Table Games Dealers School

I attended a session last night hosted by Northampton Community College in Bethlehem, PA regarding their Table Games Dealer School curricula (and they did a very nice job with their presentation). The first course requirement is a Casino 101/Blackjack course--and then you select a course dealing with one of the other games; for some reason poker is held out as a separate item--poker dealers and table games dealers are mutually exclusive.

Apparently for PA casinos, you have to be fluent in blackjack plus one other game.

Since the school is just down the street from the Sands and located in between Mohegan Sun-Pocono Downs and Mount Airy to the north and all of the Philadelphia casinos to the south, the entire curricula is reasonably geared towards Pennsylvania requirements. For licensure in PA, a dealer has to pass more scrutiny than anything I have ever seen.

So I'm probably 80% in; and being a middle aged white guy searching for a career change (and things aren't going really well in this regard), this might be a perfect either next step forward or interim occupation. Only time will tell.

I came away with a couple of questions that they really couldn't answer:

1. Are the Dealer's Licenses reciprocal in other states (if I get one in PA, will be be recognized in DE)? FWIW I'm trying to find the DE requirements and am having a hard time finding out what they are.
2. I keep reading/hearing the full time income for a table games dealer is $40k--how realistic is this number and where did it come from? Since the lion's share of income comes from tokes, there has to be a regional component somewhere. I find it hard to believe that the tipping in PHL is equivalent to the tipping in Scranton.
3. They kept saying that after 6 months of being a dealer, one is qualified to move on to management. Is this notion universal to all casinos? And what would be a logical career path for one w/MBA-Ops Mgmt (mid-upper mgmt experience in transportation/residential construction industries)?
4. They said that one cannot play in PA casinos if one has a PA license? Does this hold true to the internet horse ADW accounts/wagering? Is this restriction universal?
5. Since I'll never learn/understand craps (and don't particularly care to) what's the best second game to learn?
6. What about dealing on cruise ships? I recall reading some threads about dealing, etc. but can't quite recall anything being said about dealing on cruise ships. What's that lifestyle like?

As an aside, when Northampton Community College first starting having these sessions, they would get 50-75 people to attend...now they are happy to get 7-10.

Quote: Niblick

I attended a session last night hosted by Northampton Community College in Bethlehem, PA regarding their Table Games Dealer School curricula (and they did a very nice job with their presentation). The first course requirement is a Casino 101/Blackjack course--and then you select a course dealing with one of the other games; for some reason poker is held out as a separate item--poker dealers and table games dealers are mutually exclusive.

Apparently for PA casinos, you have to be fluent in blackjack plus one other game.

Since the school is just down the street from the Sands and located in between Mohegan Sun-Pocono Downs and Mount Airy to the north and all of the Philadelphia casinos to the south, the entire curricula is reasonably geared towards Pennsylvania requirements. For licensure in PA, a dealer has to pass more scrutiny than anything I have ever seen.

So I'm probably 80% in; and being a middle aged white guy searching for a career change (and things aren't going really well in this regard), this might be a perfect either next step forward or interim occupation. Only time will tell.

I came away with a couple of questions that they really couldn't answer:

1. Are the Dealer's Licenses reciprocal in other states (if I get one in PA, will be be recognized in DE)? FWIW I'm trying to find the DE requirements and am having a hard time finding out what they are.
2. I keep reading/hearing the full time income for a table games dealer is $40k--how realistic is this number and where did it come from? Since the lion's share of income comes from tokes, there has to be a regional component somewhere. I find it hard to believe that the tipping in PHL is equivalent to the tipping in Scranton.
3. They kept saying that after 6 months of being a dealer, one is qualified to move on to management. Is this notion universal to all casinos? And what would be a logical career path for one w/MBA-Ops Mgmt (mid-upper mgmt experience in transportation/residential construction industries)?
4. They said that one cannot play in PA casinos if one has a PA license? Does this hold true to the internet horse ADW accounts/wagering? Is this restriction universal?
5. Since I'll never learn/understand craps (and don't particularly care to) what's the best second game to learn?
6. What about dealing on cruise ships? I recall reading some threads about dealing, etc. but can't quite recall anything being said about dealing on cruise ships. What's that lifestyle like?

As an aside, when Northampton Community College first starting having these sessions, they would get 50-75 people to attend...now they are happy to get 7-10.

3. I have a friend who works at a casino here. Newly minted MBA-Ops Management, newly attained CPSM designation, and is a sr. manager of purchasing for a local casino. I've thought of doing the same when I finish my MBA next fall.
5. I would learn the most complicated poker-based game available, with the idea that the other poker-based games would be easy to add later. I'm guessing that's Pai-gow poker...
6. I have friends whose A Capella group was contracted to perform on a cruise ship. They liked the performing, but the "little things" got to be grinding: nowhere to go, nothing to do in off hours, no mail service.

Quote: rdw4potus

6. I have friends whose A Capella group was contracted to perform on a cruise ship. They liked the performing, but the "little things" got to be grinding: nowhere to go, nothing to do in off hours, no mail service.

I have only been a passenger on cruise ships, so I can only speculate on what it would be like to work on one. My guess is that it would be miserable to be a dealer there. Even more of a grind than on shore, I suspect.

rdw: I don't know how many A Capella groups are on cruise ships these days, but I heard a quartet performing under the name "Wheel House" on the Celebrity Millennium in the Caribbean back in 2009. Those weren't your friends, were they? I think that group was only on the ship for part of the cruise and probably hopped mid-cruise from ship to ship within the cruise line, the way some other entertainers do.

>The first course requirement is a Casino 101/Blackjack course--and then you select a course dealing with one of the other games; >for some reason poker is held out as a separate item--poker dealers and table games dealers are mutually exclusive.
That is usually the case everywhere. A poker dealer's uniform is always different... it has a prominent pocket! Don't ever show up for an audition as a BJ dealer with a shirt pocket. It marks you as ignorant. Most dealers are told: BJ first then what you want second.
Most casinos want BJ plus something anyway.

>Apparently for PA casinos, you have to be fluent in blackjack plus one other game.
I don't know if its the law there but its the general rule everywhere else.

>I came away with a couple of questions that they really couldn't answer:

>1. Are the Dealer's Licenses reciprocal in other states (if I get one in PA, will be be recognized in DE)?
They will NEVER answer for other states. Things can change. You have to contact those other states. Usually the answer is no, but the other state may speed-up your paperwork. Just the same as a Clark County Sheriff's Card will impress other states but not dispense with their own forms.
>2. I keep reading/hearing the full time income for a table games dealer is $40k--how realistic is this number
Hah. Depends what you deal and where you deal and how personable you are. Tokes are usually shared (except for poker) and there is always deadwood that other dealers have to carry and management is always scheduling too many dealers per shift which keeps tokes down. Obviously viewpoints differ. Log onto dealer sites but even there toke rates require some salt. Toke rates at the Venetian on the strip are high, at the some smoke filled locals joints if you leave a tip you have to be prepared for the dealer to faint. Well, not exactly, but you get the idea. Female dealers do better than males. Asians do well right now. Language skills help even if only English is permitted. In 2008 tokes at Tuscany were 80 weekdays/100 Sat+Sun. while at the Venetian they were 175 weekdays and 240 weekends. Now... everyone is hurting.


>3. They kept saying that after 6 months of being a dealer, one is qualified to move on to management.
Yes and after six years as a dealer you may still be waiting to do so.

>4. They said that one cannot play in PA casinos if one has a PA license?
I think that is true in PA. Usually most casinos say that off-duty and out of uniform you can play slots or poker. Some casinos say do your gambling elsewhere. At ALL times, do your drinking elsewhere. ALL times.

>5. Since I'll never learn/understand craps (and don't particularly care to) what's the best second game to learn?
Craps is the most fun to learn, requires practice to stay proficient and the demand is variable. You just might like it. Play it online for awhile and see. They play for real for awhile. Its NOT brain surgery. No one dies. Your background is just fine for it. You don't need no fancy practice kit, just learn to drop cut and size into chips correctly and learn basic arithmetic then get lots of experience.

>6. What about dealing on cruise ships?
One woman did it for the travel, not the money. It was sort of exciting for her and she wanted to travel while young. A few male dealers have done for the sex in exotic ports, not on ship. Remember legally you are a seaman on a foreign flag vessel. Crew accommodations are usually horrendously cramped. Anything not locked up belongs to the finder. Day cruises out of South Carolina on Moss Marine boats are prime gigs. Most cruise ships are longer trips and the casino is just a small part of the package. Don't expect much. I think its Mercury cruises that organize gambling cruises but crew should be seeking an adventure not a staggering income.
>What's that lifestyle like? Sometimes its all that you imagine ... and sometimes is beyond belief. Crew accomodations ashore can be horendous to non-existent. Often you have to arrange your own crew housing during turnarounds and re-fitting. If you do a cruise ship for travel, talk to some yachties first. Some love being maids on luxury yachts because they visit exotic ports and their salary just piles up in the bank. Some yacht crews wind up dead in foreign ports (drugs, accidents, etc). Don't expect a cruise ship to give you shore leave, you are legally a seaman, not an entertainer. Remember at all times that foreign crews and foreign flags often means that rape is not considered a crime. Just as female passengers are at risk at times, so are female crew members. Its a cultural thing and a monetary thing also. If a female makes an accusation, the male keeps his job even if they are co-workers!

rdwpotus,Doc,FleaStiff:

Thank you for the comments--they are truly helpful.

FleaStiff, AZDuffman a while back wrote a very informative blog about his experience at a dealer's school (to which we both commented). My impression is that you are in the industry (in Las Vegas?) so you speak from experience...so where do you think this $40k number came from?

It strikes me, too, that casinos on the east coast (except AC) are in an employment growth mode and so it may be easier to get into management than possibly LV/AC; and from what we were told last night, casinos hire almost exclusively from within. Not sure if this is fact or fiction.

And isn't dealing craps a young man's game (I ask this because you may have changed my thinking)? I follow that great philosopher, Satchell Paige's treatment of age; "Age is mind over matter...if you don't mind, it don't matter." But that said, I don't think it prudent to start training to compete in an Olympic marathon at age 58.

And FS, thanks again for taking the time you took to respond; your effort is appreciated.

It's true that casino employees can't play in PA.

Quote: Niblick

where do you think this $40k number came from?

From someone who was trying to sell you something.

Quote: Mosca

It's true that casino employees can't play in PA.

To be clear, that's anywhere in PA? A Rivers employee can't play at the Sugar House?

Quote: Niblick

So I'm probably 80% in; and being a middle aged white guy searching for a career change (and things aren't going really well in this regard), this might be a perfect either next step forward or interim occupation. Only time will tell.

Unfortunately being a white guy counts against you. You will stand a much better chance of getting hired if you are Asian, or from another country like Kenya, Ethiopia, or China.
However, take heart, there's something you can do to increase your chance of getting hired. You can state on your job application that you're part American Indian. It will be tough for anyone to prove that you're not, unless you have very curly hair. If so, then you can try another nationality. Implying that you're part of the minority will help. Some kind of disability would also help improve the odds.


I know this sounds bad, but these days, being a white guy is going to cost you, as long as the liberals and progressives are running things. Employers are looking for tax breaks, especially casinos.


Good Luck.

Quote: Niblick

But that said, I don't think it prudent to start training to compete in an Olympic marathon at age 58.

Why not? Fauja Singh started running marathons at age 89 and finished the Toronto marathon last week at the spry age of 100.

Right. Crazy law.
Wouldn't fly in Nevada, but in PA that is the law.

Casinos have various hiring practices. SouthPoint NEVER advertises and casino position. Personal contacts ONLY. In the "old" days casino personnel did the hiring and firing, HR did the paperwork. SouthPoint tries to stick to that as much as possible.

Now, you see alot of dealer jobs on websites. Some are for "show". Some are real openings.

Breakin joints in Vegas are always low tokes.

As for young mans game? One retiree from the cops went from Swat Squad to Swatting Fleas. He was pushing 50. However young is always better. And female is always better, but not all dealers are Asian females.

Don't learn carney games... if they have you deal one, they will put you on it "COLD" or else one night's warning.
Knowing Bacc won't hurt but usually you will be moved from BJ to Bacc whenever they want irrespective of your knowing it. It just helps to know it. The main thing is once you SAY it, then STAY it. Do NOT let skills go rusty. Deal BJ, but go home using the license plate number on the car ahead to calculate payouts on Place Bets. Deal the stupid Big Six wheel if thats what they tell you to do, but drive home calculating horn bet payoffs for weird bets. After you've ironed your BJ shirt, use the ironing board to pay off bets from two working stacks. Once you are in their computer as having a game skill.... you darn well better have it when they suddenly say to you... if fifteen minutes you are at Craps table 2, Stick. So whenever you are watching tv at home, on the commercials you go thru your stick patter for each number in reverse order. Stay sharp.

Whatever scheduling system your employer uses, it will have glitches and if "The Pencil" says you are on "X" next, then that is where you are going to be, sink or swim.

Quote: Niblick

It strikes me, too, that casinos on the east coast (except AC) are in an employment growth mode

It shouldn't surprise you.

Those are stil new casinos, still trying to find good dealers for all their shifts. The last time I was at the Sands, (admitedly about 4 months ago), they still had a good portion of their table games closed, on a Saturday, while the other tables were jam-packed. There can be only one reason for that....

It doesn't surprise me that the requirement is to know BJ plus one other game. Look at the pits in any casino in the USA, and you'll see more BJ tables than any other. Significantly more.

What's the best second game to learn? Frankly, from a strictly technical / procedural point of view, most other card games are the same as BJ. You deal, you allow the player to make some sort of decision, then you check the hands to see who won, then you pay even money. Once you're proficient at BJ, it should be easy to learn the other games.

Therefore, I'd recommend either Roulette or Craps for your second game. Both are math heavy, but both have their own set of mental tricks to make the math easier to handle. Roulette may be better for a rookie, because roulette players are not the same kind of fast-paced action junkies that craps players are.

Don't bother learning the Asian games right away, unless you're Asian.

New casinos can only hire licensed dealers and sometimes those Gambling Commission paper-shufflers are more lazy than it was ever imagined but even if the casino does have licensed dealers available to hire, it may want to fine-tune its work force as the gamblers discover which niches actually show up and when rather than what all those MBA types predicted would show up.

Sorry if this is long, those uninterested skip.

Quote: Niblick

I attended a session last night hosted by Northampton Community College in Bethlehem, PA regarding their Table Games Dealer School curricula (and they did a very nice job with their presentation). The first course requirement is a Casino 101/Blackjack course--and then you select a course dealing with one of the other games; for some reason poker is held out as a separate item--poker dealers and table games dealers are mutually exclusive.

Poker is a "seperate entity" in all but maybe the smallest casinos, and by small I mean places you can count the tables on one hand. A few reasons for this:

1. Poker is so different than other games. As a poker dealer you will need to know Hold'em, Stud, Omaha, and others. That is 4 games there alone. Better to segregate by skill level.
2. Poker dealers almost always "go for their own" except in tourneys. Hard to mix toke systems.
3. Poker is player v player and not player v house.

If you want to deal poker I will tell you what our instructior told us. Bear in mind he wanted to make us feel better about learning craps. He said poker ebbs and flows in popularity so months on the extra board become 60 hours weeks then back again. Secondly, poker pigeonholes you. You will not interact or be seen by pit bosses. You will not learn the games a pit boss needs to know. There are more pit bosses than room managers. OTOH, you sit playing poker, only game where you do that all the time so if that is a factor consider it.

Quote:

Apparently for PA casinos, you have to be fluent in blackjack plus one other game.

Depends on the house. Rivers wanted BJ/Rolutte and carnival games OR craps alone. Over time you can and should learn as many as you can.

Quote:

For licensure in PA, a dealer has to pass more scrutiny than anything I have ever seen.

PM if you want details, I can't put some of what I heard on a public board.

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So I'm probably 80% in; and being a middle aged white guy searching for a career change

Join the club, meetings are every third tuesday of the month at Panera Bread. rotflmao

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Are the Dealer's Licenses reciprocal in other states (if I get one in PA, will be be recognized in DE)? FWIW I'm trying to find the DE requirements and am having a hard time finding out what they are.

No. But having your PA license will make the process go better. Lose it for misconduct and you will never deal in the USA again. Ever.

Quote:

I keep reading/hearing the full time income for a table games dealer is $40k--how realistic is this number and where did it come from? Since the lion's share of income comes from tokes, there has to be a regional component somewhere. I find it hard to believe that the tipping in PHL is equivalent to the tipping in Scranton.

On the date of interviewing for school the execs at Rivers said they wanted to target a toke rate of $20 per hour, giving that $40K. I used to get the toke rate daily. Last year the rate was $12-19 depending on the day, so they were not there then.

Quote:

They said that one cannot play in PA casinos if one has a PA license? Does this hold true to the internet horse ADW accounts/wagering? Is this restriction universal?

Yes, state says you cannot play a penny slot. Some houses are tighter. At Rivers, and I just got this info last night, employees cannot BRING THE NICKEL INTO THE CASINO! Yes, no money inside, period. EDR is run on a cashless system. Must come in and leave with empty pockets.

Quote:

Since I'll never learn/understand craps (and don't particularly care to) what's the best second game to learn?

Consider learning it. Craps dealers are more in-demand. And they walk with a swagger because they know they are the best in the place. I'd learn BJ if you don't want to do craps. BJ has most tables of the others.

Quote:

As an aside, when Northampton Community College first starting having these sessions, they would get 50-75 people to attend...now they are happy to get 7-10.

In WPA we were told the colleges would have classes. Dunno if they do or not but Rivers seems to do school 2-3xs per year.

As someone else said, see my blog for a day-by-day account of what to expect. PM if you want other details.

If Nick is around, I was wondering if he is dealing with these or any similar issues going to Dealer School in Las Vegas.
Just asking. Maybe he has some insight from being a current student.

Quote: AZDuffman

As someone else said, see my blog for a day-by-day account of what to expect. PM if you want other details.

I remembered your blog before I started the thread; lots of real good stuff there.

Seems like I should hop in a car and drive out to WPA but much more than likely, you can expect a PM. There's a lot of good info in both your blog and this thread that I still need to digest before I'll be able to address all this more intelligently. One thing I can tell you, as per your blog, I've been on youtube and am learning how to cut cheques.

Thanks for the time you took to respond.

Schools are different. In Vegas, some claim the cheapest schools (community colleges) are the best. Some schools do teach slightly different payment procedures in craps. All teach to do what the box or floor tell you to do. I think its important to realize that there are curricula out on the web and you can learn some things since most of it is practice.

I'd wish you all luck. Those who are in school and those who hope to be. As things pick up in the industry some of you newly hired BJ and craps dealers will be told to go deal Let It Ride. You've never been taught it, you've never seen how its played. So what. That is what you are scheduled for. You'll do it. If there are a bunch of drunks who have money and want to play Let It Ride the shift manager is going to say Open The Table and a few minutes later you may be the one who does it.

In some casinos paying with inside hand and outside hand varies so craps dealers should never practice with high level chips and low level chips always in one hand but should shift around as if they were on first base or third base.

There will be players who mis-position their chips each and every single play... and never learn. you will learn to deal with these things.

Sometimes it is drunken females that are the absolute worst at splashing their chips into your work area where you have other player's bets set up. And sometimes shot takers will be little old ladies instead of young males. You'll learn to deal with it. In school, just work on the basic skills.

I just signed up/paid for the class Intro to Casino/Blackjack starting November 14 running through December 22. The class is Mon-Th 7PM-11:59PM. The cost was $800.

As per the recommendations from AZDuffman and FleaStiff, I have been diligently practicing cutting cheques and the table riffle shuffle.

Best possible outcome is that I embark on a new career; the worst thing is it will give me part time employment opportunities at retirement age. This whole casino thing is rather new to me but clearly, it is one of the few industries openly supported by state governments.

So now, rather than to continue to fight city hall (the business environment in PA is completely toxic), I'm joining it and going to table games dealer school.

For those who commented on this thread, I want to thank you very much.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Those are stil new casinos, still trying to find good dealers for all their shifts. The last time I was at the Sands, (admitedly about 4 months ago), they still had a good portion of their table games closed, on a Saturday, while the other tables were jam-packed. There can be only one reason for that....

I'm actually not surprised that the classes are empty and nobody wants to be a dealer in PA... especially if you can't play in PA with a PA gaming license.

I always joke that their are only two types of dealers in Tunica, MS; those who are morally opposed to gambling but do it because that's the ONLY job in town, and those who are addicted to gambling. You'll find it's about 60/40, 60% being those who moved to the area just to have Vegas style gambling and free liquor.

That being said, I think nowadays the people most interested in becoming dealers are those who do gamble. Sure there are people who look for jobs and that's what opens up so they take it, but frankly, most dealers like to play too. Maybe they get turned off it after being a casino day in and day out (I know I HATE shopping now, but again I work in retail). But I wouldn't even THINK of becoming a dealer in PA if I couldn't play at another house.

And btw, I TOTALLY get why casinos wouldn't want employees playing in their own... Iowa allows it now, and it sometimes makes me uncomfortable. But not to be able to play at another property in the entire STATE! That's a bit extreme.

Quote: Niblick

I just signed up/paid for the class Intro to Casino/Blackjack starting November 14 running through December 22. The class is Mon-Th 7PM-11:59PM. The cost was $800.

Good luck to you.
IF you are able we would all appreciate a thread that has your running commentary on the experience however your employer would probably not like ANYTHING revealed and there are dangers, so decisions are up to you.

Certainly, you are not chained to Pennsylvania even if you get licensed there and the laws in Pennsylvania regarding dealers may change after a while. Good luck there too.

First things first. Right now... you have to do the class and the homework and see what happens. It is a skill that will never hurt you. And at some cocktail party you may turn out to be quite the entertainer someday.

You paid $800 for BJ? Dang that is a lot. I only paid about $300 for mine. But this is a small dealer school in Las Vegas.

Strikes me as a lot, also. This class is being taught at a community college down the street from the local casino. The price presumably includes cheques, felt, shoe, playing cards. This course is a PA requirement...the next course might be less expensive (at least I hope so).

As a general rule, there is nothing that can be done that PA couldn't complicate...and when one uses the term "complicate" one must starting thinking $$$.

How did you make out in school?

$800 is a lot. Las Vegas is, a Nick said, about $300 for a game, $500 for two, or for craps alone.
Some mentions, to focus on a few things post-schooling and getting/working in a dealing job:

1. In the Las Vegas area, you will have to cut your teeth at a break-in house: low pay, rude players and supervision, and utterly thankless. You should be there for a couple of months at about $25K or $30K. In other areas of the country, I assume you may start out at better places. In ANY location, you'd be foolish to take work home.

2. You are pigeoned-holed to "cards," "dice," and "poker room," although many places now have dice dealers dealing a lot of BJ or Pai Gow. Dice is always in demand, but it is 10 times harder with 10 times the shot-takers, but is NEVER boring except on a dead game. BJ gets boring quickly.

3. Card dealers are expected to know three games: Blackjack, Pai Gow Poker, and Three Card Poker, the mainstays. From there, you can pick up any carnival game (Texas Hold 'em Bonus, Deuces wild, etc.)

4. Dealing and floor supervision (floormen) positions are "job positions," not really "career positions." Don't kid yourself. With a career you have an education and an office; with this job - you have dealer's school and a table, and are fully replaceable. A dealer can be tapped off a game, told to go to the shift office, and be told, "Shawn, we are accusing you of employee theft/sexual harassment/rudeness to customers/being a Catholic Boy on a sunny day, and you are being fired. Security will walk you off the grounds to your car. Thanks, Goodbye." Basically, if you're reliable, friendly, and an efficient dealer, you're "generally" safe, but one customer comment or disagreement, and you might be out.

5. Asian versus non-Asian. This is basically a myth. Hands, honesty, and reliability are what count. However, Asians have a reputation of being reliable and tolerant to the rudeness in the pit; They are less likely to go "Johnny Paycheck" over an incident (of the song "Take this job and shove it")

6. Never be late or absent, except maybe once a year.

7. Never defend yourself "at the scene" in case of an issue in the pit. Say, in response to a floorman's yelling and screaming in your face about something, "Yessir..." and immediately do what he tells you. You will later be called into the shift office, to sign a statement that basically says:
- you had robbed a Bank of America while on break, or
- raped a nun on a dining table in the Buffet area;
- you fully plead "guilty/at fault/fully responsible" for the incident, and will sign a statement to that effect;
- and you will not worry about it, care about, take it seriously, or even take it home.

This is all as part of the posturing that management and supervision does, to keep you on edge or on the straight an narrow, similar in technique to Drill Sargeants/military environments, because...you're handling tons of money and their jobs are on the line because of this and you, - and they want you "scared straight" and buttoned-down fully, in every detail.
At first, it was frightening; then it became humorous. Then it was dropped. After working at a place for a few years, the "scare tactic" shift office shake-downs are dropped, and they all become curteous co-workers who politely remind you that you've used up your sick days, or were dealing BJ a bit too slowly, and you should practice up again, etc. Indeed, we joked about this and the "new dealer initiation" aspect, - as in remodeling the Shift Office in a "Hogan's Hero's/Cambodian Pol Pot Prisoner of War" motif: A spool of bloodied barbed wire on the floor, a naked light bulb dangling and singing from the ceiling, a pair of pliers and a bowl of teeth just sitting on the shift manager's desk, etc....laughter abounds...
I once saw a new dealer get tapped off a game by a dealer who was not the relief dealer, being told "GO TO THE SHIFT OFFICE." She dropped her cards and nearly fainted upon hearing this, in utter panic. New dealers DO get fired in this way, but usually the visit is because of a schedule change, or a missing signature on a toke sign-in sheet, etc., something minor.
So know that this job ain't working at a Pizza Hut....

Edit: As for auditioning:
1. Black slacks, white shirt, shined shoes; tap into the game, CLEAR your hands (show the palms up), greet the customers, focus on dealing. If you make a mistake, but basically dealt well, remain relaxed, NOTIFY the floorman, and DO what the floorman tells you to do to recover, and continue on.
2. Thank the floorman when done, listen to his instructions, and leave and wait for the call/email.
3. If you get the job, you will have to get your first Gaming license for the state/jurisdiction. This is usually done at police station because of finger-printing, with a criminal arrest history form to be filled out. No biggie - unless you have a felony, or a violent misdemeanor (bar fight, etc.)
4. Drug test. Stay off the sh]t.

You left out the best part, Dan. You also get to
deal with the wonderful and ever gracious
general public. So you get it from from both
ends, management and the public. Dealing
is one of the most stressful jobs there is as
far as dealing with the public goes. Its right
up there with being a hairdresser, and their
average burnout rate is 5 years.

Class started on Monday and all suggestions/heads-up made within this thread are spot on.

While I am somewhat astonished at the detail of the protocol (and I really should not have been), everything, and I mean everything, clearly has a logical reason for being done as per instruction--so far, I haven't seen any protocol for protocol's sake. What I mean is that for every slightest nuance, there is a reason that starts with, "Because of this or that" and nothing with "Because I said so." I am happy that the instructor is pretty much all over us to make sure we are doing everything correctly. I keep finding out the hard way that if I vary at all from her very precise instruction, I screw up.

Do it her way, it works; vary in the slightest, it doesn't work and one looks like a fumbling idiot.

The tiniest motion matters.

I am very happy that prior to class starting, I refilled my anti-inflammatory prescription. Sitting is verbotem; class is held standing up (5 hours with 3 breaks). I'm in good physical condition so I'm surprised that this is as physically stressful as it is.

So far, so good.

Its good to have realism.

Surveillance (be it Floormen and PitBosses or be it the EyesInTheSky types) always look for anything "out of the ordinary". If a BJ dealer is told left hand must be flat and he has it vertical, its noted. If a card deck must be held in a certain manner or kept over a certain area of the table that is what they want to see. If MiniBacc commission lammers have to be proved up in a certain place and manner, that is what they want to see even though the money in question is minimal.

If a new dealer must tap in from the left that is what they want to see. No arguments, no questions, no individual styles. Nothing unique. Every single solitary motion that is in the procedures manual and not one single solitary motion that is not in the procedures manual.

Save your arguments for the break room or the office once you've got a job. Even then... the best rule is do what the boss tells you to do.

Sure there are exceptions... one BJ dealer is a midget. He can't tap in on the right shoulder. He can't reach anywhere near that high. So he taps in on the table at the dealers right hip. And you can be sure Surveillance notices it. And makes darn sure that the midget is the ONLY one who ever develops that habit.

A retiring Stick man shows clean hands to the Box. Its not palms vertical and its not palms horizontal as if he were displaying his manicure or recent nail polish. Its perceived by viewers as a friendly departure that just happens to reveal the stickman's clean hands. That doesn't mean the Box is watching but he probably is. Each and every time.

Young lady has a bit of her hairstyle fall in front of her eyes, its clear hands, flip hair away from eyes, and then clear hands again. Surveillance watches carefully for that sort of thing and watches even more carefully for the lack of it.

Quote: FleaStiff

Surveillance (be it Floormen and PitBosses or be it the EyesInTheSky types) always look for anything "out of the ordinary". If a BJ dealer is told left hand must be flat and he has it vertical, its noted. If a card deck must be held in a certain manner or kept over a certain area of the table that is what they want to see.

... No arguments, no questions, no individual styles. Nothing unique. Every single solitary motion that is in the procedures manual and not one single solitary motion that is not in the procedures manual.

That's exactly what we are learning and our instructor is very insistent on it; in another setting, it might be considered overbearing but it this setting, it is relevant and appreciated.

Quote: EvenBob

You left out the best part, Dan. You also get to
deal with the wonderful and ever gracious
general public. So you get it from from both
ends, management and the public. Dealing
is one of the most stressful jobs there is as
far as dealing with the public goes. Its right
up there with being a hairdresser, and their
average burnout rate is 5 years.

This is very true, dealers can get it on all sides, not a piece of cake at all.
Hairdressers are routinely read the riot act if the coif isn't 100% to the customer's satisfaction: "LOOK at what you've DONE to me!! Auuggh!!"

Quote: Niblick

Class started on Monday and all suggestions/heads-up made within this thread are spot on.

Glad to help, funny how worlds apart the advice is so similar. Shows once you get experience you really can go anywere I guess.

Quote:

While I am somewhat astonished at the detail of the protocol (and I really should not have been), everything, and I mean everything, clearly has a logical reason for being done as per instruction--so far, I haven't seen any protocol for protocol's sake. What I mean is that for every slightest nuance, there is a reason that starts with, "Because of this or that" and nothing with "Because I said so." I am happy that the instructor is pretty much all over us to make sure we are doing everything correctly. I keep finding out the hard way that if I vary at all from her very precise instruction, I screw up.

I didn't see what game(s) you are learning, but do learn the procedure. And I hope you have better consistancy than we had. As table games were so new, the instructors we had were good but from a mismash of houses coast to coast. To make matters worse, craps is a game with several "right ways" to do things. For example, we were told when paying the first position to put the payout in the bottom of the outside hand then the lowest value cheques over them. E.G.: you have to pay free-odds of 7:5 on a $5 bet put one red under a stack of whites then drop the red and whites with your outside hand and then pay with your working reds in your inside hand. (Anyone who missed that I will demonstrate at WoV-East in spring :-O ) So we try and do it and then go to the mini-audition and the (different) instructor asks why the hell we are doing that? Throw in the fact that state laws were being written by the day--no kidding, daily updates delivered in class--consistany was nonexistant in most things.

DO practice clapping in and out all day, all the time. It gets to be a habit, and sort-of fun in a weird way.

Do remember "hands, hands, hands." If you are doing BJ you should try to strive that you come so close to the stack you are cutting into that you can put a sheet of paper no more no less between your finger and the cut-into stack. Mabye a small exageration, but try for that. One to five cheques, either hand, with your head turned the other way. With loud music or other distractions. Do all that and you will fly past that part of the audition. Weid side benefit is that there is a certain number of women that just latch on to watching a dealer's handwork.

When I train mc night dealers for the first time I really stress handwork even at that level. I always show how I can cut in while looking the other way and talking to them. Over three years of doing it I have learned handwork is *the* most important part of making the game flow well.

Quote:

So far, so good.

Keep the updates coming. And maybe you can answer a procedure question. Why does the BJ dealer deal from the shoe with one hand for the first two spots? Cards end up face-up anyways, no?

Quote: AZDuffman

And maybe you can answer a procedure question. Why does the BJ dealer deal from the shoe with one hand for the first two spots? Cards end up face-up anyways, no?

I can, but I'm not sure if you're just testing the new guy =p I'll hold my tongue for now... Let me know if that's not the case and you just want to know...

Quote: Face

I can, but I'm not sure if you're just testing the new guy =p I'll hold my tongue for now...

Give him a chance or PM me with it, I do seriously want to know. No test.

To avoid claim of thumbacking, a casino joke:


Q: How many casino-employees does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Lets count--1 to change it
1 to watch him when he calls "FLOOR, BULB CHANGE"
2 in survalence to watch from the eye
2 to bring the "fill" of light bulbs in the first place
1 in HR to write the dealer up for changing the bulb with his outside hand
how many more....................................?

Sorry if that is bad, my attempt at relevant humor.

...1 in Facilities to issue the bulb
...2 Security to oversee issue and transport
...2 in TG to review mistake
...I could go on ;)

I'll post here for everyone's benefit. Like everything else, it's game protection. Paying/taking 1&2 with your right hand causes you to reach across your body, exposing the rack and removing spots 6&7 from your field of view. Dealers must always stand as square to the table as possible, eyes as forward as possible.

I think the short answer for every single procedure could be stated as game protection. I was beyond staggered at all the little ins and outs of dealing when I started here, wondering what in the hell rotating the deck during the shuffle could do, or why this had to be that way. Once you know, though, it all makes sense.

FleaStiff had wise words in his post. If it's supposed to be a certain way, make sure you do it exactly that way, regardless of how others do it. If you want to survive as a dealer, it really is "my way or the highway".

Quote: Face

Like everything else, it's game protection. Paying/taking 1&2 with your right hand causes you to reach across your body, exposing the rack and removing spots 6&7 from your field of view. Dealers must always stand as square to the table as possible, eyes as forward as possible.

I think the short answer for every single procedure could be stated as game protection. I was beyond staggered at all the little ins and outs of dealing when I started here, wondering what in the hell rotating the deck during the shuffle could do, or why this had to be that way. Once you know, though, it all makes sense.

NO FAIR!

I would have answered and answered correctly...

Face, you are exactly on point when you say..."beyond staggered at all the little ins and outs."

FWIW I understand that use of right hand for 1 & 2 during the audition means automatic failure. Trying to memorize every move is all but impossible; it seems that if game protection is the dealer's first thought and consideration, one will probably get close to doing the right thing.

The fact is, there isn't (from what I can tell) a single solitary move that a dealer makes that isn't principally based on game protection.

Still, right now, I'm a bit overwhelmed.

Quote: Niblick

Still, right now, I'm a bit overwhelmed.

You will feel overwhelmed for awhile then it all becomes sheer habit... good habits. Blackjack dealers protect their chip tray, so do dice dealers who keep higher value working stacks closest to the Box, who keeps his high value chips close to him.

You will even be taught a procedure for what to do when you need to use a tissue and what to do with the used tissue. Yes, its in the procedures book. Yes, surveillance will indeed be watching you blow your nose.

All this protect your game stuff will keep you from wandering away from your chip tray to get an ashtray at the next table so a player can smoke. (Said to have been that dealers first day on the job... also probably his last day on the job).

You deal, you keep your eyes focused where they should be, you talk your game and you stick to procedures. You'll get the hang of it easy enough.

Quote: Niblick

FWIW I understand that use of right hand for 1 & 2 during the audition means automatic failure. Trying to memorize every move is all but impossible; it seems that if game protection is the dealer's first thought and consideration, one will probably get close to doing the right thing.

Could be, I think we were told in craps class putting the big cheques in the outside hand would be a ticket to try-again-next-time land. I kind of wonder how different procedure has been from Ben Siegel's Flamingo to Frank Rosenthal's Stardust to today.

Quote: AZDuffman

Could be, I think we were told in craps class putting the big cheques in the outside hand would be a ticket to try-again-next-time land.

One poor soul having white chips in one hand and red chips in the other was told to do something with his white hand and is supposed to have replied he was an Indian and didn't have a white hand.

If i can be of any help, please feel free to ask any questions.....and yes I am a 56 yr old craps dealer.

Quote: FleaStiff

One poor soul having white chips in one hand and red chips in the other was told to do something with his white hand and is supposed to have replied he was an Indian and didn't have a white hand.

Heard the story, sounds like an express trip to the "Let it Ride" table. One way.

Duplicate removed

Quote: AZDuffman

I kind of wonder how different procedure has been from Ben Siegel's Flamingo to Frank Rosenthal's Stardust to today.

I wonder the same...

Likewise, I wonder what incidents precipitated the procedural changes.

I would think most changes are precipitated by some sharpie who saw an edge and took advantage of it or by someone who thinks he is saving the house millions from some great caper.

Quote: Niblick

I wonder the same...

Likewise, I wonder what incidents precipitated the procedural changes.

In the book "Super Casino" they state that every procedural rule is a result of an incident. I don't think most were big. But for example, Frank Rosenthal states he once caught a dealer stealing cheques under his wristwatch. So you can see where that would make a "no watch" rule. I doubt you would find many super-big things that happened. In dealer school (mine) they stressed that the person who would grab cheques was an issue but not the one they were most concerned about. A dope like the dude that did the Bellagio Heist last year (real one, not Danny Ocean) will get caught. They had a far bigger concern about being bled day after day.

Any moron can decide to do an armed heist. If he takes mid-value cheques, say green and black, he might even get to cash them in. But the smart thief learns how to steal $100 or so a day, a few cheques at a time. Just don't be so greedy and you are harder to spot. But in the end, they're all greedy.

Sorry to stray so far from the topic, but as a follow up to stealing black chips... one man got greedy. He tried to date a middle-aged cashier who volunteered to be wired. He had found out at an earlier casino that chip auditors just counted boxes of blacks and so he stole real black chips from the back of the draw and replaced them with boxes of counterfeit black chips.

Casinos teach game protection by teaching procedures and making dealers do everything in an open manner, such as calling out "toking up a black" and rapping the table with the edge of the chip and THEN puting it in the toke box. The floor does not acknowledge and may not even be looking ... but its done every time. And even when the dice dealer is correcting an error, he proves it up openly so the box and stick can clearly see his correcting transaction. If surveillance wants to know why the dealer suddenly gave chips to a player .... they can just roll the tape back a few frames and there it is.

Quote: AZDuffman

In the book "Super Casino" they state that every procedural rule is a result of an incident.

Would you recommend reading this book?

So last night, I went to a casino in DE to observe the dealers ply their trade/compare to our teachings...and WOW, what a huge difference. It seemed that they were all about speed with little regard to style. I couldn't believe the difference. Now, in the main, everything they did was probably okay; however, how they handled the cards/cheques along with overall table management (eg. we are taught to declare, "No More Bets" prior to dealing--I didn't hear this once) varied wildly to our instruction.

We've had very specific and precise instruction on how to handle cheques (eg. proving the payout which wasn't done at this casino) and how to handle cheques (eg. sweeping the cards w/right hand following game) and overall table management which they absolutely did not do. Clearly, the emphasis at this particular venue is all about a high per hour rate.

Would you attribute this to:

1. Poor/inconsistent instruction?
2. Casino priority on speed?
3. Casino growth exceeding supply of competent dealers?
4. Low pay precluding supply of competent dealers?
5. General lack of concern from style?

I see this come and go in waves, and at least for here, it's pretty much complacency and burnout. All of these procedures are more or less industry standards, so you should see the same stuff from place to place. If you don't, you know things have reached some level of breaking down.

Dealer does the same thing day in and day out, eventually he gets bored and starts to slack. If the Floor is on his game, he puts an end to it. If the Floor is likewise burntout or having a bad day, it continues. Surveillance should also catch it, but they're people too, and have off days too.

Generally you'll see more of this in stagnant operations, places where there's not much movement through the ranks. Casino work, IMO, is a lot like factory work. It's not as physical, but it's absolutely assembly-line-like repetitive, and getting stuck doing the same thing day in and day out kills people. New Dealers are usually on top of their game, and that tends to spread to others and pick them up. Same goes for new Floors, Pits, and Surv. Sometimes entire shifts get a kick, which can come in the form of training, retraining, or even a pat on the back like a company party. I know me and my guys have been reborn by some good training, where we couldn't wait to get back to work and use what we just learned.

1 - I doubt it's instruction, unless you factor in peoples inability to follow instruction.
2 - I doubt it's speed, since nothing asked it outside of the human ability* (*except for maybe a green dealer's)
3 - Unsure about this one. Could be hiring practices, but all dealers get a ton of training before getting a table. I'd hope no one would allow a failing trainee through.
4 - Maybe, but think it's too sparce to point at as a serious concern.
5 - Probably, for the reasons listed above.

Now I need some help...

Being a systems guy, I try to see/learn things in some sort of pattern...this is not the way my instructor teaches. There is no judgment here, just a statement of fact (she is excellent) So, it is incumbent upon us to find these patterns; but my mind shuts off about 2/3 rd's of the way through class.

This doesn't help (I work from 9AM to 5:30 PM then drive 60 miles; class goes from 7PM to Midnight; then drive 60 miles to home).

Now we are dealing with payouts/conversions; arrangement of cheque stacks on payouts, etc., etc.

What I am looking for are some general rules of thumb regarding cheques (payouts/conversions/protocol; best way to practice) or some source (e.g. book) that deals with the whole cheque issue as it relates to dealers.

Should I be looking/should my visuals default at/to cheque colors? or values? Best and most simple (and maybe too simple) example: On a blackjack payout w/2 red cheques...should I think 3 red cheques pays 2 or $15 pays $10?

Right now I'm suffering from information overload so I'm looking for some guidance so I can KISS.

Thanks in advance for any direction you can offer.

Quote: Niblick

....should I think 3 red cheques pays 2 or $15 pays $10?

3 red cheques pays 2

It doesn't matter if they are red, green or purple. If there are two of them, and he hit BJ on a 3:2 table, give him 3 of the same color. The only exception is when the bank starts running low.

Don't waste time or effort doing unnecessary math or converting colors into dollar amounts needlessly.

Craps dealers have this the worst... a dozen different colors possible and often players make stupid mistakes in stacking chips anyway.
If a bet pays 3:2 and there are two chips out there... makes little difference if they are red, green, black or polka-dotted, just focus on the chips and don't constantly try to covert it into dollars.

Don't waste time with unnecessary math ... you will be doing enough math when it is necessary.

Just remember to keep your high value chips in the center of your tray and make certain players stack chips properly with their higher value chips on the bottom.

Its not brain surgery. Take a deep breath. Relax.

To expand on this, you'll soon learn "standard" payouts.

I.E:
BJ with 2 reds pays 3 reds.
BJ with a single green chip pays 1 green, 2 red and 1 pink.

A $35 bet is 1 green and 2 red. When it hits a BJ, the green pays 1 green, 2 red and 1 pink while the 2 reds pay 3 red. The only mental math you should do is to color up those 5 reds, so you actually pay 2 greens and 1 pink. Ignore the value, just count chips.


A player buying in for $100 gets 20 red chips. He doesn't get $100 worth of reds. If you need to give him singles, you actually count out a full stack of red, and THEN change 1 or 2 of them for singles.

It's been a while since my last post; I've go to say, things have gotten considerably better.

The instructor is fastidious as ever but after seeing dealers perform at a few different casinos, I am convinced more than ever that her methodology is the correct one. At week's end, I would feel pretty bad about my performance but then, after going to a casino and observing some dealers, I would start to feel pretty good about myself.

Not surprisingly, the more I practice, the better I get; routine is replacing concentrated effort. Conversions/payouts make more sense and the manual dexterity is on the upswing.

I still have a long way to go before anyone could apply the adjective "good" to my performance; acceptable might be more like it--but it's a far cry from where I was one month ago.

All responses on this thread have been very much appreciated and helpful.

One thing is for sure, I find it a lot easier to play than to deal--I have a newfound appreciation for the other side of the table.