buzzpaff
buzzpaff
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
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September 15th, 2011 at 2:02:12 PM permalink
Correct sir. And as long as you say it is a "Companion" BJ bet, the emphasis is on BJ and people will think of it as a side bet.
Now Hedge blackjack or let me try and think of another. Oh My, well lets says SWITCH Blackjack.
The emphasis there is on a new form of BJ, not a sidebet
Can't speak for SWITCH but imagine that was the effect he desired.
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
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September 15th, 2011 at 3:51:13 PM permalink
In the UK the side bets that prove popular are those that have a chance of a reasonable payoff and don't affect the play of the main game. The only one I've seen that does affect play (in Belgium) is lucky 7s since with two 7s you might hit for the 777-bonus rather than split. I think the one with a jackpot for 4-Aces doesn't affect play since with two Aces, if the third card is an Ace you're bound to get a fourth card (you don't split against dealer Ace - I assume it doesn't pay AAxA as 3-aces otherwise you couldn't hit AA9).

My personal opinion is dealers want to get the option bets settled, either at the beginning before players draw cards (in BJ or Poker on your initial dealt ones) OR at the end when settling up all the bets (as in 3-card poker).

Personally if I'm playing an optional bet, it would be for fun and one that doesn't affect my main bet - for instance most Pai Gow bets pay on what cards you have not how you set them.

btw BJSwitch has a side bet based on your first four cards.
Lucky
Lucky
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September 15th, 2011 at 4:42:05 PM permalink
“Can you define a bit slower?? Numerically like hands per hours. Seriously, how many less hands that straight up BJ per hour? “

No, I can’t give you a precise HPH since I’ve not scientifically measured it. My comment was comparing the speed to 21 + 3 and not straight up BJ. I understand the objection of some for any BJ side bet because of the flow interruption. But to partially answer your question, the Lucky Stiff bet would entail one additional interruption after the initial deal (when losing bets and BJs are settled), which would be after the player completes his hand or after the dealer completes his hand, depending on whether you’re playing the ‘high side’ or ‘low side.’
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“And really cannot see benefit of hedging in a game that returns 99.4%! Cannot root for 7-A when I have a stiff, biggest drawback to me.”

On average, players get a lot of stiffs (nearly 40% of the time). I’ve seen players get the same stiff total multiple times in a row and for the most part they’re not calculating the math. Not arguing your point, just conveying the reality that most side bet players are looking for the added excitement and variance.

And you don’t have to root for a 7-A with a stiff; a dealer bust with an up card <6 still pays 2:1.
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“My personal opinion is dealers want to get the option bets settled, either at the beginning before players draw cards (in BJ or Poker on your initial dealt ones) OR at the end when settling up all the bets (as in 3-card poker).”

Yes, charliepatrick, that is one of my greatest concerns. Even though BJ bets are settled in the middle of the game when a player busts, the Stiff bet is the only optional BJ bet that I know of that also ‘pays’ in the middle. Thanks for your input.
"Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." -- Winston Churchill
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
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September 15th, 2011 at 5:58:55 PM permalink
btw BJSwitch has a side bet based on your first four cards.

But to establish that side bet SWITCH had to invent a game where a player had 4 cards first !
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
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September 15th, 2011 at 7:10:37 PM permalink
While you may prefer to compete against other games, your success will be measured against BJ tables. You have obviously invested a lot of money in this, why not buy a shoe, 6 decks of cards, invite some friend over who promise to act like they are betting real money ( they won't but you can try ). See the difference in hands dealt per hour. Switch has 8 hands going at a full table, BEAUTIFUL.
I mean actually make change for side bets, do the payoffs etc, then re-evaluate your game. Pay special attention to how a dealer might view the game.
Are you going to demonstrate the game for a distributor or have someone deal, preferably someone you pay who has dealt the game before ? If dealers don't like the game you are in BIG trouble. In 2001 saw Let It Ride and Digital 21 killed at the Isle of Capri , who was the 800 lb gorilla at the time.
How many spots were you figuring on your ideal table, 5, 6 , or 7 ?
Lucky
Lucky
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September 15th, 2011 at 9:15:59 PM permalink
Good advice and I have play tested as you suggest; just haven't precisely measured the hands per hour for one, two, three, four, five or six players. I have viewed the game from the dealer's perspective. I agree that's most important. Matter of fact, I think it's important enough that I've invested the last few months training and then dealing part-time in the Tunica, MS market - mostly blackjack and my casino's sole BJ sidebet. I wanted to gain insight into the dealer perspective and the actual mentality 'inside the pit.' My dealing experience has been very enlightening in that respect. (I plan to finish my short dealing career at the end of this month, in time to attend G2E for a day or so before returning home to West Texas.)

So as a result of my dealing experience, I feel equipped to demonstrate the game myself to casino personnel and/or a distributor, although I haven't approached a distributor to this point. On that score, I'd like to make some contacts on the trip to LV next month and would certainly appreciate any guidance, advice or leads/introductions in that regard.

My layout design is for 6 spots, which I consider ideal for this game.

By the way buzz, you are correct in that there's a significant difference in the speed of straight blackjack and any BJ sidebet game, even the simple front-end ones such as 21 + 3. The players take more time placing their bets and the dealer takes more time casing the bets. Then, as in the case of 21 + 3 and most of the other popular side bets, the dealer must evaluate and reslove the side bets after the initial deal, which can be very quick with losers but also time consuming with winners (cutting out checks and making payouts). Not to mention that after the side bets are settled, the dealer must return to the flow of blackjack and not forget such things as checking for blackjacks on a ten up, sometimes amidst the loud excitement of some players after winning the early payout. As smooth and simple as it might look to the players, there is a difference in the complexity from the dealer's side. And as you've very clearly stated or implied, every level of complexity comes with a cost.
"Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." -- Winston Churchill
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
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September 15th, 2011 at 9:23:57 PM permalink
Been there, done that LOL Was a BJ dealer in 1991. Congrats on your invaluable dealing experience.
If you do get to demonstrate your game, expect somebody to be timing and looking for at least 60 hands at a full table.
Weekends are when the casino's make money with full tables. Weekdays just pay the nut. The earlier you can pay it, the more profitable you are. Same rules in pool halls and bars too. LOL
Lucky
Lucky
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September 16th, 2011 at 8:54:58 AM permalink
So I see we have the dealer experience in common. Yes, it's invaluable for someone designing a table game. Security and other issues come more clearly into focus to be sure. Thanks for your advice and other input. Maybe we can meet face-to-face if you're planning to be at G2E this year?
"Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." -- Winston Churchill
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
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September 16th, 2011 at 9:27:01 PM permalink
" In my play testing, though, it was interesting to see how players actually seemed to hope for a stiff hand to get the chance for a multiple payout. Of course, they weren't playing with 'real' money."

That's the real problem in testing a game with play money. Even in poker dealer's school, you could not get students to act reasonable, so there was hardly ever a side pot, everybody stayed to the river, etc. Sure screws up the results. If I can get away from school, I will be at G2E. Hope to see the many faces behind this forum. That being said, in all honesty. I see your "game" as a
dismal side bet, not a companion bet. GOOD LUCK
Paradigm
Paradigm
Joined: Feb 24, 2011
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September 18th, 2011 at 1:37:57 PM permalink
The proof on this bet will come if it gets on the floor. I think player education on this bet is going to be key.....players are going to assume Lucky Stiff is a long shot, high house edge side bet like so many others they are accustom to seeing.

If they understand that it is a 3% house edge bet with a 40% qualification and 20% hit rate as opposed to a 24% house edge bet that hits less frequently, it has a much better chance of succeeding.

A different type of side bet is why Lucky Lucky was able to make inroads into the BJ sid bet space that was dominated by Lucky Ladies, it was a different kind of side bet proposition and I think Lucky Stiff is a similar "different proposition" and one that is focused on the play of the BJ hand not simply getting a particular set of "Lucky Cards" on the initial deal.

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