Name the Limits of Fair Play

Quote: Paigowdan

Okay, now, is the table games dealer an integral part of the table game experience? If he's gracious, patient, entertaining and accurate, does he deserve a tip, like a waiter?

As I stated in my comments, I always place bets for the dealers, regardless of my winning or not. It's not much, but it's there.

I don't tip the security guy who makes the place run smoothly. Or the Pit Boss. Or the Casino manager, or the back room slot mechanic, or the cashiers.

Cess,
Great, very fine! I was begining to adandon hope...:)

Quote: Paigowdan

One of the reasons I was a bit fired up a couple of days ago was because I was punched (in the back) after calling a seven-out on a crap game, while dumping the bowl, by a guy walking off broke. The other side of the pit was busy, and this guy just took a shot (literally) while walking away. Okay, a little sting and a backache. No boxman on the game, he just walks away. The other dealers cringed, and said forget about.

Verbal abuse is one thing. But physical abuse?

You should NOT have been forced to stand there and take it.

You've GOT to ask management what you should do if it happens again.

Frankly, I would have moved the working stacks and dice bowl towards the other dealers, then walked off to confront the guy and turn him over to security.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Verbal abuse is one thing. But physical abuse?

I think you can get everyone here to agree that you should not have to tolerate that!

I am sure when confronted the coward would have said it was an accident !

Wicked Witch of the West: Well, my little pretty, I can cause accidents, too!

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Frankly, I would have moved the working stacks and dice bowl towards the other dealers, then walked off to confront the guy and turn him over to security.

Oh, some dealers would, - and be fired for leaving the game and causing a scene. I was steaming, but took it and dropped it. Low-level Crap games are the worst.

Last night a player tried to reach in and pull back a losing field bet (wtf!!) on an 8 rolled, but I was faster, and pissed. So the same guy walks right up to the shooter and gets right in his face, shouting "you suck, asshole!" Foormen were involed, calling security, but he left before security came. I do prefer to be on Pai Gow...

Quote: Paigowdan

Oh, some dealers would, - and be fired for leaving the game and causing a scene. I was steaming, but took it and dropped it. Low-level Crap games are the worst...

Yeah, well, keep it in the back of your mind for the day when you're ready to hang up the dealer hat.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Yeah, well, keep it in the back of your mind for the day when you're ready to hang up the dealer hat.

you're starting to bring to mind the exit from the plane on the escape chute and all that. What would be the equivalent? [g]

Quote: odiousgambit

you're starting to bring to mind the exit from the plane on the escape chute and all that. What would be the equivalent?

No, not at all leaving like that.
By far I like most of our players, - and most of our supervision. And I always listen and obey them.
If I had the resources (and perhaps I will in the near future), I would retire on the very best of terms, quietly, happily, and friendly, no reason not to.

I have my day time business office for the game development work, and would rather work on that end of the business than calling dice and pitching cards to pay the bills until I get there.

For the most part, it's been great, in spite of exposure to a lot of bad apple gamblers.
Gambling can bring out the worst in people, and combined with alcohol, forget about it at times.

Quote: Paigowdan

Casinos don't do everything legally possible to take money. They can't. They used to try - in the "dirty old school days."
They now have to follow a huge number of additional guidelines to maintain their repuation, the spector of fair play, the reality of decency and fair play, and to the roughest and toughest crowd called gamblers.

Can you give some examples?

Quote: FleaStiff

Capping a bet... newbies don't even know its wrong.

I was once dealing a BJ game at my local pub for me and the guys at my table. Just a friendly game. We were using the sugar packets on the table for chips. No real money was involved. This other guy comes up to join the game and I pulled out some sugar packets from the dispenser to give him a stack of "chips". Every time he had a good hand he would try capping his bet. I tried explaining to him that this was not allowed, but he kept doing it. I finally gave up but would only pay him one packet instead of two.

Quote: Paigowdan

No, not at all leaving like that.
By far I like most of our players, - and most of our supervision. And I always listen and obey them.
If I had the resources (and perhaps I will in the near future), I would retire on the very best of terms, quietly, happily, and friendly, no reason not to.

I have my day time business office for the game development work, and would rather work on that end of the business than calling dice and pitching cards to pay the bills until I get there.

For the most part, it's been great, in spite of exposure to a lot of bad apple gamblers.
Gambling can bring out the worst in people, and combined with alcohol, forget about it at times.

Dan:

How would you break down the good vs the bad percentage wise? We players get grief from the bad apples too, but we have a lot more options in dealing with it. I've always thought that the casinos' responses to troublemakers were slow at best or in a lot of cases nonexistent.

Quote: Paigowdan

Casinos don't do everything legally possible to take money. They can't. They used to try - in the "dirty old school days."
They now have to follow a huge number of additional guidelines to maintain their repuation, the spector of fair play, the reality of decency and fair play, and to the roughest and toughest crowd called gamblers.

Quote: kp

Can you give some examples?

Yeah, I can.

1. Player "takes a shot" - for example, he hits his Blackjack hand and busts. He protests, saying "He didn't hit," or "didn't mean to hit," etc., when he did and lost. First time offense - even though it's clear he's lying, often (and I see it as routine) - the floor response is, "okay - we will give you it, we will give you a re-do." Casino rejects that income to provide some good faith sportsmanship to someone who is openly lying and taking a shot. Seen it a thousand times.
2. Player missets his Pai Gow hand. Instead of declaring a fouled hand, and taking the money (which are the rules), we give him a break. Go ahead, reset the hand. Lost income.
3. Free drinks. Some argue that it entices the player to gamble more if drunk - it may indeed - but most people who don't drink to get drunk at home or at a bar don't do so either at a casino. It's just free for being there, regardless of the accusations for the motives made, - as you are free to drink all the Pepsi, coffee, hot chocolate and water you want to also. And most people who would drink to get drunk would also get drunk when paying for it at a bar or at a liquor store, and when not as a courtesy.
4. Player gives a casino good play, and uses the casino as part of his entertainment budget. Casino gives the player comps: dinner, movie tickets, rooms, etc. Whether or not the player wins or loses.
- The player, if he wins can stiff the dealer, and often does. We say nothing, or at least it's officially stated by our works rules to say nothing. Lord knows I don't, I don't care, it all averages out. I'd be a fool to hurt my own feelings if someone else is cheap.
- If the same player who eats out at a restaurant were to go to the Maitre'd there and say, "Hey! I've eaten here five times in the last three months, give me a free meal tonight!" what would that manager say? Or were to go to a movie house and say the same thing "snap, snap, free tickets tonight." Certainly there are promos with many business, but not an official comp policy.

Quote: benbakdoff

Dan:

How would you break down the good vs the bad percentage wise? We players get grief from the bad apples too, but we have a lot more options in dealing with it. I've always thought that the casinos' responses to troublemakers were slow at best or in a lot of cases nonexistent.

Hard to say, but any ugly incident is a thorn in everyone's claw. A drop of poison spoils the gallon.

Low-stakes Crap games - the worst. A boxman helps a real lot.
Blackjack #2 - next worst.
Roulette - not bad, very social game, generally well-behaved, some shot-takers.
Three-card Poker, poker side games - well-behaved in general. Hole-carding is gone, as we do not deal out the dealer's hand until all players play or fold. Sorry, we had to do this.
Pai Gow Poker - VERY well behaved, almost never an incident.
Baccarat - very well behaved, also almost never an incident.

Dan -

I'm not sure, but I think KP was talking about examples of the rules the house has to follow - rules that didn't exist back in the old days of the mob run casinos.

After all, there's already plenty of examples of the kinds of crap that dealers, and the house, has to deal with.


KP -

Google is your friend. The Gaming Control Commissions are public entities with documents available on the internet.

I'm not privy to the house rules and legally as that involves the security department and the shift managers.

Aside from the dealers' rules of "no altercations with anyone at any time," - we just turn everything over, that isn't smooth-running play, over to the floor.

We're happy to keep it that simple. Problem player? Okay, fine, you handle it, boss....

Dan- all the examples you give are intended to make money for the house. Maybe not at that instant, but over the long run. They allow a player to reset a foul hand because it is worth more to them to keep that player happy than it is to take his $10. Taking that $10 will likely result in him not playing that game anymore. Imagine how many other strategy errors the player who sets a foul hand will make. Casinos give free drinks because overall they have figured out that by doing so they make more money than if they didn't. There is NO other reason casinos give out free drinks.

Casinos give free drinks because overall they have figured out that by doing so they make more money than if they didn't. There is NO other reason casinos give out free drinks.

Next you will tell me casino's actually try and make a profit ?? Gee I thought they just built those buildings, paid employees, taxes etc. just to give you something to bitch about !

Guardian of the Emerald City Gates: Oh, you're wasting my time!

Well...the same can be said for any good-faith gesture or kind deed carried out by any business operation, in any industry.
A 2-for-1 offering, a sneak preview, and all-you-can eat offering, etc.

We just cannot always slam Gaming operators for taking our business - and for buying our gaming products, math work, game designs, and support products.

I just can't imagine gun owners slamming Smith & Wesson, or damning the NRA, and saying we must vote for Charles Schumer to protect our right to bear arms.

Who here contributes to the AGA (American Gaming Association?)

Quote: buzzpaff

So I can conclude you don't tip the waitress either. Gee $10 every time you hit a royal flush and you hit one every week. Yet you are still playing quarters, And I am supposed to believe that ROFLMAO

I'm not talking about my own play. I was giving an THEORETICAL example. LEARN TO READ. The odds of drawing a royal flush is about 40,391:1 and in my example, the player is doing 8 hours of play a day at 15 draws per minute. That's 7,200 draws a day or 36,000 per week. So, on a given week, the expected number of royal flushes is about 0.9. Hence the tip figure.

I was trying to explain why one might not be inclined to tip. If you are at the casino to be entertained and hit a royal once (which is my lifetime total), go ahead and tip. If you are a professional gambler, tipping takes away from your total. Similarly, if you are professional restaurant reviewer, as a reviewer, you might be inclined to tip the same on every meal. For me, when I am out for dinner with work, I cannot tip over a guideline amount (otherwise I don't get reimbursed).

Quote: buzzpaff

Casinos give free drinks because overall they have figured out that by doing so they make more money than if they didn't. There is NO other reason casinos give out free drinks.

Next you will tell me casino's actually try and make a profit ?? Gee I thought they just built those buildings, paid employees, taxes etc. just to give you something to bitch about !

Guardian of the Emerald City Gates: Oh, you're wasting my time!

I believe that you're from such a low-level of the gambling community that most of these threads rapidy confuse you into making corny statements.

What has that to do with you being so cheap and stiffing dealers ?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

You should NOT have been forced to stand there and take it.

Agreed.

Quote:

You've GOT to ask management what you should do if it happens again.

What anyone should do is have security detain the guy, if possible, then call the cops and press charges for assault.