How do you know when a pay table is good? (Super Times Pay or Ultimate X)
March 27th, 2013 at 12:49:54 PM
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When I first started playing Video Poker, I stuck with the basics, single line play, mainly Double Double Bonus or Deuces and mainly $0.05 or $0.10 machines. However, over time that got old. Now, it is mainly five play or ten play $0.25 machines. I have been interested by other games such as Super Times Pay and Ultimate X, but believed the return, under 99%, was never worth the extra money. Last year the Wiz reported on his trip to Laughlin and stated: "In case you're wondering, the game was 9-5 Jacks or Better Super Times Pay. The return on that game is 98.72%. I know that isn't great, but for a Harrah's casino it is a good find. On that machine, Bonus Reward Credits were earned at a rate of 83% of Base Reward Credits. That makes the effective comp rate 0.183% on that machine at least. However, it doesn't take much to get offered free rooms from Harrah's, including this one, which was comped based on recent play in Las Vegas." Now, personally, I would have never thought this was "good," obviously not great, return. Never one to second the guess the Wiz though when it comes to which games have "good" returns, I wondered how do you know when a pay table is "good" for these types of video poker games. When you look up the top paying games on vpfree2 it does not usually list games like Super Times pay or Ultimate X as "good" games. So how do you know? And when I check Super Times Pay or Ultimate X how will know if it is a "good" game or not, meaning if 98.72% is good, when does it become bad 98.5% or 97.3%?
Thanks for any feedback in advance.
Thanks for any feedback in advance.
March 27th, 2013 at 1:18:38 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
March 27th, 2013 at 1:41:46 PM
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9/5 JoB w/STP is a VERY good find for a CET casino. The best STP game at a CET property that I am aware of is 8/5 Bonus w/ Double STP at Rincon (the highest return machine they offer). Horseshoe Council Bluffs also offers 9/6 DDB w/STP (98.98%/99.26% w/STP)
For STP, yeah, basically you add about 0.28% to the return, and for Double STP, you add about 0.5% to the return.
With STP and Double STP, the bonus bets add so little return you still have to look at the main pay tables to determine how good the game really is:
When you lose a unit on either the flush or the full house in a non-wild game, you lose about 1.15% on the base return. Deuces Wild/Joker Poker games are totally different obviously.
Base returns:
JoB
9/6 - 99.54%
9/5 - 98.45%
8/6 - 98.37%
8/5 - 97.30%
7/5 - 96.15%
Bonus
8/5 - 99.17%
7/5 - 98.01% (best STP game in CET Vegas; the Quad at their "All Star Poker" units)
6/5 - 96.87%
DDB
9/6 - 98.98%
9/5 - 97.87%
8/5 - 96.79%
7/5 - 95.71%
DB
9/7/5 - 99.11%
9/6/5 - 97.81%
9/6/4 - 96.38%
9/5/4 - 95.27% (CET loves to set DB games w/STP this low for nickels, seriously)
Ultimate X mainly depends on the base paytables as well, but can vary more because the multipliers can change when various amounts of lines are played. Most Ult X games for nickels at CET properties are usually at 7/5 for DDB. I have never seen a "great" Ult X game at a CET property.
For STP, yeah, basically you add about 0.28% to the return, and for Double STP, you add about 0.5% to the return.
With STP and Double STP, the bonus bets add so little return you still have to look at the main pay tables to determine how good the game really is:
When you lose a unit on either the flush or the full house in a non-wild game, you lose about 1.15% on the base return. Deuces Wild/Joker Poker games are totally different obviously.
Base returns:
JoB
9/6 - 99.54%
9/5 - 98.45%
8/6 - 98.37%
8/5 - 97.30%
7/5 - 96.15%
Bonus
8/5 - 99.17%
7/5 - 98.01% (best STP game in CET Vegas; the Quad at their "All Star Poker" units)
6/5 - 96.87%
DDB
9/6 - 98.98%
9/5 - 97.87%
8/5 - 96.79%
7/5 - 95.71%
DB
9/7/5 - 99.11%
9/6/5 - 97.81%
9/6/4 - 96.38%
9/5/4 - 95.27% (CET loves to set DB games w/STP this low for nickels, seriously)
Ultimate X mainly depends on the base paytables as well, but can vary more because the multipliers can change when various amounts of lines are played. Most Ult X games for nickels at CET properties are usually at 7/5 for DDB. I have never seen a "great" Ult X game at a CET property.
March 27th, 2013 at 3:16:39 PM
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It's very rare to find an STP game with the best possible paytable. In fact, the only one I know of in Vegas that has it is Gold Coast. (Some Midwest casinos have it). I've played it a lot and it is streaky. I hit two royals there in 15 minutes (playing 5 play). I also sat next to a guy who got a dealt 4oaK with a 10x multiplier. (7500 credits on the bad DDB paytable he was playing).
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
March 27th, 2013 at 3:29:49 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
March 27th, 2013 at 3:35:30 PM
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Quote: teddysIt's very rare to find an STP game with the best possible paytable. In fact, the only one I know of in Vegas that has it is Gold Coast.
South Point has 8/5 Bonus with Double STP (99.67%), a few casinos in Vegas have 8/5 Bonus with STP (not so special 99.44%). But yeah Gold Coast is the only one that I know in Vegas that has 9/6 JoB STP (99.82%), along with its sister casino Blue Chip in Indiana.
http://www.vpfree2.com/casino/south-point-hotel-casino-spa
March 27th, 2013 at 3:39:41 PM
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True but again it is very rarely the best game in the casino. South Point has 99.73 Deuces in 50-play nickels which is a superb game (often full). They also have Good Times Pay with the good paytable and DDB quick quads with the good paytable (Dancer plays those).Quote: tringlomaneSouth Point has 8/5 Bonus with Double STP (99.67%), a few casinos in Vegas have 8/5 Bonus with STP (not so special 99.44%). But yeah Gold Coast is the only one that I know in Vegas that has 9/6 JoB STP (99.82%), along with its sister casino Blue Chip in Indiana.
http://www.vpfree2.com/casino/south-point-hotel-casino-spa
I just played that Blue Chip machine. Hit a royal and only made a couple hundred bucks. Hate it when that happens.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
March 27th, 2013 at 3:56:11 PM
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Quote: teddys
I just played that Blue Chip machine. Hit a royal and only made a couple hundred bucks. Hate it when that happens.
I've never hit a Royal on quarters in my life, so I can't feel too sorry for you. :P But I also live in St. Louis and much of my quarter play is severely limited to that machine and Tunica mostly...playing one line at a time. :( Maybe I have played one Royal cycle's worth of quarter play lifetime. Records aren't my forte though believe it or not.
And I didn't mean to insinuate playing 8/5 Bonus Double STP at South Point, just that it's Vegas's next best STP option. I find Double STP very addicting though; I like playing it a lot more than regular STP.
March 27th, 2013 at 5:06:38 PM
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I have a dumb question... I never play slots so I don't know the terminology but I always see it posted here. Anyway what does 9/6 or 9/5 or 8/6 etc mean? I figure it has something to do with the payouts but I'm in the dark. It's only taken me about a year to finally ask :)
March 27th, 2013 at 5:12:39 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
March 27th, 2013 at 5:55:59 PM
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I always find it funny how videopoker.com site always says in contests you would have won $X if you played this in quarters in the casino, when they may not even exist anywhere with those pay tables.
I am a robot.
March 27th, 2013 at 6:01:04 PM
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Quote: tringlomaneI've never hit a Royal on quarters in my life, so I can't feel too sorry for you.
Quote:
Well I hear you there, I have been consistently playing for the past five years, but mainly at the quarter level for the last year and half. To be honest, it hasn't even been close, maybe once or twice I was dealt 4 to a royal, but no more than that.
March 27th, 2013 at 6:02:58 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
March 27th, 2013 at 6:49:58 PM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesYes, its based on the pay schedule.
So what does the 9/6 part actually mean?
March 27th, 2013 at 6:56:09 PM
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Quote: BeardgoatSo what does the 9/6 part actually mean?
A Full House pays 9 times your bet, and a Flush pays 6 times your bet. In most non-wild-card games, it is the Full House and Flush prizes that are adjusted to increase or decrease the return.
March 27th, 2013 at 8:56:44 PM
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For Super Times Pay, multiply the base game's return by 361/360 to determine the STP return.
For Double Super Times Pay, multiply the base game's return by 3163/3150 and then add 17056/(combin(ds,5)*7) where ds is the deck size of the game (53 for Joker Poker, 52 for all others).
For Ultimate X, the best paytables are those which are one notch lower than "full-pay" paytables:
For Double Super Times Pay, multiply the base game's return by 3163/3150 and then add 17056/(combin(ds,5)*7) where ds is the deck size of the game (53 for Joker Poker, 52 for all others).
For Ultimate X, the best paytables are those which are one notch lower than "full-pay" paytables:
| Paytable and Game | Standard Return | 10-Hand Ultimate X Return |
|---|---|---|
| 8/6 Jacks or Better | 98.3927% | 99.4220% |
| 8/6 Bonus Deluxe | 98.4928% | 99.7022% |
| 7/5 Bonus Poker | 98.0147% | 99.4034% |
| 9/6/5 Double Bonus | 97.8062% | 99.0359% |
| 9/6 Double Double Bonus | 98.9808% | 99.8663% |
| 25/15/9/4/4/3 Deuces Wild | 98.9131% | 99.4362% |
| 17/5 Joker Poker | 98.0854% | 99.0445% |
March 29th, 2013 at 1:06:19 AM
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You also need to look at variance -- looking at the expected return without realizing the huge increase in variance is a fool's errand.
In STP, you pay a sum certain amount for a sum uncertain multipler in addition to the dealt hand effect (magnified via the co-variance in n-Play). That means you lose in a very predictable fashion without hitting a dealt hand on a meaningful multiplier, i.e. 10X on a dealt royal. You will never see people commenting about this "leakage" of expectations on deposit waiting for you to hit it. Btw, the odds of a flopped RF is about 1 in 650,000 BEFORE adjusting for the odds of ALSO hitting the 10X (to go along with your dealt RF). (A) In the meanwhile, that extra sum certain payment is bleeding you dry.
Ultimate X is where you also pay a sum certain amount for sum uncertain multipliers. Same concept as STP except here you pay double the regular amount and YOU have more control over the randomness of the multipliers. So ASK YOURSELF, what are the odds of a dealt Full House followed by a dealt Royal Flush? The reason I bring this up is a FH gives you a 12X multiplier so that your next hand, being the dealt RF, gets multiplied 12X for EACH F*CKING line!
The return or payback is what it is, but you need to understand to realize those FULL returns, you need hit really rare hands. That is why you need to look at the variance, because the huge variance gives you insights on these super rare hands like a dealt FH followed by a dealt RF.
(A) I remember reading the paytable in one Double STP (in quarter denomination), a dealt RF paid $20,000 because someone hit it at my local casino. Talk about positive variance.
In STP, you pay a sum certain amount for a sum uncertain multipler in addition to the dealt hand effect (magnified via the co-variance in n-Play). That means you lose in a very predictable fashion without hitting a dealt hand on a meaningful multiplier, i.e. 10X on a dealt royal. You will never see people commenting about this "leakage" of expectations on deposit waiting for you to hit it. Btw, the odds of a flopped RF is about 1 in 650,000 BEFORE adjusting for the odds of ALSO hitting the 10X (to go along with your dealt RF). (A) In the meanwhile, that extra sum certain payment is bleeding you dry.
Ultimate X is where you also pay a sum certain amount for sum uncertain multipliers. Same concept as STP except here you pay double the regular amount and YOU have more control over the randomness of the multipliers. So ASK YOURSELF, what are the odds of a dealt Full House followed by a dealt Royal Flush? The reason I bring this up is a FH gives you a 12X multiplier so that your next hand, being the dealt RF, gets multiplied 12X for EACH F*CKING line!
The return or payback is what it is, but you need to understand to realize those FULL returns, you need hit really rare hands. That is why you need to look at the variance, because the huge variance gives you insights on these super rare hands like a dealt FH followed by a dealt RF.
(A) I remember reading the paytable in one Double STP (in quarter denomination), a dealt RF paid $20,000 because someone hit it at my local casino. Talk about positive variance.
March 29th, 2013 at 5:23:26 AM
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I would suggest you start at the Wizard's other site, wizardofodds.com, and check out the extensive section on video poker. It will tell you most everything you need to get started in the arcane subject of video poker terminology.
March 29th, 2013 at 5:42:00 PM
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I respectfully differ about the increased variance of STP. You are only increasing your bet 1/5 (20%), which is a nice price for a higher return and MUCH more of a fun game. You do not need to get a flopped royal with a 10x to see the increased benefit -- that is a very small percentage of the overall return of STP. I saw a guy get a dealt 4oaK with a 10x the other day, and I've gotten a royal with an 8x. (Okay, it didn't pay, but I got it).
I don't play Ultimate X because of the increased variance you mentioned, unless I'm scrounging multipliers. I also find Multistrike to be a fun game, although you DO need to get royals on the 2x, 4x and 8x lines occasionally to see the return in that game.
I don't play Ultimate X because of the increased variance you mentioned, unless I'm scrounging multipliers. I also find Multistrike to be a fun game, although you DO need to get royals on the 2x, 4x and 8x lines occasionally to see the return in that game.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
March 29th, 2013 at 7:30:08 PM
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Quote: teddysI respectfully differ about the increased variance of STP. You are only increasing your bet 1/5 (20%), which is a nice price for a higher return and MUCH more of a fun game. You do not need to get a flopped royal with a 10x to see the increased benefit -- that is a very small percentage of the overall return of STP. I saw a guy get a dealt 4oaK with a 10x the other day, and I've gotten a royal with an 8x. (Okay, it didn't pay, but I got it).
What does that mean? you got the 8X Royal on videopoker.com? :( And generally speaking, I agree, as long as you get a reasonable fair share of multiplier hands, you'll do ok. On Double STP it's rougher though because a dealt Royal (1 in 649,740) with ANY deal multiplier (1 in 15) forces the game to give a 20X multiplier on the dealt Royal with a deal multiplier (1 in 9.74M). This forced rule is a little over 0.1% of the game's return, iirc.
April 1st, 2013 at 11:49:25 PM
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Quote: teddysI respectfully differ about the increased variance of STP. You are only increasing your bet 1/5 (20%), which is a nice price for a higher return and MUCH more of a fun game. You do not need to get a flopped royal with a 10x to see the increased benefit -- that is a very small percentage of the overall return of STP. I saw a guy get a dealt 4oaK with a 10x the other day, and I've gotten a royal with an 8x. (Okay, it didn't pay, but I got it).
teddys, you have a history of saying REALLY, REALLY dumb things. Here's what WOO stated on his STP page:
"Based on the actual multiplier probabilities, the Super Times Pay feature increases the standard deviation by 51%, compared to not paying for it. Compare that to an increase of 100% by just doubling the bet size on a standard video poker game." source: https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/tables/super-times-pay/
The extra one coin (i.e. the sum certain extra coin) adds 51% to the standard deviation. Those are WOO's words, not mine. There's a reason why the WOO makes the comparison to doubling the bet size for a reason -- the rest of us get WOO's point, the marginal increase in the standard deviation is HUGE or MASSIVE.
April 2nd, 2013 at 8:05:46 AM
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[redacted]
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
April 2nd, 2013 at 7:46:45 PM
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Quote: teddysI said respectfully differ. There's no need to come back with that insult. I know of that Wizard quote and actually that's what I was thinking of, but I didn't bother to quote it. The fact of the matter is that while variance is increased, a $1.50*3 STP game will still have less variance that a $1.00 single line game with the same paytable -- and be much more fun.
I'm assuming you mean 3-play quarter STP games has less variance than a 1-line dollar game? The way this is written, it's a bit unclear. And this is true in terms of money I believe, but with the multiplier, I really dunno how to easily calculate multi-line SD's for STP.
And I would give Ardent $20 if he could make 100 consecutive useful posts without condescending anyone in the process. He can easily do the first part, but I'm not sure if he has yet to make a post without the second part.
April 3rd, 2013 at 2:27:27 PM
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Quote: teddysI said respectfully differ. There's no need to come back with that insult. I know of that Wizard quote and actually that's what I was thinking of, but I didn't bother to quote it. The fact of the matter is that while variance is increased, a $1.50*3 STP game will still have less variance that a $1.00 single line game with the same paytable -- and be much more fun.
What insult? Do you NOT have a history of saying really, really dumb things?
I was simply making my case.
April 4th, 2013 at 1:52:07 PM
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Quote: Ardent1
What insult? Do you NOT have a history of saying really, really dumb things?
I was simply making my case.
Argue the point, not the poster. If you keep posting in that sort of manner, you'll have a really short history of posting on this Forum.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
