Pai Gow Poker, House Way

If the House has:

Kc
Ks
Kh
Ah
Jh
6h
Joker

would the house play:

A*
KKKJ6

OR

KK
AKJ6* Flush

The house would almost always play the flush with a pair of Kings up.
It's the strongest 5-card side (in this case the flush) that can field a pair for the top, over all other hands. The bonus, if the player had this hand, would pay on the full house.

It looks like the Atlantic City casinos' house ways specifically refer to the full house rule in this case. I think that would put the Aces up, with three kings down. Barona's house way has an exception for when all 7 cards can be used, and that clearly would put the kings up with a flush down. The house ways from Vegas casinos that are available on the Odds site don't seem to address this situation at all. I'm sure Dan is right about how they'd play the hand.

The only reason why I would see them playing A* top is because that guarantees the house does not lose.

If the house way would be:

KK
AKJ6* flush

what if the hand was:

AJ6222*

would they play

22
AJ62* flush

Quote: minnesotajoe

The only reason why I would see them playing A* top is because that guarantees the house does not lose.

If the house way would be:

KK
AKJ6* flush

what if the hand was:

AJ6222*

would they play

22
AJ62* flush

There's a list of various house rules here. The houses that always play the full house rule (Atlantic City) would play AA/222xx. The houses that always play 5 card "complete" hands with a pair up (Barona, apparently Las Vegas) would play 22/flush.

Quote: rdw4potus

It looks like the Atlantic City casinos' house ways specifically refer to the full house rule in this case. I think that would put the Aces up, with three kings down. Barona's house way has an exception for when all 7 cards can be used, and that clearly would put the kings up with a flush down. The house ways from Vegas casinos that are available on the Odds site don't seem to address this situation at all. I'm sure Dan is right about how they'd play the hand.

Thanks. Note that because a lot of house ways are designed to be so easy for the dealer to deal, that they don't always break out rare hand types, like "flush or straight with full house," (which can ony be formed with the joker),
- or have an overriding rule of "flush or straight with a pair top, always play" - a rule that should be included, but not always, as you want a "flush lock" on the 5-card side if you can field a pair for the top. A dealer facing players will always pick up wins from all player straights, three of a kinds and lesser flushes with no top.
This hand is so rare, and either play so strong, that it would hurt the house way little to simplify the rule to "full house: always play as full house, with pair on top."

Quote: Paigowdan

This hand is so rare, and either play so strong, that it would hurt the house way little to simplify the rule to "full house: always play as full house, with pair on top."

Not the exact hand, but one I was dealt one time was: Joker,2c,3c,4c,Ac,3s,3d.

one set: Ac,2c,3c,4c,Joker HIGH; 3s,3d LOW
other set: 3s,3d,3c,2c,4c HIGH; Ac, Joker LOW

The house way on THAT hand was the other set, since A-A was the low. I set it that way, as I learned all but one of the Aces was out. If I had set it the other way, I would have pushed, since the dealer had two pair. Nice bonus though.

That is SOME hand, an A-5 straight flush in clubs with a pair of 3's for the top. WOW....
The way to play it is straight flush with a pair of 3's, with the SF lock on the bottom, instead of trip 3's with the AA lock on top.
Both settings are just monsters, again both at 80% EV, no setting - either way - is "wrong."

Wong says that the best play with a full house or flush with pairs is to play the flush with 10's or better on top, else play the full house split, as you will ALWAYS have either a pair of Aces on top, or trip aces bottom.

For the house dealer or banker facing many opponents, the best play is to play the flush bottom with any pair top, as facing many players you'll beat many trips and straights and lower flushes.
For a non-banking player, who only plays head on one-to-one, play the top aces pair on top or the top trip aces on bottom, but some houses (mainly AC) use the "just split the full house" set.

Quote: Paigowdan

That is SOME hand, an A-5 straight flush in clubs with a pair of 3's for the top. WOW....

Yeah, it was. I'm pretty fast when it comes to setting hands. I prefer to play two hands at once (when banking is not an option or another player is playing too much to bank against), and I usually set both hands faster than the average player can set one. Most dealers ask if I'm a dealer, and I say that I'm not...

Anyways, I saw the straight flush instantly, then saw the threes. It took me a bit to decide how to set the hand, until I opted for AA in the low. I agree, if I had 10s or higher, I would have played it that way, and as it turned out, I made the right choice.

The only hand I've had any stronger was a long time ago I got 4 5s with KK up.

Ahh..but the straight flush paid really well on the bonus, more so than quads. Just LOVE getting an envy hand....

Sorry to revive a really old thread, but had a question on house way and couldn't find the answer in a search...

If the house (very unluckily) has Four of a Kind with a Straight and/or Flush (for example, Ac, Ad, Ah, Joker, Qh, 9h, 3h), obviously the house would split the aces, but should the house be seeking to preserve the Straight and/or Flush? Is this one of those things where I should be using the Three-of-a-kind rule?

Unless the house had play any pair+(straight+) rule, they would see the four Aces and know it has to make a low hand of P(A). Then it would seem quixotic to set a pair of aces in the high hand when the same low hand can be formed that creates a flush.

A similar argument would reasonably apply to hands such as Ac 2c 2d 2h 3c 4c 5c (though interestingly with a Joker A22234$ it's the full house discussion).

As had been said any house way gives up a little bit from optimal play; they already have 2 2.5% commission and winning ties, so personally I'd prefer they kept to a simple House Way and didn't bother with some of the exceptions. However, casinos being what they are, want to eek out more profit. It's a shame the "most liberal" House-Way isn't used as an advertising gimmick, rather like there used to be in one down-town casino for Blackjack many years ago. Technically there's a UK House-Way, but the game isn't played here any-more.

Quote: wschmrdr

Sorry to revive a really old thread, but had a question on house way and couldn't find the answer in a search...

If the house (very unluckily) has Four of a Kind with a Straight and/or Flush (for example, Ac, Ad, Ah, Joker, Qh, 9h, 3h), obviously the house would split the aces, but should the house be seeking to preserve the Straight and/or Flush? Is this one of those things where I should be using the Three-of-a-kind rule?

Since that could only happen using the joker (therefore quad aces), the hand would be set as either a straight or flush down, and a pair of aces up.

Quote: wschmrdr

Sorry to revive a really old thread, but had a question on house way and couldn't find the answer in a search...

If the house (very unluckily) has Four of a Kind with a Straight and/or Flush (for example, Ac, Ad, Ah, Joker, Qh, 9h, 3h), obviously the house would split the aces, but should the house be seeking to preserve the Straight and/or Flush? Is this one of those things where I should be using the Three-of-a-kind rule?

As Deucekies indicated, the only way possible for a PGP hand to have Four of a Kind and a Straight or Flush is to have 3 natural Aces and the Joker. A pair of Aces would always go in the Low Hand and the Joker and corresponding Ace would be played in the High Hand to make the Straight or Flush. There is no reason to break up the Straight or Flush, leaving only Ace high in the Low.

Quote: Deucekies

Since that could only happen using the joker (therefore quad aces), the hand would be set as either a straight or flush down, and a pair of aces up.

+1.
Why set AA/AAxxx when it can be set AA/(flush)

Quote: Paigowdan

Why set AA/AAxxx when it can be set AA/(flush)

This is what good computer programming is all about, essentially a computer is silly and only does what it's told. House Way is a defined set of rules how to set the hands and most of them say with Four Aces to set P(A)/P(A). Few of them will explicitly state look for AA/(Flush/straight) first.

I have had situations where the specifications say something stupid, normally one questions whether, in this case, setting AA/(F/St) is allowed. If the specifications weren't fixed, then technically, since the rules state this, you must put AA/AA. (This may sound farcical but this shows the level of thought required when creating specifications, especially if the programming is done elsewhere. Also if one didn't understand the game and was programming it, one might just set the hands and, to make sure the High hand remained P(A), so put the Joker in the Low hand.)

Back to the real life of casinos, in practice there should be an unwritten rule that the house doesn't have to do anything that is quixotic. Thus they would be allowed to set AA/(F/St) if they saw it, so it's in their interest to put the Joker in the High hand where possible (a similar argument applies to AA$xxxx).

I have to note and +1 charlie here. One look at the House ways at the WoO, and you can see the near-laughable stumbling blocks presented. A lot of the fluff in writing these House Ways can be removed with a little thinking. And the Dealers have an easy-to-read set of Way-Rules. Of course, with simpler rules, the Dealer might have to think, as presented in the posts above.

And of course every House wants their own unique 'Way-Rules'.

(EDIT) Consider these hands
Five Aces + Pair
Five Aces
Quad + Triple
Quad + Pair
Quads
Str-Fl + Pair
Flush + Pair
Straight + Pair
Full House + Pair
Full House
Triple + Triple
Three Pairs
Str-Fl
Flush
Straight
Triple
Two Pairs
One pair
Nada

Anything less and you're missing some ways.