Getting the math done for new games.

I wanted to throw out a few questions regarding getting the math done for newly invented games. I have talked to a number of great people on this site who have been a tremendous help to me as I go through the whole process of developing my video poker games. All your help has been great and I really appreciate it.

I'm currently in my 6th year of developing video poker games and many of them are finally making their way out of the United States Patent Office. Over those years I have scraped together enough financial resources to allow me to keep filing new games. My philosophy, right or wrong, has always been to develop a game that is fun to play. I've always felt that the math could always be adjusted to fit the new game I create by increasing the amount the player must wager or changing the bonus scheme in my games. In addition, when writing the patent I have always left the pay scale as something that can be adjusted.

So, my questions are:

Is it better to get the math done before filing the game in the patent office? after the game has been allowed? or let the potential company that is interested in the game work out the math?

If a company is interested in one of my games, wouldn't they want to do the math on their own to double check it?

For the math people out there, am I right to believe that the math can be adjusted to allow every game to play at 98%?

If I hire someone to do the math and I currently have a pay scale that is not even close to making the game 98%, will the math they do help me figure out what needs to be done to get the game to the right pay back or am I out the money and I will just have the math for my game based on how it is in my current game?

Thanks,
Realize Gaming, LLC

I think you need to do the math pretty early in the process because the proper pays and probabilities will weigh on the fun factor.

I created a really fun video poker game that turned out to be 126% payback. It wasn't much fun when I modified it to be in the 98% range.

Quote: DRich

I think you need to do the math pretty early in the process because the proper pays and probabilities will weigh on the fun factor.

I created a really fun video poker game that turned out to be 126% payback. It wasn't much fun when I modified it to be in the 98% range.

:(

I don't like the sound of this because one of OPs game I played for "fun" was likely > 126%.

Quote: tringlomane

:(

I don't like the sound of this because one of OPs game I played for "fun" was likely > 126%.

Probably closer to 200%!!!!!!

Holy Toledo, Tim Is this you too ?

http://www.realizegaming.com/

Quote: DRich

I think you need to do the math pretty early in the process because the proper pays and probabilities will weigh on the fun factor.

I created a really fun video poker game that turned out to be 126% payback. It wasn't much fun when I modified it to be in the 98% range.

That's one of the problems in the whole process of developing games...I want to get protection on each game I come up with but I always worry about too many people having access to it before it is protected. I also tweak it during the process and it always leads to other ideas. It almost seems like I'd be wasting money on the math until I was very sure of the gameplay.

WHOA Is this pay table correct ?

If so, the main game payout is 99.5 %

Where will the money come to pay the discard hand ?

http://youtu.be/Dzthk0ogppI

That shouldn't be an issue. Do a provisional patent. $110. And be sure to write it right!

I did my own provisional for Poker For Roulette. The concept was originally a 5 spin bet. But I was covered by the provisional as well as utility when I switched to 3 spins.

Quote: Buzzard

WHOA Is this pay table correct ?

If so, the main game payout is 99.5 %

Where will the money come to pay the discard hand ?

http://youtu.be/Dzthk0ogppI

Buzzard,

No, the website www.realizegaming.com is not mine.

The pay table needs work. I want to keep the main pay table as close as possible to what the players are use to which means the discard hand will need to be adjusted. I didn't really like the five card discard hand as much as the three and four card hand. This leads to another question, would I have to get the math done on each game along with each variation of the game.

Hind sight is always 20-20. But wondering why you waited so long after applying for patents to try and pitch your games ?
As for the math, most VP pays below 98% as it is. And your payoffs are over 100%. sometimes way over.

A player looks at a new game and knows he is giving up something for this new feature. A math guy can reduce the HE, but you have to decide what is worth giving up ?

Approximately how much, including attorney fees, filing fees, etc., does it cost to have a video poker game patented? And how much do you expect to pay to have a mathematician work out the math for a game?

If you're worried about working with someone else without a patent in hand, I'd think a provisional patent or simple non-disclosure agreement would probably cover you.

Go with a provisional patent. The typical non-disclosure covers everybody except the inventor.

Quote: Buzzard

Hind sight is always 20-20. But wondering why you waited so long after applying for patents to try and pitch your games ?
As for the math, most VP pays below 98% as it is. And your payoffs are over 100%. sometimes way over.

A player looks at a new game and knows he is giving up something for this new feature. A math guy can reduce the HE, but you have to decide what is worth giving up ?

Once my patents were filed as provisionals, I talked to a number of companies who all showed really great interest in the games, but would not move forward without an actual issued patent. I'm not sure if that is the same way it works for those developing table games, but all the companies I talked with wanted the actual patent before they could do anything. Also, I was still battling the patent office with the whole Bilski case which I'm sure scared some companies away and prolonged the whole patent process.

Quote: G71

Approximately how much, including attorney fees, filing fees, etc., does it cost to have a video poker game patented? And how much do you expect to pay to have a mathematician work out the math for a game?

If you're worried about working with someone else without a patent in hand, I'd think a provisional patent or simple non-disclosure agreement would probably cover you.

I average around 12k for each patent. Some are more and some are less. The attorney fees are the majority of the price and that covers a ton of work on their end. I have spent countless hours working with the patent attorney on patents and it adds up in a hurry. A few hours and all of a sudden you are looking at close to $1000, before even talking about drawings, filing fees, extensions, patent searches, etc. I'm currently in the range of 20 patents with at least another 10 that I want to get filed, but at some point I have to get a return before continuing on.

I'm still not sure what to expect on hiring a mathematician. I'm more than willing to put in the resources, but I don't really have an idea what it would cost me. I've heard all kinds of numbers from a few thousand to almost the cost of the patent. The other question becomes, do I stop putting money into new patents to concentrate on getting the math done.

Does anyone out there hire a "full time" mathematician that works strictly on their games? Do you hire them for a set amount or make an agreement with them to share in a percentage of the money that would be made from the new game if a company picks up the game?

I think it's important to at least have an idea of the effects of various things you are thinking of and try and get a ballpark before going too far. This can enable you know roughly the effect tweaking A has and how tweaking B might offset this. I don't know VP very well but imagine, like Blackjack, you want to give some nice ideas or more chances to win but know you have to grab it back somewhere else. For instance Spanish 21 gives bonuses but takes it back by having no 10s, Freebet takes it back by Push 22 - getting the two to balance is quite a skill.

One lucky thing you presumably have is a paytable, although I guess strategy might change if you change the values too much. Thus you have more freedom to set the various values up or down. At a first cut you can work out the probabilities of various things (1 Pair, 2 Pairs etc.), play around a bit and work out a paytable and at a later stage iterate paytable/strategy to a good HE.

Personally when designing card games I use infinite decks (or single deck) as a first approximation and only look at exact numbers later, but appreciate some effects of this: for example pairs in two cards are more likely with infinite decks (1 in 13) than one deck (1 in 17).

I hope I'm not crossing any lines by asking this question....if I am, please let me know.....but it has to do with the math for my game Slide Poker.

About how often does any pair end up in hand positions 4 and 5 at the conclusion of a standard hand of video poker?

and/or

About how often does the ending hand contain a pair in any position?

My view on the first questions is that it happens quite often, even if it is only in position 4 and 5. My thought on the second question is it happens way to often to build a bonus game off of that idea...even though I do both in my patent for Slide Poker.

Slide Poker Demo