Ardent1
• Posts: 168
Joined: Dec 19, 2012
June 9th, 2013 at 3:12:59 AM permalink
I was playing at a unnamed casinos that had a video UTHE. I have no idea what the correct strategy is for this game, but I was using a combination of Steve How's basic strategy along with J. Grosjean's strategy. If you assume the element of risk at 55 basis points, then I was playing with advantage between 2% to 4% due to promotions et al.

I don't play HE so I started learning the game using a basic strategy found on the internet (I knew it was incorrect, but it was a good place to start). Then I tried to learn the Wizard's strategy and that was hard. Next was Steve How's strategy and Steve's inability to discern absolute nut kickers from relative nut kickers was a problem. Then I decided on Grosjean's strategy except he omits certain information such as, but not limited to, counting flush out with 4-flush cards on the board. I liked the fact that each stage was a pure-math proposition bet.

Here are my observations:
(A) most traditional video poker players do not consider video UTHE as a video poker game, but they should add the game to their arsenal.
(B) I was playing mostly 400 to 600 hands (as much as 1,200 hands) of UTHE a day and that is a lot of HE hands.
(C) Steve How has the best public information on strategy deviations such as betting 4X on either J9o or K4o, etc.
(D) Grojean's strategy is really easy to learn and his emphasis on "outs" simplifies the Fold or 1X stage.
(E) It's easy to make fat finger mistakes since the design of the game does not allow for "undoing" an action.
(F) Despite the variance being under 6 units, the game is streaky and a 200-Ante buy-in may not be enough at times.
(G) The bad beats are nasty and frequent.
(H) Playing the board is tough since it comes down to the kicker: two-pair with ace kicker and it's a no-brainer to play the board; however, it takes discipline to fold knowing the odds are you will be outkicked.

I never hit the RF, but I did hit the STFL and Quads many times. I am burnt out so I am not upset the casino removed the game.

Cheers.

PS When the board shows 3 flush cards and you pair up with one of your hole-cards, it's not clear what the correct strategy is. For example, if you have the 7h3d as your hole cards and the flop comes KJ7s where you are now holding a pair of 7's, the correct play is to check rather than bet 2X. However, if your hole cards are 8h3d and the flop is KJ8s, you now bet 2X with your pair of 8's.

Also, if you have 7h3d and the flop is K75s where you are holding a pair of 7's, the correct play is 2X. In fairness, Steve How talks about this bottom pair issue versus 3 flush cards on the flop. Again, I do NOT know the correct strategy for this game, but it was fun playing with Grojean's basic strategy along with Steve How's insights.
Ardent1
• Posts: 168
Joined: Dec 19, 2012
June 9th, 2013 at 3:49:24 AM permalink
UTHE is made up of three separate math-oriented proposition bets: (a) a 2-card hand, (b) a 5-card hand, and (c) a 7-card hand (which includes playing the board!). The 2-card hand is IMHO a game of copies, overcards, flushes, straight, etc. Here are the 2-card stategy deviations to basic strategy when playing 2-Hands at the same time (i.e. looking at 4 hole-cards) based on Steve How's work at discountgambling.net:

Check vs 4X
44 2 Copies
33 1 Copy
A2 1 High and 1 Low Copies
K7o 1 Low Copy of "7"
K6o 1 Any Copy
K5o 1 Any Copy
Q9o 1 Any Copy
Q8o 1 Any Copy
JTo 1 Any Copy

4X vs Check
K4o No Copies
Q6o 2 Overcards (A or K)
J9o No Copies

The basic strategy for UTHE is to bet 4X when you have a pair of 4's but if you see 2 copies, i.e., the remaining two 4's in your other hand, then you should check both hands as opposed to betting 4X for each hand. If you have Q9o in one hand and you see either a Q or a 9 in your other hand, then you should check the Q9o rather than bet 4X.

If you have K4o in one hand and don't see either a K or a 4 in your other hand, then bet 4X as opposed to check per basic strategy. If you have a pair of Aces in one hand and Q7o in your other hand, then bet 4X for both hands even though basic strategy tells you to check on Q7.

I'll share more hands when I get the chance. Video UTHE has a house edge similar to 9/6 JOB but comes with about 1/3rd the variance.

Cheers.
Ardent1
• Posts: 168
Joined: Dec 19, 2012
June 9th, 2013 at 4:28:30 AM permalink
Reducing variance in video UTHE.

Most people don't understand that the weights are squared when calculating variance at the portfolio level. Steve How talks about the benefit of collusion or using more information at UTHE. In fact, Steve's simulations show that the variance of the game is reduced when using collusion. However, Steve does not show the math so here is the math for those that are curious:

When playing 2 hands at the same time:
Var(P) = W(A)^2*Var(A) + W(B)^2*VAR(B) + 2*W(A)*W(B)*Covariance(A,B)
sometimes you see the last term as 2*W(A)*W(B)*Stdev(A)*Stdev(B)*Rho(A,B) where Rho(A,B) is simply the correlation between A & B. Wikipedia has the formula for playing 3 hands at the same time and it's not hard to extend the formula to 4 hands or more, respectively.

(source: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/portfolio-variance.asp and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_portfolio_theory)

If you are playing two hands at the same time and making the same bet for each hand, the formula is reduced even further since the weight of (A) is now equal to the weight of (B). The key point to remember is the weights are squared at the portfolio level. One of the nice things about video UTHE was the ability to play horizontally as opposed to playing vertically in the case of N-play.

Cheers.
tringlomane
• Posts: 6282
Joined: Aug 25, 2012
June 9th, 2013 at 12:28:44 PM permalink
Quote: Ardent1

PS When the board shows 3 flush cards and you pair up with one of your hole-cards, it's not clear what the correct strategy is. For example, if you have the 7h3d as your hole cards and the flop comes KJ7s where you are now holding a pair of 7's, the correct play is to check rather than bet 2X. However, if your hole cards are 8h3d and the flop is KJ8s, you now bet 2X with your pair of 8's.

Also, if you have 7h3d and the flop is K75s where you are holding a pair of 7's, the correct play is 2X. In fairness, Steve How talks about this bottom pair issue versus 3 flush cards on the flop. Again, I do NOT know the correct strategy for this game, but it was fun playing with Grojean's basic strategy along with Steve How's insights.

Some of the equity difference comes from the number of ranks that the dealer possibly could make a better pair with on future cards. With KJ7s, the dealer could possibly make a better pair with an Ace, Queen, Ten, Nine, or Eight on the turn or river. With KJ8s, then only an Ace, Queen, Ten, or Nine could possibly do it.
JimRockford
• Posts: 653
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
June 9th, 2013 at 1:23:08 PM permalink
Anyone know where I can find UTH machines in Vegas?
"Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things." -- Isaac Newton
rdw4potus
• Posts: 7237
Joined: Mar 11, 2010
June 9th, 2013 at 1:55:08 PM permalink
Quote: JimRockford

Anyone know where I can find UTH machines in Vegas?

There was one in the all-video pit at Monte Lago when they reopened. I'm not sure if it's still there - havent been out that way in a couple years now.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
aKaTIMSPEED
• Posts: 33
Joined: Jun 2, 2013
June 9th, 2013 at 2:32:34 PM permalink
Quote: JimRockford

Anyone know where I can find UTH machines in Vegas?

The last one is at the Tropicana, \$3 minimum.
I think it may be the last one in the state of Nevada..
Welcome to the Republic of Nevada, where the 13th Amendment doesn't exist.
Ibeatyouraces
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June 9th, 2013 at 2:37:32 PM permalink
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rdw4potus
• Posts: 7237
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June 9th, 2013 at 2:43:03 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Your methology is wrong. Each hand is dealt from a seperate deck. You may even be dealt the exact same thing in both hands

Are you sure? What deck are the shared community cards dealt from?
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
tringlomane
• Posts: 6282
Joined: Aug 25, 2012
June 9th, 2013 at 2:46:35 PM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

Are you sure? What deck are the shared community cards dealt from?

I believe those are chosen first.

And are all the UTH units dealt in this manner? I have heard that they do this, but I have never looked that in-depth into it.
Ibeatyouraces
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June 9th, 2013 at 2:48:39 PM permalink
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tringlomane
• Posts: 6282
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June 9th, 2013 at 3:00:12 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Yes I'm sure. Many times you'll see one of yours or others in anothers hand. First time I noticed was when a friend had Q,4 offsuit while another player had the exact same 4. Have seen this many time since then.

From "pokeraddict" on 2+2. Ten of diamonds duplicated.

Ibeatyouraces
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June 9th, 2013 at 3:01:35 PM permalink
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• Posts: 786
Joined: Feb 21, 2012
June 9th, 2013 at 3:17:58 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I believe its be discussed on here before also

I took that screenshot at Binions 2-3 years ago. LVC used a similar deal where each player had its own deck. Both of those machines are long gone.

The Trop machine does NOT do this. It deals a 52 card deck like the standard table would. I also know of a machine at Indian Springs Casino about 30 miles NW of LV that also deals the game legitimately and has just a \$1 min. It is popular from the base people that want to play poker but there is no poker room there. When LVC pulled their game I would go up there but there is no reason to do so now.

I convinced Trop to install this machine through someone I know there and I promised a certain level of action. As you see they did a great job updating the box. They put it into a Dealer's Angel BJ monitor and base.

Their player's club is very poor so there is really no advantage to tables. I would just prefer to play the video version. It is faster, no tipping and always open. I go in there in the middle of the night during the week a time or two a week.
Ardent1
• Posts: 168
Joined: Dec 19, 2012
June 9th, 2013 at 5:13:37 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Your methology is wrong. Each hand is dealt from a seperate deck. You may even be dealt the exact same thing in both hands

Ibeatyouraces, you make the most basic mistake. I played well over 50,000+ hands and I never sawed two identical cards.

If you understand basic probabilty, the odds of two identical cards manifesting themselves in the same round must occur due to the law of large numbers.

Cheers.
Ardent1
• Posts: 168
Joined: Dec 19, 2012
June 9th, 2013 at 5:16:28 PM permalink
That is a software bug. I've seen all sorts of bugs so it's not uncommon.

Cheers.
Ibeatyouraces
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June 9th, 2013 at 5:24:14 PM permalink
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tringlomane
• Posts: 6282
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June 9th, 2013 at 5:39:44 PM permalink
Quote: Ardent1

Ibeatyouraces, you make the most basic mistake. I played well over 50,000+ hands and I never sawed two identical cards.

If you understand basic probabilty, the odds of two identical cards manifesting themselves in the same round must occur due to the law of large numbers.

Cheers.

If the cards are dealt from a single deck, then the probability of the exact same card appearing twice is zero. If you haven't seen it in 50,000 hands, then yes, your unit is dealt from a single deck. However, it has been shown that on some units, players are allowed to receive duplicate cards. It is an important fact that should be clarified, and we were trying to be helpful by pointing that out. Because if your unit did allow players to receive duplicate cards, then using your neighbors' cards as extra information is moot. Ibeatyouraces may have made a poor assumption by assuming ALL machines operate this way, but he did not make a "basic mistake" and implying that he doesn't understand "basic probability" is uncalled for. You repeatedly do this to forum members in nearly all of your posts, and it is very tiresome.
Ibeatyouraces
• Posts: 11933
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June 9th, 2013 at 5:50:18 PM permalink
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Ardent1
• Posts: 168
Joined: Dec 19, 2012
June 9th, 2013 at 6:05:54 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

Some of the equity difference comes from the number of ranks that the dealer possibly could make a better pair with on future cards. With KJ7s, the dealer could possibly make a better pair with an Ace, Queen, Ten, Nine, or Eight on the turn or river. With KJ8s, then only an Ace, Queen, Ten, or Nine could possibly do it.

Out of respect for the inventor, I won't disclose Grosjean's basic strategy even though the Fair Use Clause allows for it. In contrast, I can disclose Steve How's strategy since it's in the public domain. Neither Grosjean's strategy nor Steve How's strategy correctly addresses this hand completely.

Second, and this is really important. Unlike you, I am smart enough to KNOW when I don't know something. I wrote it's not clear what the correct strategy is for a reason -- for one, I don't program -- and after completing 2 graduate programs, I have learned to keep an open mind.

tringlomane, take these examples (EV numbers comes from WOO's UTHE calculator):

Hole cards: 8h2d

Flop: K98s

Best Play: Check
EV of Raise: -0.551126
EV of Check: -0.548734

Here's another example:

Hole cards: 8h2d

Flop is KJ8s

Best Play: Raise
EV of Raise: -0.488805
EV of Check: -0.503504

In summary, your comment of "Some of the equity difference comes from the number of ranks that the dealer possibly could make a better pair with on future cards." doesn't say much (in graduate school, your comment would be considered tautologically correct, but meaningless or low-value added).

You have the same starting hole cards, the flop is 3 flush cards, and in both cases you have a hole-card bottom-pair. Nothing in your comment explains why in the first case, it's a check, and in the second case it's 2X. Again, I don't know the correct strategy; however, it should be clear that a pair of 7's as the hole-card bottom pair is not the threshold (as used in my earlier post) versus a flop of 3 flush cards as evidenced by checking a pair of 8's in this post. I suspect that Grosjean probably looked at this situation and decided it wasn't worth the trouble to alter basic strategy.
Ardent1
• Posts: 168
Joined: Dec 19, 2012
June 9th, 2013 at 6:08:31 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Correct. I made an assumption based off of what I've seen and the above picture proves that those machines deal that way. As for the "basic probability" comment, I just laughed that off.

Ibeatyouraces,

Do you know why you make dumb comments? Perhaps it is because you make bad assumption(s).

Cheers.
Ardent1
• Posts: 168
Joined: Dec 19, 2012
June 9th, 2013 at 6:15:27 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

If the cards are dealt from a single deck, then the probability of the exact same card appearing twice is zero. If you haven't seen it in 50,000 hands, then yes, your unit is dealt from a single deck. However, it has been shown that on some units, players are allowed to receive duplicate cards. It is an important fact that should be clarified, and we were trying to be helpful by pointing that out. Because if your unit did allow players to receive duplicate cards, then using your neighbors' cards as extra information is moot. Ibeatyouraces may have made a poor assumption by assuming ALL machines operate this way, but he did not make a "basic mistake" and implying that he doesn't understand "basic probability" is uncalled for. You repeatedly do this to forum members in nearly all of your posts, and it is very tiresome.

tringlomane,

By uncalled for, do you mean when someone DELIBERATELY picks a fight over something they don't understand? Does it ring a bell? So when you were unduly argumentative and attack me over Ultimate X, that was okay?? Let's not call the kettle black shall we. Your level of hypocrisy knows no bounds.

I used the law of large numbers along with basic probabilities to challenge Ibeatyouraces, which is a fair argument.

tringlomane, I am not responsible if you don't debate well nor am I responsible if Ibeatyouraces, in his haste to attack me, makes bad assumptions and results in dumb comments.

Cheers.
Ibeatyouraces
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June 9th, 2013 at 6:24:40 PM permalink
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rdw4potus
• Posts: 7237
Joined: Mar 11, 2010
June 9th, 2013 at 6:55:24 PM permalink
Quote: Ardent1

That is a software bug. I've seen all sorts of bugs so it's not uncommon.

Cheers.

Now who's making assumptions of suspect quality?
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
sabre
• Posts: 1172
Joined: Aug 16, 2010
June 9th, 2013 at 7:10:42 PM permalink
Quote: Ardent1

That is a software bug. I've seen all sorts of bugs so it's not uncommon.

Cheers.

A firmware update to change the dealing methodology is far more likely. I'm not sure how you can possibly assume that the duplicate card is a display bug. If you're calling it a bug in the method of randomizing a shuffle on a single deck of cards, well, that's even more unlikely.

Also, you come across as a raging asshole in virtually all your posts.
djatc
• Posts: 4477
Joined: Jan 15, 2013
June 9th, 2013 at 7:57:53 PM permalink
On the flip side dealer errors in this game will be non-existent on a machine :(
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
• Posts: 786
Joined: Feb 21, 2012
June 9th, 2013 at 8:13:27 PM permalink
I'm not sure what you guys are arguing about here. Think of it as there are two settings on this SHFL UTH machine.

One setting allows the machine to deal the dealer two cards then a five card board. It then deals two cards to player #1, then reshuffles player #1 cards back into the deck giving those cards the chance to show up in player #2's hand and so on. I have seen multiple people have quads before at LVC with a bare card and trips on the board. This method was used at Binions (where I took that picture after the setting was changed because the machine showed as "Deals with one 52 card deck) as well as LVC and NGCB just ignored me. I describe this as the Pennsylvania setting. I assume this was done to prevent collusion but there was a law in PA that required this type of setting.

Setting #2 deals exactly like the table game where 52 cards are used and are used and no two players can have the same exact value and suit card.
cclub79
• Posts: 1147
Joined: Dec 16, 2009
June 9th, 2013 at 9:13:42 PM permalink

I describe this as the Pennsylvania setting. I assume this was done to prevent collusion but there was a law in PA that required this type of setting.
.

I never saw this SM Game in PA during that time, but the law was designed specifically for BlackJack so you couldn't affect another's hand by your decision. Since there's no draw/stand decisions in this game, it seems unnecessary, but probably still done. I remember playing 3CP ShuffleMaster but I don't remember if we saw duplicate cards. Probably same rule though...
tringlomane
• Posts: 6282
Joined: Aug 25, 2012
June 9th, 2013 at 9:40:35 PM permalink
Quote: Ardent1

tringlomane,

By uncalled for, do you mean when someone DELIBERATELY picks a fight over something they don't understand? Does it ring a bell? So when you were unduly argumentative and attack me over Ultimate X, that was okay?? Let's not call the kettle black shall we. Your level of hypocrisy knows no bounds.

Found the thread you were talking about, and I definitely understood enough to counter your point of betting one credit to max EV %age (which is true in many cases). There were 2 examples given previously in the thread where all hands were 12X, so I clearly explained that you were better off betting 5 coins for all lines in that case. The first two responses to the "argument":

Quote: Ardent1

The correct conventional strategy depends on so many factors -- many times, you bet one coin per line to max the average X per lined played, respectively. For example, on a 10-play machine that has X's to the first 4 lines, then you should bet one coin up to line 4 due to game structure, respectively.

5 coin bets on all the lines are rare based on my experience -- max coin bets may max the absolute EV in dollars, but single coin bets generallly max the EV on a percentage basis.

Quote: tringlomane

What you are arguing can max out your return on a %age basis in a lot of cases, but in the example described, one would be an idiot not to bet max since every hand was a 12X multiplier. At some point the average multiplier has to be high enough to justify the max bet, what that point is...I really don't know. Ultimate X has horrible paytables in my area/\$1.50 a hand minimum, so I have rarely played the game, and I have never noticed multipliers left in a machine. I have rarely looked for them either though.

I agreed with some of your points! And the bolded text in the quote and later in this response totally counters this mild insult you gave me today:

Quote: Ardent1

Unlike you, I am smart enough to KNOW when I don't know something.

This link to the thread is below for anyone interested in reading the rest of the thread where I was apparently being a ranting idiot because by the end according to Ardent in that thread, I "mouth off on a public forum!!!"

Quote: Ardent1

and after completing 2 graduate programs, I have learned to keep an open mind.

Given your posting on this site, I wholeheartedly disagree because you are nearly always looking to find faults in other posters' responses and will respond to said faults in a belittling manner. I do find faults occasionally in posts, but I on the other hand, will NOT belittle someone over a "mistake" and will try my best to also explain why it is a mistake instead of just saying "You're wrong", or "You're dumb". The reason why I am "argumentative" to you is because I will not put up with being belittled. You damn well better believe I will defend myself and other members of this forum, especially against attacks that are pointless and unmerited.

Your posting style is terribly unfortunate in my opinion because when you don't waste words on belittling others for no good reason, like you have with me and others in this thread and many other threads including the one linked above, you have great insight on various gambling games! And it is often much better insight on these games than I even have! And many of these games are of particular interest to me, so I really, really want to read the gaming content of your posts!

And finally, back to the original topic:

My comment with regard to having bottom pair on a suited board wasn't never intended to be a total solution to the decision point because...I don't know the exact answer either! But my comment does help explain why it is a raise with KJ8s w/83o vs. a check with KJ7s w/73o for those given hands. Maybe pointing this out was so painfully obvious to you that it wasn't worth explaining for the benefit of everyone reading this on the forum, but I thought it was worth pointing out a key difference between those two example hands even if it was obvious to you. If I wasted my time by writing that response because it was useful to no one on this forum, I apologize.

As for the crux of the matter, the issue with bottom pair on a suited board is complex enough, but likely not valuable enough to the overall strategy, to more clearly quantify than what Stephen How has already written over this decision point. This is my opinion; feel free to disagree with me.
JimRockford
• Posts: 653
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
June 9th, 2013 at 9:58:49 PM permalink
Quote: Ardent1

Hole cards: 8h2d

Flop: K98s

Best Play: Check
EV of Raise: -0.551126
EV of Check: -0.548734

Here's another example:

Hole cards: 8h2d

Flop is KJ8s

Best Play: Raise
EV of Raise: -0.488805
EV of Check: -0.503504

In the first scenario you are more likely to be beat by a dealer's straight.
"Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things." -- Isaac Newton
Ibeatyouraces
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June 9th, 2013 at 10:22:35 PM permalink
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Mission146
• Posts: 16832
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June 10th, 2013 at 7:00:24 AM permalink
Quote: Ardent1

tringlomane,

By uncalled for, do you mean when someone DELIBERATELY picks a fight over something they don't understand? Does it ring a bell? So when you were unduly argumentative and attack me over Ultimate X, that was okay?? Let's not call the kettle black shall we. Your level of hypocrisy knows no bounds.

I used the law of large numbers along with basic probabilities to challenge Ibeatyouraces, which is a fair argument.

tringlomane, I am not responsible if you don't debate well nor am I responsible if Ibeatyouraces, in his haste to attack me, makes bad assumptions and results in dumb comments.

Cheers.

This and the one before it, see you in three days.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
• Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
June 10th, 2013 at 7:09:47 AM permalink
Quote: sabre

Also, you come across as a raging asshole in virtually all your posts.

This is not quite an insult because you are not saying that he is a raging rectal cavity, but one of the ways I enforce the profanity rule is that I really don't like to see it in the context of a statement made to another Member. With strict enforcement of the profanity rule, I probably wouldn't even be here anymore (lol), but let's try to keep it to statements not directed specifically at other Members.

No Suspension.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
dwheatley
• Posts: 1246
Joined: Nov 16, 2009
June 10th, 2013 at 7:10:14 AM permalink
Quote: JimRockford

In the first scenario you are more likely to be beat by a dealer's straight.

+1
Wisdom is the quality that keeps you out of situations where you would otherwise need it
Ibeatyouraces
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June 10th, 2013 at 7:23:22 AM permalink
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JimRockford
• Posts: 653
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June 10th, 2013 at 8:30:48 AM permalink
Quote: Ardent1

Out of respect for the inventor, I won't disclose Grosjean's basic strategy even though the Fair Use Clause allows for it.

I don't share Ardent's confidence that the content of Grosjean's strategy can be posted here under the fair use clause. If someone did that, I believe action could be taken against this site.
"Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things." -- Isaac Newton
dwheatley
• Posts: 1246
Joined: Nov 16, 2009
June 10th, 2013 at 10:10:31 AM permalink
Quote: JimRockford

I don't share Ardent's confidence that the content of Grosjean's strategy can be posted here under the fair use clause. If someone did that, I believe action could be taken against this site.

+1
From the wiki:
"In L.A. Times v. Free Republic, the court found that the noncommercial use of LA Times content by the Free Republic Web site was in fact not fair use, since it allowed the public to obtain material at no cost that they would otherwise pay for."
Wisdom is the quality that keeps you out of situations where you would otherwise need it
rdw4potus
• Posts: 7237
Joined: Mar 11, 2010
June 10th, 2013 at 10:18:19 AM permalink
Quote: dwheatley

+1
From the wiki:
"In L.A. Times v. Free Republic, the court found that the noncommercial use of LA Times content by the Free Republic Web site was in fact not fair use, since it allowed the public to obtain material at no cost that they would otherwise pay for."

But wouldn't the action be taken against the poster? Surely the site can't be penalized for not actively censoring it's members.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
JimRockford
• Posts: 653
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
June 10th, 2013 at 12:30:56 PM permalink

I took that screenshot at Binions 2-3 years ago. LVC used a similar deal where each player had its own deck. Both of those machines are long gone.

The Trop machine does NOT do this. It deals a 52 card deck like the standard table would. I also know of a machine at Indian Springs Casino about 30 miles NW of LV that also deals the game legitimately and has just a \$1 min. It is popular from the base people that want to play poker but there is no poker room there. When LVC pulled their game I would go up there but there is no reason to do so now.

I convinced Trop to install this machine through someone I know there and I promised a certain level of action. As you see they did a great job updating the box. They put it into a Dealer's Angel BJ monitor and base.

Their player's club is very poor so there is really no advantage to tables. I would just prefer to play the video version. It is faster, no tipping and always open. I go in there in the middle of the night during the week a time or two a week.

Addict and Timspeed, thank you for the information. My wife enjoys playing the wizards UTH game but she doesn't like table games. She is so pleased to know that there is a video option for our next trip to Vegas.
"Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things." -- Isaac Newton
tringlomane
• Posts: 6282
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June 10th, 2013 at 12:38:07 PM permalink
Quote: JimRockford

Addict and Timspeed, thank you for the information. My wife enjoys playing the wizards UTH game but she doesn't like table games. She is so pleased to know that there is a video option for our next trip to Vegas.

Yeah, she probably wouldn't like a real table if she is playing near-optimal strategy either. The rest of the table will think you two are maniacs and possibly give you lip for it...lol If it is still at the Trop when I get back there, I'll be tempted to give it a shot as well.
JimRockford
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June 10th, 2013 at 1:20:18 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

Yeah, she probably wouldn't like a real table if she is playing near-optimal strategy either. The rest of the table will think you two are maniacs and possibly give you lip for it...lol If it is still at the Trop when I get back there, I'll be tempted to give it a shot as well.

yes, that is exactly what she doesn't like about tables. Now, me I don't give a damn what the other players say. Let them think I am a maniac. Better yet, let the pit think I am a maniac. Maybe I will do a drunk act.
"Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things." -- Isaac Newton
aKaTIMSPEED
• Posts: 33
Joined: Jun 2, 2013
June 10th, 2013 at 2:41:40 PM permalink
Yep...when I chunk 4x on a K5, and draw dead, I always get admonished that I'm crazy...and "trips is where the money is!"
Well, when I watch people check down a big pair, only to "push their trips bet back to them" then I get a sly smile...
Welcome to the Republic of Nevada, where the 13th Amendment doesn't exist.
djatc
• Posts: 4477
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June 10th, 2013 at 3:29:13 PM permalink
Raising Ace rag makes people insane. You start raising King suited people go berserk. Raising 33 makes people pull their hair out.
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
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Joined: Feb 21, 2012
June 10th, 2013 at 4:00:44 PM permalink
When I play it with my wife people think we are nuts raising 4x on hands that would be holds in real poker. The same thing used to happen at LVC.

The cash back is poor but I suppose you could get some good bounce backs and free hotel rooms if you were from out of town. The mailers seem like good deals to me but a room is of no use to me since I live here.
beachbumbabs
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June 13th, 2013 at 3:42:08 PM permalink
Edit: not sure why the quote box didn't work (think I killed the formatting maybe), but I'm quoting here:One setting allows the machine to deal the dealer two cards then a five card board. It then deals two cards to player #1, then reshuffles player #1 cards back into the deck giving those cards the chance to show up in player #2's hand and so on. I have seen multiple people have quads before at LVC with a bare card and trips on the board. This method was used at Binions (where I took that picture after the setting was changed because the machine showed as "Deals with one 52 card deck) as well as LVC and NGCB just ignored me. I describe this as the Pennsylvania setting. I assume this was done to prevent collusion but there was a law in PA that required this type of setting. (end quote)

That they can set card games to do this is exactly why I don't like to play video sims of card games. They pre-determine the outcome rather than allow a truly random deal. Maybe I'm missing something, but they'll never convince me I'll trust or enjoy this more than a live deal.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
tringlomane
• Posts: 6282
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June 13th, 2013 at 6:18:46 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

That they can set card games to do this is exactly why I don't like to play video sims of card games. They pre-determine the outcome rather than allow a truly random deal. Maybe I'm missing something, but they'll never convince me I'll trust or enjoy this more than a live deal.

Yeah, machines can be programmed to do anything, so you have to go on faith with these things. The Ultimate Texas Holdem game was still "random" but you were just allowed to get the same hole cards as your neighbors. But the fact they released the game in that fashion definitely should make players skeptical, especially if it isn't clearly stated on the machine.
JimRockford
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July 5th, 2013 at 2:11:11 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

Yeah, she probably wouldn't like a real table if she is playing near-optimal strategy either. The rest of the table will think you two are maniacs and possibly give you lip for it...lol If it is still at the Trop when I get back there, I'll be tempted to give it a shot as well.

I finally got the chance to play this game at the Mirage and later at the Wynne. I did not play very long at either casino, because I did not find the atmosphere very fun. Almost all of the other players at the table seemed to have no understanding of the game before they sat down. As a result the dealers were constantly teaching and coaching players. I played using GrosJean’s strategy and the dealers thought I had no clue. They advised a very conservative strategy which they really thought was optimal I guess. One dealer at the Mirage examined and critiqued everybody’s hand whether they had folded it or not. This made me uncomfortable and just seems wrong to me. If I fold, it should be my choice to disclose the cards or not.

The worst was a dealer at the Wynne. She was a middle aged Russian woman and she played up the Russian bit with a tough curt style “I beat you like Russian step child.” I figured it was just part of her shtick and meant to be good natured, but she became more abrasive with each hand, frustrated that I would not follow her advice. After she openly scolded me for raising 4x on a K,8 or something, I said, “you know, they have done the math on this game” She leaned close toward me and said “People that follow the math are biggest losers in casino. This game is not about math, it is about luck. You buy some guy’s book and think you can play crazy and beat casino” I told her that I really didn’t come here to argue and I would play however I wanted. She stopped talking to me after that, but I colored up after a couple of hands. Not much fun.
"Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things." -- Isaac Newton
teddys
• Posts: 5529
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
July 5th, 2013 at 2:21:28 PM permalink
I had the opposite experience at Mirage. The dealer I was playing with noticed my strategy, and commented, "You are good, you could make a living from this game." Haha, I wish! Wait...
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
Ibeatyouraces
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July 5th, 2013 at 2:29:09 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
tringlomane