Laundering cash to check at table games.

Quote: darkoz

Based on personal knowledge I don't believe that is followed.

Quote: DRich

Quote: darkoz

I guess this question is for DRich. He seems the expert at cash reporting.

So what happens if someone puts $3000 in a slot, plays for half an hour and breaks relatively even, cashing out $3000.

Let's say they return later and does the same thing.

And this goes on for a total of four times.

Now the player has done $12,000 of tito, but lost nor gained any money.

Is that considered a transaction over ten grand?

Does a transaction have to be a loss or win of over ten K to trigger a CTR or just money flow.

It seems ridiculous for someone to have a CTR filed and they exit with exactly the same amount they entered

Thanks
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That should definitely generate a CTR since you deposited over $10k in cash into the machine. The reporting regulations do not care where the cash came from.
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Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: DRich

Quote: darkoz

I guess this question is for DRich. He seems the expert at cash reporting.

So what happens if someone puts $3000 in a slot, plays for half an hour and breaks relatively even, cashing out $3000.

Let's say they return later and does the same thing.

And this goes on for a total of four times.

Now the player has done $12,000 of tito, but lost nor gained any money.

Is that considered a transaction over ten grand?

Does a transaction have to be a loss or win of over ten K to trigger a CTR or just money flow.

It seems ridiculous for someone to have a CTR filed and they exit with exactly the same amount they entered

Thanks
link to original post

That should definitely generate a CTR since you deposited over $10k in cash into the machine. The reporting regulations do not care where the cash came from.
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SHOULD is the key word. If you are not using a card How are they tracking?

Even if you are using a card and a guy cycles in over 10k in cash is that normally generating a CTR?
I can't even tell you the number of times I have put in 10k. Are they like, "oh this guy again, he is a legitimate gambler... next case"?

Numerous Advantage Players are putting in and cashing out 10's of thousands daily. Other than the sports structuring case and one other special circumstance in the '90s where suspected cheating was a concern. I have yet to hear anything about anyone knowingly being investigated or questioned by authorities. That stuff only seems to come up after the casinos realize they are being advantage-played.

Okay, so one might say that person has a history of gambling and they aren't concerned, they have invesgated that person numerous times, however, new guys come in all the time, and people get hired by on, people who don't have a history of gambling or a job/bank balance/lifestyle to support 10's of thousands being put in machines.

After CTR and SARs are reported does anyone know what happens?
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Quote: AxelWolf

SHOULD is the key word. If you are not using a card How are they tracking?

Even if you are using a card and a guy cycles in over 10k in cash is that normally generating a CTR?
I can't even tell you the number of times I have put in 10k. Are they like, "oh this guy again, he is a legitimate gambler... next case"?

Quote: ChumpChange

I saw one guy playing bubble craps and he kept putting $200 cash into the machine and trying to double his money playing the Don'ts. So he'd take his $400 TITO to the cage and he kept doing this every half hour for awhile. That's one way to rack up the credit meter at the cage by cashing out too many TITOs. The cage will take your players card and scan it before cashing out your TITO for you. I assume the cage computers will keep track of how much cash you've taken from them in a gaming day. But they won't ask for your Player's card if you just come up there with less than some amount say $2.5K or more/or less. The ATM kiosks never ask for your card AFAIK, so you just hope they don't give you $2.5K worth of $20 bills.

If you just keep playing with the same TITOs and never go to the cage but once and cash out less than $10K there shouldn't be a problem. Now how they keep track of your cash deposited into the slot machines adding up to $10K, that's new to me. I figure if I have way over $10K of TITOs in it won't count, but throw in the Benjis like that those will count.
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Quote: DRich

Quote: AxelWolf

SHOULD is the key word. If you are not using a card How are they tracking?

Even if you are using a card and a guy cycles in over 10k in cash is that normally generating a CTR?
I can't even tell you the number of times I have put in 10k. Are they like, "oh this guy again, he is a legitimate gambler... next case"?

Of course all casinos don't follow the rules but even small casinos I worked with definitely did file CTR's every time a carded player put in over $10k in cash. We would also occasionally watch security video to try and identify non-carded players since we had a date/time stamp for every bill being inserted to a slot machine.
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Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: DRich

Quote: AxelWolf

SHOULD is the key word. If you are not using a card How are they tracking?

Even if you are using a card and a guy cycles in over 10k in cash is that normally generating a CTR?
I can't even tell you the number of times I have put in 10k. Are they like, "oh this guy again, he is a legitimate gambler... next case"?

Of course all casinos don't follow the rules but even small casinos I worked with definitely did file CTR's every time a carded player put in over $10k in cash. We would also occasionally watch security video to try and identify non-carded players since we had a date/time stamp for every bill being inserted to a slot machine.
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Speaking of small places, do you think places like The Brewery and other places. I know you played some $5+ plays at(I forget the name) do you think they were filing CTR's? I seem to remember you had a 10k loss limit anyway.

Do you think most gaming bars, and small places do or don't do it? Often, religiously, sometimes, rarely?

If one puts in 6k in cash and loses $5,875, but then they hit a jackpot for 8k and they continue to lose 5k of that 8k....do they count that for CTR reporting even though they know it's just been won? I assume they are supposed to, but I think they don't in many cases.
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Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: DRich

Quote: AxelWolf

SHOULD is the key word. If you are not using a card How are they tracking?

Even if you are using a card and a guy cycles in over 10k in cash is that normally generating a CTR?
I can't even tell you the number of times I have put in 10k. Are they like, "oh this guy again, he is a legitimate gambler... next case"?

Of course all casinos don't follow the rules but even small casinos I worked with definitely did file CTR's every time a carded player put in over $10k in cash. We would also occasionally watch security video to try and identify non-carded players since we had a date/time stamp for every bill being inserted to a slot machine.
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Speaking of small places, do you think places like The Brewery and other places. I know you played some $5+ plays at(I forget the name) do you think they were filing CTR's? I seem to remember you had a 10k loss limit anyway.

Do you think most gaming bars, and small places do or don't do it? Often, religiously, sometimes, rarely?

If one puts in 6k in cash and loses $5,875, but then they hit a jackpot for 8k and they continue to lose 5k of that 8k....do they count that for CTR reporting even though they know it's just been won? I assume they are supposed to, but I think they don't in many cases.
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Quote: darkoz

I therefore challenge the belief that its specifically cash in and cash out as well as specifically losses. It appears to be specifically done by casinos for winning only.

Quote: AxelWolf

After CTR and SARs are reported does anyone know what happens?
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Quote: DRich

Quote: darkoz

I therefore challenge the belief that its specifically cash in and cash out as well as specifically losses. It appears to be specifically done by casinos for winning only.

It has zero to do with wins and losses. I will never argue that there are places not following the rules, many don't.
I have filed thousands of CTR's and never once did I tell someone that I was filing one on them. The majority of people would never know.
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Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: AxelWolf

After CTR and SARs are reported does anyone know what happens?
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What's the difference between ctr and sar?
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Quote: 100xOdds

would putting in $10k+ worth of tito's into machines throughout the day cause a CTR?

Quote: DRich

Quote: 100xOdds

would putting in $10k+ worth of tito's into machines throughout the day cause a CTR?

Absolutely not. CTR's are for cash only.
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Quote: DRich

Quote: darkoz

I therefore challenge the belief that its specifically cash in and cash out as well as specifically losses. It appears to be specifically done by casinos for winning only.

It has zero to do with wins and losses. I will never argue that there are places not following the rules, many don't. I have filed thousands of CTR's and never once did I tell someone that I was filing one on them. The majority of people would never know. BTW, you can file a CTR without SS# although we would generally do a search on the player to see if they had collected a jackpot in the past and would grab it from the W2G if they had. Most players gambling $10k a day have hit jackpots at some point.
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Quote: MDawg

Quote: DRich

Quote: darkoz

I therefore challenge the belief that its specifically cash in and cash out as well as specifically losses. It appears to be specifically done by casinos for winning only.

It has zero to do with wins and losses. I will never argue that there are places not following the rules, many don't. I have filed thousands of CTR's and never once did I tell someone that I was filing one on them. The majority of people would never know. BTW, you can file a CTR without SS# although we would generally do a search on the player to see if they had collected a jackpot in the past and would grab it from the W2G if they had. Most players gambling $10k a day have hit jackpots at some point.
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Correct, whether or not a CTR is issued has only to do with > $10K cash in or out over 24 hour period.

However, if the casino is willing to issue a check, and the payout would be > $10K, that eliminates at least the outgoing CTR. And casinos are not supposed to issue a check in lieu of cash for chips except for either a verified win, or return of non-cash front money.

For a credit only player like me, where no front money is involved, I can get a check for my chips only for a verified win.


By the way, although CTRs have to do with "cash or cash instruments," you might be surprised to know that for example casinos won't accept money orders to say, pay off markers. This is because of their compliance requirements where they must verify that the person or entity paying off the marker is either the individual who has the credit line, or a 100% owned by that individual entity that their compliance department has verified as being solely owned by the individual. Money orders can't really be traced back to any particular person, so they won't accept them for marker payments.

This is along the same lines of why your stock broker, back when paper checks were the thing, would not accept a cashier's check, only a personal check. Sounds odd, but it has to do with Compliance, and matching the funds to the account owner.

Casinos will accept cashier's checks, but only if the remitter is either the individual who is getting the credit for the deposit, or a wholly owned entity. (And many casinos lately won't accept business account payments at all, only individual.)
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Quote: MDawg

Just deposit your cash into her bank account.

Oops...nowadays most banks won't even allow that, won't allow anyone but the account holder to make in person deposits. Ah, that pesky Compliance Dept.
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Quote: MDawg

You have to understand what's going on in order to understand that you're not "circumventing" anything by sending her money via PayPal.
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Quote: billryan

Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: AxelWolf

After CTR and SARs are reported does anyone know what happens?
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What's the difference between ctr and sar?
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A CTR is a routine government form that is filed and forgotten. A Suspicious Activity Report is a non-routine government form that is supposed to be followed up on. There is no reason to avoid or worry about CTRs if you are not doing anything wrong. SARs are not something you want to have on your record.
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Quote: MDawg

In this matter your reasoning is completely off base.
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Quote: MDawg

Just deposit your cash into her bank account.

Oops...nowadays most banks won't even allow that, won't allow anyone but the account holder to make in person deposits. Ah, that pesky Compliance Dept.
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Quote: MDawg

If you seriously think so, it's not worth the words to try to convince you otherwise.

You may not walk into the bank to deposit cash into her account. You may give her cash to deposit it herself. There is a difference, but, you can't see it, apparently.
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Quote: darkoz

Quote: DRich

Quote: 100xOdds

would putting in $10k+ worth of tito's into machines throughout the day cause a CTR?

Absolutely not. CTR's are for cash only.
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This is of course why the casinos are ignoring this for the most part.

They would have to follow every single patron AND check if it's voucher or cash and keep a running log especially if they are playing unrated.

It's a Herculean task they just can't do. They know it. And probably the government knows it as well.
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Quote: MDawg

Just deposit your cash into her bank account.

Oops...nowadays most banks won't even allow that, won't allow anyone but the account holder to make in person deposits. Ah, that pesky Compliance Dept.
link to original post

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: MDawg

Just deposit your cash into her bank account.

Oops...nowadays most banks won't even allow that, won't allow anyone but the account holder to make in person deposits. Ah, that pesky Compliance Dept.
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Must be a rule that changes from bank to bank. On more than one occasion, the upstairs tenants pay their rent in cash and my co-resident swings by the bank the next day on the way to work to deposit into my bank account (only my name on the account) if it's more timely for her to do so instead of me. But, then again, we're not talking a whole lot (less than $2K each month, depending on if they own back rent and what their portion of the water bill is).

We also have a lot of college kids getting cash deposited by their parents as well as a state that has a lot of people with more than two nickels to rub together, spread out around the whole state. Having someone else deposit cash into your account isn't all that uncommon around here.

I am however willing to defer to other people's experience on this, as I don't have a dog in this fight.
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Quote: DRich

Quote: darkoz

Quote: DRich

Quote: 100xOdds

would putting in $10k+ worth of tito's into machines throughout the day cause a CTR?

Absolutely not. CTR's are for cash only.
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This is of course why the casinos are ignoring this for the most part.

They would have to follow every single patron AND check if it's voucher or cash and keep a running log especially if they are playing unrated.

It's a Herculean task they just can't do. They know it. And probably the government knows it as well.
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If the player is carded it is simple. Every bill you deposit is already attached to your name if you are carded, Every morning I would pull up and run a report for each of our properties and it would tell me every single dollar inserted for the carded player. Obviously, I would just limit the report to those that inserted a total of over $10k for that day. I literally ran that report every single day that I was at work.

Non-carded players are a lot more difficult and I would guess that most do not get CTR's filed on them.
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Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: MDawg

Just deposit your cash into her bank account.

Oops...nowadays most banks won't even allow that, won't allow anyone but the account holder to make in person deposits. Ah, that pesky Compliance Dept.
link to original post

Must be a rule that changes from bank to bank. On more than one occasion, the upstairs tenants pay their rent in cash and my co-resident swings by the bank the next day on the way to work to deposit into my bank account (only my name on the account) if it's more timely for her to do so instead of me. But, then again, we're not talking a whole lot (less than $2K each month, depending on if they own back rent and what their portion of the water bill is).

We also have a lot of college kids getting cash deposited by their parents as well as a state that has a lot of people with more than two nickels to rub together, spread out around the whole state. Having someone else deposit cash into your account isn't all that uncommon around here.

I am however willing to defer to other people's experience on this, as I don't have a dog in this fight.
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Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: MDawg

Just deposit your cash into her bank account.

Oops...nowadays most banks won't even allow that, won't allow anyone but the account holder to make in person deposits. Ah, that pesky Compliance Dept.
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I remember back in the day my longer-term girlfriends would freely deposit money into my bank accounts.

Then one day my GF (now wife) was told she couldn't do that anymore. Nowadays, anyone can deposit into your account with your bank card at the ATM.
link to original post

Quote: MDawg

Just deposit your cash into her bank account.

Oops...nowadays most banks won't even allow that, won't allow anyone but the account holder to make in person deposits. Ah, that pesky Compliance Dept.
link to original post

Quote: MDawg

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: MDawg

Just deposit your cash into her bank account.

Oops...nowadays most banks won't even allow that, won't allow anyone but the account holder to make in person deposits. Ah, that pesky Compliance Dept.
link to original post

I remember back in the day my longer-term girlfriends would freely deposit money into my bank accounts.

Then one day my GF (now wife) was told she couldn't do that anymore. Nowadays, anyone can deposit into your account with your bank card at the ATM.
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Chase I believe was one of the first to eliminate the cash into someone else's account deposits, then gradually all of the banks I know or can think of followed the same. As Geno mentioned, I used to have tenants deposit checks into my account too, until it was disallowed.

I actually don't like the way things are now, in one respect, as far as tenants paying with apps like CashApp and Venmo - if you get to the point where the tenant is going to get evicted, during the eviction process you have to reject or return any electronic payments unless you want to abandon the eviction process.

AxelWolf, are you telling us about women depositing money INTO your accounts for a reason? 😊 😇


I'm impressed actually.
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Quote: DRich

That reminds me of something we used to do when given a bad check. For example if someone writes you a check for $500 and they know they don't have that much so they think it won't go through. Let's say they had $480 in their account so obviously the $500 check won't clear. If you have a bank teller or manager at that bank that likes you they can tell you how much that person is short so your check won't go through. A nice teller or banker may clue you in that if they had another $20 in that account your check would clear. We would just then deposit $20 of our own money into that persons account and then we could cash the $500 check. Obviously we lose $20 on the deal but that is much better than losing $500. the person that wrote the $500 check is now pissed because we drained their account and they never intended to pay us.
.
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Quote: MDawg

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: MDawg

Just deposit your cash into her bank account.

Oops...nowadays most banks won't even allow that, won't allow anyone but the account holder to make in person deposits. Ah, that pesky Compliance Dept.
link to original post

I remember back in the day my longer-term girlfriends would freely deposit money into my bank accounts.

Then one day my GF (now wife) was told she couldn't do that anymore. Nowadays, anyone can deposit into your account with your bank card at the ATM.
link to original post

Chase I believe was one of the first to eliminate the cash into someone else's account deposits, then gradually all of the banks I know or can think of followed the same. As Geno mentioned, I used to have tenants deposit checks into my account too, until it was disallowed.

I actually don't like the way things are now, in one respect, as far as tenants paying with apps like CashApp and Venmo - if you get to the point where the tenant is going to get evicted, during the eviction process you have to reject or return any electronic payments unless you want to abandon the eviction process.

AxelWolf, are you telling us about women depositing money INTO your accounts for a reason? 😊 😇


I'm impressed actually.
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Quote: darkoz

Wouldn't proof you rejected the payment work in the tenants favor.

My experience with eviction from the tenants perspective (not me but I have helped family and friends going through it) is that the judge will Try to set up a payment plan.

Proof the payment was attempted and refused by the landlord won't get that person evicted unless you have other circumstances like noise nuisance or owning pets that Aren't allowed etc.

And yes my experience is in NY so maybe it's different in other states.
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Quote: MDawg

Quote: darkoz

Wouldn't proof you rejected the payment work in the tenants favor.

My experience with eviction from the tenants perspective (not me but I have helped family and friends going through it) is that the judge will Try to set up a payment plan.

Proof the payment was attempted and refused by the landlord won't get that person evicted unless you have other circumstances like noise nuisance or owning pets that Aren't allowed etc.

And yes my experience is in NY so maybe it's different in other states.
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It depends on the timing of the payment and the amount.

Let's say a 3 Day Notice to Pay or Quit for a certain dollar amount is given. During those 3 days, you, the landlord, must accept payment in full if tendered. You may reject partial payment, or accept it and present a new 3 Day Notice for the balance still owed.

But once those 3 days have passed, the lease is forfeit and you are under no obligation to accept any payment. But if you do accept anything, the process has to start all over again.


And if you're talking about a judge's involvement, then that is after the 3 Day Notice has passed and it remains unpaid for the full amount due. Once the unlawful detainer (eviction lawsuit) is filed, too, the lease is forfeit and you do not have to accept anything.

Now, there are some new laws that apply or applied during Covid times, and those do change things some.
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Quote: darkoz

Quote: MDawg

Quote: darkoz

Wouldn't proof you rejected the payment work in the tenants favor.

My experience with eviction from the tenants perspective (not me but I have helped family and friends going through it) is that the judge will Try to set up a payment plan.

Proof the payment was attempted and refused by the landlord won't get that person evicted unless you have other circumstances like noise nuisance or owning pets that Aren't allowed etc.

And yes my experience is in NY so maybe it's different in other states.
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It depends on the timing of the payment and the amount.

Let's say a 3 Day Notice to Pay or Quit for a certain dollar amount is given. During those 3 days, you, the landlord, must accept payment in full if tendered. You may reject partial payment, or accept it and present a new 3 Day Notice for the balance still owed.

But once those 3 days have passed, the lease is forfeit and you are under no obligation to accept any payment. But if you do accept anything, the process has to start all over again.


And if you're talking about a judge's involvement, then that is after the 3 Day Notice has passed and it remains unpaid for the full amount due. Once the unlawful detainer (eviction lawsuit) is filed, too, the lease is forfeit and you do not have to accept anything.

Now, there are some new laws that apply or applied during Covid times, and those do change things some.
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Well I do know NY is different.

Most evictions take over three MONTHS.

For a few years landlord tried to evade this by insisting on three months security deposit plus first month rent so new tenants had to come up with four months of rent just to get an apartment. The landlords felt if they had to spend ninety days evicting and the tenants didn't pay they had the security to cover it.

But that got struck down. Few tenants can come up with four months rent upfront and the courts didn't let fly this unsanctioned method of skirting the eviction process.

NY is definitely a tenants rights locale. A judge oversees all evictions. You have to serve tenants and give them due in court. And judges are lenient on tenants because of housing issues here.
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Quote: MDawg

Wow but the guy's gotta be pretty scraping the bottom of the barrel if his bank won't even cover a check that will result in a $20. overdraft.

Quote: jjjoooggg

The bank interviewed mom. And I just got off phone interview with our bank. They were investigating an increase of cash deposits in July. The deposits were not 10k or more. But an accumulation in a month. We have the slowest sales in our history. I told her that these deposits are low and not abnormal. We had a long discussion. I am guessing, someone made a complaint. Which has happened before. We have never laundered money or dealt drugs. We have been in the restaurant for 60 years. So it goes to say that even if your deposits are below 10k, an SAR can be reported and acted upon.

Bookkeeper just said july was slowest month.
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Quote: darkoz

Quote: jjjoooggg

The bank interviewed mom. And I just got off phone interview with our bank. They were investigating an increase of cash deposits in July. The deposits were not 10k or more. But an accumulation in a month. We have the slowest sales in our history. I told her that these deposits are low and not abnormal. We had a long discussion. I am guessing, someone made a complaint. Which has happened before. We have never laundered money or dealt drugs. We have been in the restaurant for 60 years. So it goes to say that even if your deposits are below 10k, an SAR can be reported and acted upon.

Bookkeeper just said july was slowest month.
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The problem is most bank employees are just idiots trained badly.

They're told look out for XYZ so when they see W, they go that must be included as well.

The worst example was a few years ago when they got a man locked up for passing a phony check. Only it was a real check. The guy was in lockup for half a week, had his car repossessed, lost his job and apartment (the check was held by police as evidence for a long time, first for being fake then as part of evidence for a false police report and it was his onky means of paying his bills once he lost his job.
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