the Bonus games on these same machines are either 8/7 or 7/5 so look carefully.

In the high limit room all of the Aces and Faces are $5 8/5. There is one slant top Game King that still has 8/5 Aces and Faces starting at $1 going up to $5.

Otherwise, you are correct. The new Game Kings have lousy pay tables not only for Aces and Faces but also for Bonus.

By the way, my favorite machine #3116 is still on the casino floor -- in that grouping of old upright Game Kings. It's my favorite because it has the mix of games I like with the good paytables still intact. No, there is no superstitious reason for liking it -- it's just that it has the games.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Otherwise, you are correct. The new Game Kings have lousy pay tables not only for Aces and Faces but also for Bonus.

This was the case in Tunica as well. The new game kings outside high limit were pretty bad. The best they offered was 9/6 DDB or 9/7 DB at $1+. :( Going to Tunica this weekend to see if the few old units left are still there.

Thank you all for your helpful responses thus far. Alan, I understand that there are still a few of them left in the new area but last night when I was there it was very busy. I checked every machine not being played and could not find it on any of them. When I came back a few hours later it had cleared out quite a bit and I was able to find it on a machine. My interest in asking about bonus poker is because I noticed that it is on many more machines and therefore may be a viable alternative when I am unable to get on one of the few remaining machines.

On a side note, what is the probability that the $50,000 winner last night also won the $50,000 drawing a few months ago.

Quote: Dreamer

Thank you all for your helpful responses thus far. Alan, I understand that there are still a few of them left in the new area but last night when I was there it was very busy. I checked every machine not being played and could not find it on any of them. When I came back a few hours later it had cleared out quite a bit and I was able to find it on a machine. My interest in asking about bonus poker is because I noticed that it is on many more machines and therefore may be a viable alternative when I am unable to get on one of the few remaining machines.

On a side note, what is the probability that the $50,000 winner last night also won the $50,000 drawing a few months ago.

Yeah, it's definitely a viable alternative since the return only drops 0.09%. Strategies don't change much. One of the bigger changes is that KQ > Ace in aces & faces, but not in regular bonus.

As for the drawing, it's hard to say without a lot more details.

Quote: Dreamer

Thank you all for your helpful responses thus far. Alan, I understand that there are still a few of them left in the new area but last night when I was there it was very busy. I checked every machine not being played and could not find it on any of them. When I came back a few hours later it had cleared out quite a bit and I was able to find it on a machine. My interest in asking about bonus poker is because I noticed that it is on many more machines and therefore may be a viable alternative when I am unable to get on one of the few remaining machines.

On a side note, what is the probability that the $50,000 winner last night also won the $50,000 drawing a few months ago.

I was there last night. I was called twice for $1,000 free play. $2,000 total. Yes, I played at the kiosk of older Game Kings. But the first machine I sat down at (machine 3116 was taken) had 7/5 Bonus. I quickly got up and moved. There is even an old Game King upright with 6/5 Bonus.

I saw the lady who won the 50,000 but I didn't look at the wall of winners photos to see if she was a repeat winner. My guess is she was not a repeater.

A gentleman I was playing craps with was rather upset because he said he was playing with her the last time she won, I believe it was September. But thank you for your input and assistance regarding the two different games.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I was there last night. I was called twice for $1,000 free play. $2,000 total.

Not too shabby!!

Quote: tringlomane

One of the bigger changes is that KQ > Ace in aces & faces, but not in regular bonus.

To the best of my knowledge, unsuited King-Queen is always better than an Ace in standard 8/5 Bonus Poker (1-2-3-4-5-8-25-40-80-50-800).

Quote: JB

To the best of my knowledge, unsuited King-Queen is always better than an Ace in standard 8/5 Bonus Poker (1-2-3-4-5-8-25-40-80-50-800).

You're correct. So that means another error for your strategy maker. The other one I am aware of is Four to a flush listed higher than ALL Royals for DDB and Bonus Deluxe at 9/6 (or 10/6). It should read: 3 to a Royal AKQ, AKJ, AQJ, KQJ, KQT, KJT, QJT/4 to a flush/3 to a Royal AKT, AQT, AJT

Otherwise it's pretty much flawless, thanks!

Quote: Dreamer

A gentleman I was playing craps with was rather upset because he said he was playing with her the last time she won, I believe it was September. But thank you for your input and assistance regarding the two different games.

I just took a look at Rincon's Facebook page and unfortunately all of the winners aren't shown.

I didn't see any comments from anyone on the Facebook page about her being a repeat winner. I don't recall seeing her photo on the wall of winners... but that doesn't mean she didn't win before.

As was discussed early on, these contests favor frequent players and high rollers, and those who play on the Bonus days get extra entries. I have to admit that I've won $1,000 drawing almost every time I show up for the monthly drawings and the reason is I play a lot.

It wouldn't surprise me if one of the big monthly $50,000 winners also ends up winning the million dollars on New Year's Eve. But it is supposed to be random.

I recall talking to a Total Rewards person the night of the first drawing at the end of January. My "entries" (based on points) was in the top ten, but I didn't even get picked for a $1,000 that night. And one of the thousand dollar winners that night had only one free entry for the drawing.

I swear I saw an Ace$ for quarters at Rincon the last time I was there.... anyway I came across some freeplay and was wondering what the best thing to run it on was. It's not a huge amount ($400 or so) and I prefer to keep as much of it as I can.

Quote: djatc

I swear I saw an Ace$ for quarters at Rincon the last time I was there.... anyway I came across some freeplay and was wondering what the best thing to run it on was. It's not a huge amount ($400 or so) and I prefer to keep as much of it as I can.

Vp free said they were removed last month at that level. Cet is gutting vp everywhere. Highest EV left is 8/5 bonus with double stp. You still may rather play regular 8/5 bonus though if you're looking to minimize swing.

Quote: tringlomane

Vp free said they were removed last month at that level. Cet is gutting vp everywhere. Highest EV left is 8/5 bonus with double stp. You still may rather play regular 8/5 bonus though if you're looking to minimize swing.

Yes, swing is bad :( You can also play regular Super Times Pay for one extra credit per hand instead of two.

Quote: teddys

Yes, swing is bad :( You can also play regular Super Times Pay for one extra credit per hand instead of two.

DSTP has not been kind to me, by hitting made hands after the multiplier. STP has been good though, I was running through freeplay at Flamingo and caught 3 4's on DDB on 100 play STP and converted 2 or 3 into 4oak with kicker with a 3x multiplier.

Quote: djatc

DSTP has not been kind to me, by hitting made hands after the multiplier. STP has been good though, I was running through freeplay at Flamingo and caught 3 4's on DDB on 100 play STP and converted 2 or 3 into 4oak with kicker with a 3x multiplier.

I've never gotten a handpay on STP or DSTP. I've hit a bunch of plain vanilla quarter royals. The best dealt hand I think was a dealt SF but no multiplier of course. I did see a royal with an 8x multiplier for an $8k pay so they do exist. Also saw a guy with a dealt quad and a 10x on 10-play $0.50 JOB STP for a $6250 pay. The game is just a nightmare...crack cocaine of gambling.

Quote: tringlomane

You're correct. So that means another error for your strategy maker. The other one I am aware of is Four to a flush listed higher than ALL Royals for DDB and Bonus Deluxe at 9/6 (or 10/6). It should read: 3 to a Royal AKQ, AKJ, AQJ, KQJ, KQT, KJT, QJT/4 to a flush/3 to a Royal AKT, AQT, AJT

Otherwise it's pretty much flawless, thanks!

I actually think it's correct. However, it's a very interesting find and a tricky situation for a computer to deal with.

Let's call the group of 3-to-a-straight-flush plays (234; 235; 245; 346; 356; 457; 467; 679; 78T; 79T) simply '3SF'.

This strategy has the interesting cyclical situation where the following statements are all true:

KQ is better than Ace
Ace is better than 3SF
3SF is better than KQ

The way the strategy generator handled it was to put the KQ below the 3SF, and the 3SF below the Ace, because that introduces the least amount of error (in terms of long-term return) than any other approach.

The strategy also shows that

AK is better than Ace

and that

AQ is better than AK,

which effectively means that you should always play AQ in any hand that has AKQ,

and then it corrects everything (escapes the vicious cycle) in the very first exception, which says that KQ is better than AQ.

Regarding the other "problem," you'll notice that the plays it lists in the Four-to-a-Flush line excludes rank sequences which include any 3 to a royal where the 3 to a royal is a better play. But you have to hunt for them and it is misleading; I hope to come up with a workaround for it some day.

deleted

Slight change in the question; don't think it's enough to split, but will ask for that if necessary.

If you are playing an optimum strategy, and there are multipliers involved, is there ever a point where the multipliers change the strategy?

Specific example: I am playing Hyper poker on videopoker.com. It's 3 hands generated from one hold. There are 8 VP variations; I'm playing DWB (or BDW, depending on what source you're using). The Wizard does not, that I've found, have an optimal strategy published for this, and there's a big difference between this game and FPDW in several areas. (Straights are 1:1; Aces worth more, 3-4-5 5OAK worth more than other 5OAK)

Anyway, the Hyper generates 3 lines of multipliers based on any dealt bonus, from 1x to 12x. Seems to be random, what gets assigned to each line, but you only get the multipliers if you start with a bonus of any kind, no matter how good the hand is after you resolve the draw. So, let's say you get 2-Js-Qs-Ks-Qh. The DWB strategy says keep 4 to the royal. Fine on a regular bet; you're throwing away a pat hand win of 1. HOWEVER, with the hyper, (and I've gotten this hand several times and generated multipliers), the 3OAK has been worth as much as 28 (2 lines at 12x, the last at 4x). So, to throw away the Qh is to give up the sure 28, not just the sure 1 (3, really, since it's a 3 line).

Is there a point somewhere in there where the correct play is to hold the sure win (and any improvement 4OAK/5OAK/FH will make to it) rather than going for the flush/SF/RF/3OAK hands possible, just because of how the multipliers work? If so, how do I calculate that point?

Quote: teddys

Yes, swing is bad :( You can also play regular Super Times Pay for one extra credit per hand instead of two.

On regular STP units there, or just the Double STP units? It actually makes a difference. I would NOT recommend betting 6 credits a hand on Double STP units.

Why?

Because the average multiplier is only 4.01 on Double STP, instead of 4.05. The extra return from Double STP is mostly driven by the two chances to get multipliers, and the dealt royal with a deal multiplier awarding the 20X multiplier. If Double STP still offered a 4.05 multiplier like regular STP, the return would be 100.05%; I wish!! But alas, it's 4.01, so playing 6 credits only ups the game from 99.17% to 99.22% on a Double STP unit, so it's not worth the extra variance, imo. Either play 5 credits or 7 credits on those units.

If Rincon offered 8/5 Bonus on regular STP units (99.44%), then I would consider playing that.